Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[elrapido80]

I've got mine on pre-order still too, I'm pretty confident things will be ok. My reasons:

• The biggest bulk of orders will be behind them soon, so they'll fly through the backlog in no time.
• Their organisation will improve both in size and efficiency
• Even after most bitcoins have been mined, there are still many people who have no idea what a bitcoin is, so value will still increase

Having said that, I'm bloody impatient and would happily pay to move forward in the queue. But sadly that's not an option 

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[greenbtc]

It's called "fire your customer", there's lots of articles books on it.  Read up.  Customers who post lies and misinformation for no particular reason other than to troll or prevent others from purchasing (thereby believing they are enhancing their purchase value) are not the kind of customers we want.

Serious question... are you being serious?    

EDIT: I am aware of the 'fire your customer' theory, but you seem to be going about it the wrong way...

It's a brilliant technique, pioneered by such business marvels as pirateat40.  He fired all his customers, to great success.

Yeah, like I said. It's a house of cards waiting to fall.

[darioc]

everyone should claim the payment made bfl WILL NOT BE LIABLE

[Trillium]

Apparently for you (Josh) there is no grey area between "the customer is always right" and "fire your customer"...

... How about: Don't be a rude to your existing customers - or potential customers (newbies sub-forum after all!) - and especially don't get into arguments with them on a public forum.

The best thing you could do right now is ignore this thread from now on. You are just going further down the rabbit hole by responding. You come off as rude and arrogant and this doesn't reflect well on the company. I don't know how you came to be a part of BFL nor how you are positioned within BFL at the moment, but I am amazed they still let you work there given your interactions with some of the people here.

EDIT: Oh right you are a COO?

Yeah, like I said. It's a house of cards waiting to fall.

[tinus42]

It's called "fire your customer", there's lots of articles books on it.  Read up.  Customers who post lies and misinformation for no particular reason other than to troll or prevent others from purchasing (thereby believing they are enhancing their purchase value) are not the kind of customers we want.

Serious question... are you being serious?    

EDIT: I am aware of the 'fire your customer' theory, but you seem to be going about it the wrong way...

Their theory is "open fire on your customer".

[becoin]

Their theory is "open fire on your customer".

Well they have more basic theory:

You, again, have no way of knowing...

But we know! They are scam and it is more than obvious now that from the very beginning BFL was projected to be a scam!

[SgtSpike]

I received my 30 GH/s miner 2 weeks ago, and it has been mining perfectly fine since. Sure, I had to wait for over a year and it was not fun seeing the difficulty go exponential in 2013, but at least it is here now. I guess I got lucky since I will likely be able to make most (but not all) of the bitcoins I invested back.

But let's face it, most users in the BFL queue at the moment will never make a profit by the time they receive their unit. And that is likely the reason that all sales are final. So while BFL is not a scam, most customers are screwed anyway. Bitcoin mining is a race against time and most people bet on the wrong horse.

It depends on how you define profit.  A profit in BTC?  Probably not if they ordered when BTC was worth less than $50.  A profit in USD?  Quite certainly, yes.

[BBazaar]

I believe you when you say my logic escapes you.  You are apparently unable to understand simple concepts, even though I've tried to use simple methods to explain them.  Something as advanced as logic would be difficult for someone to follow if they can't grasp the language they are trying to use. 

Here, let me try to be even more direct with you, try to follow along:

This is false, also known as a lie, since you a) have no way of knowing if we can or can not fulfill preorders.  Also a lie since you are unaware of the actual laws surrounding the FTC.  However, I will grant you a pass on the "lie" portion of the FTC regulation.  Lots of people think they are lawyers on the internet, but have absolutely no idea what they are talking about when it comes to legal matters.  This is you.

Another false statement, also known as a lie.  You, again, have no way of knowing whether or not we are barely fulfilling preorders.  You know exactly zero information about our orderbook. 

For all intents and purposes, this is a restatement of your first point.  So again, it's either a lie or you are yet another clueless internet lawyer.  You may THINK you know what the laws are, but you obviously don't. 

Lets go over this, shall we?  Why do you think the customer is always first?  Let me guess, you've heard the tired old saw 'the customer is always right!' correct?  Guess what?  Not true!  It's a false business methodology that has been proven to be detrimental to business.  It's a hold over from the 70's and 80's that has wrecked many a-business. 

Here, let me help you out:

It's called "fire your customer", there's lots of articles books on it.  Read up.  Customers who post lies and misinformation for no particular reason other than to troll or prevent others from purchasing (thereby believing they are enhancing their purchase value) are not the kind of customers we want.

Again, grow up and accept responsibility for your actions instead of throwing a tantrum on an internet forum and blaming others for your mistakes.
 

Josh, why don't you reread exactly what you said.  I took out my quotes and left you with just your own words.  How does that read to you? I'm pretty sure that is the least concerted effort I have ever seen to communicate with a customer in a professional manner!  You couldn't have used much more inflammatory language there.

If you can fire me, why won't can't I fire you?  By the way, the customer is in fact always first.  I didn't say the customer was always right, but you would probably attribute that to my reading comprehension skills.  You're in business to serve the customer bud.  I really was trying to help you out there with the Small Business Article.  You could really benefit from some positive customer service skills.

My favorite quote though is this one.  "Again, grow up and accept responsibility for your actions instead of throwing a tantrum on an internet forum and blaming others for your mistakes." 

[Xian01]

You could really benefit from some positive customer service skills.

 They evidently don't care - seemingly live in their own arrogant reality distortion bubble where they can do no wrong, we should not complain about their "mistakes", and their customers are yapping animals who have the honor and privilege of being allowed to purchase their fine, American-made Bitcoin products.

 If they fire and refund you, whereby breaching your contract with them to receive product you have paid for, they will threaten to countersue you for slander and defamation should you start legal proceedings. Even if you have a defensible case and can rebut your "slander and defamation" systematically with facts and evidence to support your statements.

 In my opinion, such enterprises should not be rewarded with customer patronage on basic principle. Life is just too short.

 Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and it would appear we are watching such a scenario play out with America's favorite Bitcoin company on both these forums and their own, with certain personalities running amok and unchecked.

[SgtSpike]

You could really benefit from some positive customer service skills.

 They evidently don't care - seemingly live in their own arrogant reality distortion bubble where they can do no wrong, we should not complain about their "mistakes", and their customers are yapping animals who have the honor and privilege of being allowed to purchase their fine, American-made Bitcoin products.

 If they fire and refund you, whereby breaching your contract with them to receive product you have paid for, they will threaten to countersue you for slander and defamation should you start legal proceedings. Even if you have a defensible case and can rebut your "slander and defamation" systematically with facts and evidence to support your statements.

 In my opinion, such enterprises should not be rewarded with customer patronage on basic principle. Life is just too short.

 Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and it would appear we are watching such a scenario play out with America's favorite Bitcoin company on both these forums and their own, with certain personalities running amok and unchecked.

Please show the laws or case studies that indicate it is a breach of contract for a company to cancel your order and refund your money.

[Xian01]

Please show the laws or case studies that indicate it is a breach of contract for a company to cancel your order and refund your money.

 IANAL. Can't answer that question for you. However, I have to trust that my extremely knowledgeable (and justifiably expensive) council knows what they are talking about and how they are advising me.

 

[jeremysmith]

If you had a February order for a Single with BFL and didn't have to pay for your electricity, would you keep your order?  Or do everything possible to get a refund?

Will these guys ever end up shipping 2013 orders? 

[SgtSpike]

Please show the laws or case studies that indicate it is a breach of contract for a company to cancel your order and refund your money.

 IANAL. Can't answer that question for you. However, I have to trust that my extremely knowledgeable (and justifiably expensive) council knows what they are talking about and how they are advising me.

IANAL either.  Interesting.  I would love to see the precedent they are relying on, because I can't seem to find any (with my limited research tools).

If you had a February order for a Single with BFL and didn't have to pay for your electricity, would you keep your order?  Or do everything possible to get a refund?

Will these guys ever end up shipping 2013 orders? 

I would keep it, definitely.  The BTC you eventually mine will be worth more than the USD you will get from a refund.  I bet the people who canceled their 6/23 orders for singles in April, May, or June are banging their heads on a wall right now.  The only reason I would want to cancel is if the BTC price dropped significantly (down to single digits).

[becoin]

Will these guys ever end up shipping 2013 orders? 

No. They will never end up shipping even their 2012 orders.

[jhansen858]

To illustrate my point since people don't seem to get it.  

Even the most broke ass college student will eventually earn $400,000 over a 40 year career.  Thats just $10,000 / year for 40 years, an unrealistically low number.  That amounts to 0.005% of your lifetime earning potential even if your a homeless person working for quarters on street corners.  So while $2,000 might seem like its worth it to stress this hard over, I can assure you in the long run, it only makes you look like a huge tool.  I have lost well over 5k multiple times in life just loaning money to friends that never paid me back or a bad business idea that never went anywhere.  I have also come up on unexpected money that was in my favor.  $2k is a piss in the ocean in the "Grand Scale" of things.   You made a pre-order, knowing that its a risky bet (what about bitcoin isn't?), didn't get your expectations properly set, and are now acting like a raging faggot.  I'm just trying to point out the fact that all the faggotry may not actually be worth it, adds additional stress to your own life, and accomplishes nothing other then making you look like a 15 year old tool.  You got into this business full well knowing it is risky as hell.  Now that we are at the finish line, and your stuff is about to be shipped, why persist in the immature behavior?  Just chill the fuck out for a minute.  

Yep, suck my dick too.

My witty retort to the other guy got deleted so I'll just quote my self "accomplishes nothing other than making you look like a 15 year old tool."

[Chuck Finley]

IANAL either.  Interesting.  I would love to see the precedent they are relying on, because I can't seem to find any (with my limited research tools).

I would imagine there aren't a lot of precedents for that since I believe it is basic contract law.

Once you make a deal with someone you can't just turn around at some future point and say "ahhh I changed my mind, here's your money back so I no longer owe you any obligations" (unless that option was specifically part of the deal).

There are also things you can't contract out of either, which is why the whole "well we said it was final sale only" bit is a hilarious joke if there is legislation that says something to the effect of "if someone pre-orders a product and you don't deliver within x days, you are obligated to provide them with a refund if so requested".

[darkmule]

Please show the laws or case studies that indicate it is a breach of contract for a company to cancel your order and refund your money.

Seriously?  Any first year contracts textbook, or any copy of the UCC.  

Contract requires offer and acceptance.  The offer is when the customer proffers payment (not as some think when the seller advertises).  By accepting payment in return for shipment, then keeping the money (and sending a receipt saying what the seller has sold), the seller accepts that offer.  That is a contract.  All a contract is at its core is an agreement to do one thing in return for another.  The difficulty is not establishing breach of contract, but actual damages.  Just a broken contract by itself doesn't entitle you to damages.  You would have to show you are somehow in a worse position than you would be in had the contract been carried out, i.e., you would have otherwise had an Avalon by now and have made whatever amount of money, and this is somehow BFL's fault.

BFL did not just make the initial contract either.  They continued to make false assurances as to delivery time and even made people agree to further conditions (in return for nothing) just to stay in the queue.  Even if they hadn't originally established a binding contract, and could have probably backed out early on with little to no consequences, just sitting on people's money for in many cases over a year while jerking them around is just not legal.

Even if, somehow, taking money in return for an agreement to deliver a product didn't establish a contract (and if you think that what planet are you on exactly?), consumer fraud and mail order laws have a lot more stringent rules than plain old contract or UCC.  Things like triple damages provisions in some states, like New Jersey.

I can see why people wouldn't want to pursue these avenues, because they just aren't going to be profitable, and if you've been waiting around for over a year for your product and actually still want it, why would you drive the company out of business just when it's actually starting to deliver?  But it's not legal, it's not kosher, and it's a major league dick move in every sense of the word.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Josh, your logic makes no sense to me. You literally quote facts that disprove your own argument and call it misinformation and lies?  Everything I said was accurate, the day you were called out on selling preorders it changed to "order now" on your website.  Your company IS NOT shipping units fast enough to catch up on backlogs, which also means you do not have the manpower or production to meet the sales that you have taken from customers.  Further, you cannot withold funds from a sale if there is no product to back it up.  "All sales are final" does not apply when you do not have the product being prepped for shipping. Guess what, ordering parts doesn't make the product built, packed, or ready to be shipped either.  You just can't withhold those funds, end of story.

I believe you when you say my logic escapes you.  You are apparently unable to understand simple concepts, even though I've tried to use simple methods to explain them.  Something as advanced as logic would be difficult for someone to follow if they can't grasp the language they are trying to use. 

Here, let me try to be even more direct with you, try to follow along:

Butterfly continued to accept preorders when they could not fulfill them or have a reasonable basis for delivery (this violates all FTC regulations)

This is false, also known as a lie, since you a) have no way of knowing if we can or can not fulfill preorders.  Also a lie since you are unaware of the actual laws surrounding the FTC.  However, I will grant you a pass on the "lie" portion of the FTC regulation.  Lots of people think they are lawyers on the internet, but have absolutely no idea what they are talking about when it comes to legal matters.  This is you.

Butterfly is continuing to ship units at whatever rate they can.  Realistically, they are barely fulfilling preorders that are up to a year or older

Another false statement, also known as a lie.  You, again, have no way of knowing whether or not we are barely fulfilling preorders.  You know exactly zero information about our orderbook. 

Butterfly is now refusing refunds.  That's right, if you placed an order you cannot get a refund.  The reasoning that Butterfly uses is that "all sales are final" and "orders are shipping". Let's get something straight.  If an order isn't in your hands or actually in the process of assembly and shipping, the sale is no where near "final" and every customer is entitled to a refund.  If you ordered in May, you will not receive your unit until sometime near December.  There is no excuse as to why that order can't be refunded, end of story.

For all intents and purposes, this is a restatement of your first point.  So again, it's either a lie or you are yet another clueless internet lawyer.  You may THINK you know what the laws are, but you obviously don't. 

Go back to my quote, the customer is always first.  I am in fact a customer.  Why don't you move to the back of the line and find some way to make it right for the rest of us?  That's your job.

Lets go over this, shall we?  Why do you think the customer is always first?  Let me guess, you've heard the tired old saw 'the customer is always right!' correct?  Guess what?  Not true!  It's a false business methodology that has been proven to be detrimental to business.  It's a hold over from the 70's and 80's that has wrecked many a-business. 

Here, let me help you out:

It's called "fire your customer", there's lots of articles books on it.  Read up.  Customers who post lies and misinformation for no particular reason other than to troll or prevent others from purchasing (thereby believing they are enhancing their purchase value) are not the kind of customers we want.

Again, grow up and accept responsibility for your actions instead of throwing a tantrum on an internet forum and blaming others for your mistakes.
 

For those who've been refused a refund by BFL, there's your out: BFL WILL fire you a customer. If they do not fire you as a customer, then they have lied. If they lie about this, what else are they lying about?

Simply put, now request BFL to fire your ass, whereupon your refund will be processed immediately.

[Cryptobits]

Will be interesting if someone beats them to the punch. It will happen.

[becoin]

I would keep it, definitely.  The BTC you eventually mine will be worth more than the USD you will get from a refund.  I bet the people who canceled their 6/23 orders for singles in April, May, or June are banging their heads on a wall right now.  The only reason I would want to cancel is if the BTC price dropped significantly (down to single digits).

Even BFL sock puppets are starting to put it rather bluntly. Nice to read it. In a ward, never purchase a product from BFL. If you want to make a BTC investment just buy BTC with your USD and hold them.