Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network

[SupZ]

Hi Ohad,

is there any benefit by transferring our AGRS to you to store? Is that even a thing or did I miss understood?

[ohad]

Hi Ohad,

is there any benefit by transferring our AGRS to you to store? Is that even a thing or did I miss understood?

if you lock the tokens until the final coins will be ready (can take +1y, no date yet) then you get %17.7 more tokens (equivalent to 15% discount)

[SupZ]

Hi Ohad,

is there any benefit by transferring our AGRS to you to store? Is that even a thing or did I miss understood?

if you lock the tokens until the final coins will be ready (can take +1y, no date yet) then you get %17.7 more tokens (equivalent to 15% discount)

And how do you lock them?
Sending them to you?

[ohad]

Hi Ohad,

is there any benefit by transferring our AGRS to you to store? Is that even a thing or did I miss understood?

if you lock the tokens until the final coins will be ready (can take +1y, no date yet) then you get %17.7 more tokens (equivalent to 15% discount)

And how do you lock them?
Sending them to you?

yes, can coordinate by email ohad@idni.org
i forgot to mention another advantage, which is that those tokens will be counted for the sake of wholesale discounts in future purchases

[kjn311]

I just need to know the planned consensus. PoW, PoS or remain a token?

[ohad]

I just need to know the planned consensus. PoW, PoS or remain a token?

we will collaboratively altogether take this decision over a semi-centralized alpha version of tau

[MrWhiteBites]

Bittrex Wallet Maintenance.  IS there a update / development? 

[ohad]

Bittrex Wallet Maintenance.  IS there a update / development? 

no. technical issue on bittrex' side, they're working on it

[MrWhiteBites]

Bittrex Wallet Maintenance.  IS there a update / development? 

no. technical issue on bittrex' side, they're working on it

Ah, thank you.   

[dmitryshech]

The "tau" or "root" team will define the rules of changing the rules?

will define the code of the platform itself.
changing the rules is a mechanism to occur in all teams over tau.

The very first of those rules will be defined from alpha?

on our new design, all rules can be changed whatsoever in case of consensus, no matter whether they contradict an old rule or not. this is a deeper level of self-amendment comparing to the initial design. you can even replace the whole tau's code, the logic, everything.

If the "tau" or "root" team will define the code of the platform itself, then I did't get if that mechanism of changing the rules occurs in all teams except "root"? Changes in the rules of particular team by consensus there some how influence the "root"- the whole platform?
Can you provide some very simple use case example? Maybe even with comparison of same use case in Etherium, if it even can be compared.

[lordoliver]

Hi Ohad,

is there any benefit by transferring our AGRS to you to store? Is that even a thing or did I miss understood?

if you lock the tokens until the final coins will be ready (can take +1y, no date yet) then you get %17.7 more tokens (equivalent to 15% discount)

And how do you lock them?
Sending them to you?

yes, can coordinate by email ohad@idni.org
i forgot to mention another advantage, which is that those tokens will be counted for the sake of wholesale discounts in future purchases

I hold your tokens now for more than a year. I won't sell them now for sure. Of course I want to put them anywhere, where I can get a higher %. But whats the point of that emailing thing and transfering back and forth later. That sounds so unbelievable unprofessional... why don't you just do a snapshot and anyone who doesn't move the coins for one year will get it...

[ohad]

Hi Ohad,

is there any benefit by transferring our AGRS to you to store? Is that even a thing or did I miss understood?

if you lock the tokens until the final coins will be ready (can take +1y, no date yet) then you get %17.7 more tokens (equivalent to 15% discount)

And how do you lock them?
Sending them to you?

yes, can coordinate by email ohad@idni.org
i forgot to mention another advantage, which is that those tokens will be counted for the sake of wholesale discounts in future purchases

I hold your tokens now for more than a year. I won't sell them now for sure. Of course I want to put them anywhere, where I can get a higher %. But whats the point of that emailing thing and transfering back and forth later. That sounds so unbelievable unprofessional... why don't you just do a snapshot and anyone who doesn't move the coins for one year will get it...

great idea! but can come in addition, not instead, because some people want to move between their own wallets from time to time.
we can set that when the final coins will be ready, addresses that hold the tokens, will get more coins, according to the so-called "coin days".
the numbers are obvious: we'll do it relatively to the 15% discount.
so, another way to get the 15% discount, is simply not to move your tokens from the 1st of march which is about two weeks from now (this doesn't hold for tokens held on bittrex). i'll write it publicly somewhere.

[ohad]

The "tau" or "root" team will define the rules of changing the rules?

will define the code of the platform itself.
changing the rules is a mechanism to occur in all teams over tau.

The very first of those rules will be defined from alpha?

on our new design, all rules can be changed whatsoever in case of consensus, no matter whether they contradict an old rule or not. this is a deeper level of self-amendment comparing to the initial design. you can even replace the whole tau's code, the logic, everything.

If the "tau" or "root" team will define the code of the platform itself, then I did't get if that mechanism of changing the rules occurs in all teams except "root"? Changes in the rules of particular team by consensus there some how influence the "root"- the whole platform?
Can you provide some very simple use case example? Maybe even with comparison of same use case in Etherium, if it even can be compared.

not sure i understood (maybe has to do with the rule-by-rule or contract-draft-by-draft as in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg17799590#msg17799590 recalling that replacing the whole contract draft is like replacing the whole client's code so it can be totally different),
every team can change their own rules, or equivalently their own [pre-]theory, and if the team happens to be designing code, then they can agree that the spec is ready and then synthesize code from the spec and run it. but they won't be able to change the code of the platform (tau) itself. for that, a specific team (root/tau) will be created.
the root team will have a huge influence on the platform, and theoretically they can destroy all other teams and the whole thing. if something is amendable, then it can change to something completely different.
to bootstrap final tau's process, we will have a team over the alpha that supports programs, and over it we will construct a self-amending decentralized program (tau), after we all take into considerations the security of the system. so the final construct will not begin empty as planned from the beginning, but on the other hand, it won't begin arbitrary, but begin with rules under consensus derived over previous alphas.
i don't think it's comparable to eth. eth is by no means self-defining or self-amending.

[ryvirath]

The "tau" or "root" team will define the rules of changing the rules?

will define the code of the platform itself.
changing the rules is a mechanism to occur in all teams over tau.

The very first of those rules will be defined from alpha?

on our new design, all rules can be changed whatsoever in case of consensus, no matter whether they contradict an old rule or not. this is a deeper level of self-amendment comparing to the initial design. you can even replace the whole tau's code, the logic, everything.

If the "tau" or "root" team will define the code of the platform itself, then I did't get if that mechanism of changing the rules occurs in all teams except "root"? Changes in the rules of particular team by consensus there some how influence the "root"- the whole platform?
Can you provide some very simple use case example? Maybe even with comparison of same use case in Etherium, if it even can be compared.

not sure i understood (maybe has to do with the rule-by-rule or contract-draft-by-draft as in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg17799590#msg17799590 recalling that replacing the whole contract draft is like replacing the whole client's code so it can be totally different),
every team can change their own rules, or equivalently their own [pre-]theory, and if the team happens to be designing code, then they can agree that the spec is ready and then synthesize code from the spec and run it. but they won't be able to change the code of the platform (tau) itself. for that, a specific team (root/tau) will be created.
the root team will have a huge influence on the platform, and theoretically they can destroy all other teams and the whole thing. if something is amendable, then it can change to something completely different.
to bootstrap final tau's process, we will have a team over the alpha that supports programs, and over it we will construct a self-amending decentralized program (tau), after we all take into considerations the security of the system. so the final construct will not begin empty as planned from the beginning, but on the other hand, it won't begin arbitrary, but begin with rules under consensus derived over previous alphas.
i don't think it's comparable to eth. eth is by no means self-defining or self-amending.

Maybe similar to Dfinity. It's Ethereum plus a new type of consensus mechanism plus the blockchain nervous system. The BNS is basically a super user AI (with op codes that can alter any parameters) coordinated by a liquid democracy/futarchy. I'm pretty excited about it. Reminded me a little of Tau.

[dmitryshech]

The "tau" or "root" team will define the rules of changing the rules?

will define the code of the platform itself.
changing the rules is a mechanism to occur in all teams over tau.

The very first of those rules will be defined from alpha?

on our new design, all rules can be changed whatsoever in case of consensus, no matter whether they contradict an old rule or not. this is a deeper level of self-amendment comparing to the initial design. you can even replace the whole tau's code, the logic, everything.

If the "tau" or "root" team will define the code of the platform itself, then I did't get if that mechanism of changing the rules occurs in all teams except "root"? Changes in the rules of particular team by consensus there some how influence the "root"- the whole platform?
Can you provide some very simple use case example? Maybe even with comparison of same use case in Etherium, if it even can be compared.

not sure i understood (maybe has to do with the rule-by-rule or contract-draft-by-draft as in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg17799590#msg17799590 recalling that replacing the whole contract draft is like replacing the whole client's code so it can be totally different),
every team can change their own rules, or equivalently their own [pre-]theory, and if the team happens to be designing code, then they can agree that the spec is ready and then synthesize code from the spec and run it. but they won't be able to change the code of the platform (tau) itself. for that, a specific team (root/tau) will be created.
the root team will have a huge influence on the platform, and theoretically they can destroy all other teams and the whole thing. if something is amendable, then it can change to something completely different.
to bootstrap final tau's process, we will have a team over the alpha that supports programs, and over it we will construct a self-amending decentralized program (tau), after we all take into considerations the security of the system. so the final construct will not begin empty as planned from the beginning, but on the other hand, it won't begin arbitrary, but begin with rules under consensus derived over previous alphas.
i don't think it's comparable to eth. eth is by no means self-defining or self-amending.

Maybe similar to Dfinity. It's Ethereum plus a new type of consensus mechanism plus the blockchain nervous system. The BNS is basically a super user AI (with op codes that can alter any parameters) coordinated by a liquid democracy/futarchy. I'm pretty excited about it. Reminded me a little of Tau.

Yes, it's understood that the self-defining and self-amending are the main thing here. But I refer to eth just in purpose of better understanding from my non tech beginner point of view. I am trying to visualize the tau without getting too much into how it technically happens.  Your example with facebook was very helpful for visualizing but facebook is also not self-defining and self-amending.

If you want the largest possible audience to actually read the paper it has to draw the right picture in target audence minds. I don't even understand in full how exactly etherium works but I for sure understand it better than tau for now, I understand the advantages of etherium and smart contracts and what it can bring to the world. After I got familiar with Tauchain I realized that there is a limitations in etherium, and tau is trying to brake those limitations. I am sure I am not alone at that level of understanding, the comment of ryvirath above proofs that.

Is it right to say that the "self-amending decentralized program (tau)" is equivalent of eth's virtual machine? Teams over tau can create smart contracts collaboratively in a very innovative way, using a new consensus mechanism (contract-draft-by-draft) that prevents paradoxes and contradictions. What happens next? How and where self-amending happens? How blockchain involved here? What is the structure?

Maybe you're right and eth it's not the right example, then what could be the right one? Nomic, the process of theory formation and so on it's very interesting but something is missing here, it should be warped in something that makes it sound simple. I am just trying to be helpful here and represent some fraction (maybe even significant one) of the target audience that going to read that paper.

[ohad]

Yes, it's understood that the self-defining and self-amending are the main thing here. But I refer to eth just in purpose of better understanding from my non tech beginner point of view. I am trying to visualize the tau without getting too much into how it technically happens.  Your example with facebook was very helpful for visualizing but facebook is also not self-defining and self-amending.

If you want the largest possible audience to actually read the paper it has to draw the right picture in target audence minds. I don't even understand in full how exactly etherium works but I for sure understand it better than tau for now, I understand the advantages of etherium and smart contracts and what it can bring to the world. After I got familiar with Tauchain I realized that there is a limitations in etherium, and tau is trying to brake those limitations. I am sure I am not alone at that level of understanding, the comment of ryvirath above proofs that.

eth is a system about coins and contracts. tau is something completely different. it has no coins or contracts, but is a platform that such things can be created over it (like agoras will be an economy over tau). more accurately, tau is a tool for collaborative definition of itself, no more and no less, and from there can evolve into anything.

Is it right to say that the "self-amending decentralized program (tau)" is equivalent of eth's virtual machine?

no. if there were already one truly collaboratively-self-amending piece of software, i wouldn't have to write tau

Teams over tau can create smart contracts collaboratively in a very innovative way,

tau is a tool for collaboratively forming theories and software, in the most general sense. nothing to do with coins/contracts specifically

using a new consensus mechanism (contract-draft-by-draft) that prevents paradoxes and contradictions.

the proposed mechanism is not the draft-by-draft example, but somewhere in the middle of the two examples. it's a very simple yet slightly ugly formula, i'll explain it in the presentation. what it aims to do is to calculate the precise core that all players agree on.

What happens next? How and where self-amending happens? How blockchain involved here? What is the structure?

blockchain is just for us to securely know "which rule came first". and this will be the main centralized aspect in the first alpha: a server that time-orders messages. afterwards we'll collaboratively move into a fully decentralized system.

i hope it's helpful, please let me know, indeed my current efforts is maximizing the range of the public that will be able to understand the concepts (therefore obv the current terminology is tentative)

[kjn311]

Tau needs a use case and just market that. Ethereum use case was smart contracts. To me, Tau "main" use case is Artificial Intelligence. Market AI when talking about Tau. Maybe even change the name to something cool and robotic like "Skynet".  

[ohad]

Tau needs a use case and just market that. Ethereum use case was smart contracts. To me, Tau "main" use case is Artificial Intelligence. Market AI when talking about Tau. Maybe even change the name to something cool and robotic like "Skynet".  

indeed an important motivation of tau, is to bring the power of AI to everyone altogether (and by everyone altogether), rather to be held by centralized entities

[kjn311]

Tau needs a use case and just market that. Ethereum use case was smart contracts. To me, Tau "main" use case is Artificial Intelligence. Market AI when talking about Tau. Maybe even change the name to something cool and robotic like "Skynet".  

indeed an important motivation of tau, is to bring the power of AI to everyone altogether (and by everyone altogether), rather to be held by centralized entities

In my humble opinion, it should be majority focused on AI and ideas like the Internet of Things. Right now I think the concept is so abstract that people don't really grasp what this is. Yea it can be alot of things but I want to hear about cool decentralized terminator robots.

Just tell me you are building Skynet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet_(Terminator)

Thanks for all your hard work.

[ohad]

Just tell me you are building Skynet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet_(Terminator)

Skynet is a fictional neural net-based conscious group mind and artificial general intelligence (see also superintelligence) system

tau is not neural net. we'll reach skynet once we implement a neural net over tau (easy) and train it (hard).
the direct training of tau is not by machine learning methods but more like "rule based AI" methods