Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[BTCvFiat]

Guys just let this one go. BFL will be burned to the ground at a later date. Trust me.

That's the hard part about this.  You make an investment with a company on good faith that they will deliver a product, and sure enough they fail. Butterfly doesn't even do it gracefully, you come asking questions and they tell you that "you don't understand english" and "go whine somewhere else".  Meanwhile, they've taken your money and are now refusing to give it back even when they have no reasonable expectation to ship something to you!

Fast forward 6 months and you still haven't received that single you ordered... and Butterfly took your money and refused to refund it... Hard to let it go...

What if I told you that the 2k that you spent really isn't that much money in the grand scale of things and that adding this much stress and worry to your life might actually be counter productive?

If 2K isn't really that much money to you than I am more than happy to take the equivalent amount in BTC (at todays exchange rates) off your hands. 

[jhansen858]

To illustrate my point since people don't seem to get it. 

Even the most broke ass college student will eventually earn $400,000 over a 40 year career.  Thats just $10,000 / year for 40 years, an unrealistically low number.  That amounts to 0.005% of your lifetime earning potential even if your a homeless person working for quarters on street corners.  So while $2,000 might seem like its worth it to stress this hard over, I can assure you in the long run, it only makes you look like a huge tool.  I have lost well over 5k multiple times in life just loaning money to friends that never paid me back or a bad business idea that never went anywhere.  I have also come up on unexpected money that was in my favor.  $2k is a piss in the ocean in the "Grand Scale" of things.   You made a pre-order, knowing that its a risky bet (what about bitcoin isn't?), didn't get your expectations properly set, and are now acting like a raging faggot.  I'm just trying to point out the fact that all the faggotry may not actually be worth it, adds additional stress to your own life, and accomplishes nothing other then making you look like a 15 year old tool.  You got into this business full well knowing it is risky as hell.  Now that we are at the finish line, and your stuff is about to be shipped, why persist in the immature behavior?  Just chill the fuck out for a minute. 

[EBM]

Okay folks, you might not like this but...

I no longer think they're scammers. Hear me out, if you will - and please check my other posts too. I thought the absolute worst and said so, loudly. No sock puppet here.

So what happened to change my mind? The BC London conference.

Chatted with lots of big-time BTC people, as you'd expect. BFL was mentioned quite a bit, but in more sympathetic tones than angry - which amazed me. Did these people not know what BFL had been doing?

Then I realised Josh was actually there - which amazed me too. So I went over to collar him, for what I presumed would be a righteous bollocking, and ended up speaking with him for a long time.

Told him we were a pissed-off-no-longer-in-the-queue ex-customer, etc. Heard what he had to say, watched how he said it too. FWIW, my conclusion is that he - and they -  are legit and they will deliver, even though it's crazy late and below original specs.

Cock-up, not conspiracy - but not helped by an unpro attitude to customer service with these ongoing slanging matches. Even a young company should always rise above conflict and remain polite, no matter what. (Military mindset, I believe.)

Remember how Yifu Guo spoke about how it doesn't matter how much money you have; to get chips done in China, it's who you know? BFL found that out the hard way - and so did its customers.

BTC, ASICs, all of this is new territory. Look at Gox's teething problems (and I'm NOT defending them, just pointing out that BFL is not alone in making mistakes in this space).

I'll leave you with a thought; my first 'PC' was a Sinclair ZX81. They were pre-sold via adverts, and only then were they actually made and shipped. The delays were incredible and the failure rate ridiculous. But it was the world's first <£100 computer, a totally new concept, so people cut Sinclair a lot of slack.

You don't have to do the same for BFL. You can be pissed off with good reason. But I've seen the whites of his eyes, and I believe Josh is not a scammer. He's just over-promised and over-reached - which would not be the first time in the world of tech startups. Hell, I did it myself with mine.

And as I'm kinda vouching for him here, I won't hide behind anonymity - although I'd like to keep private. Anyone wants to know who I am, just DM me.

[ninjarobot]

I received my 30 GH/s miner 2 weeks ago, and it has been mining perfectly fine since. Sure, I had to wait for over a year and it was not fun seeing the difficulty go exponential in 2013, but at least it is here now. I guess I got lucky since I will likely be able to make most (but not all) of the bitcoins I invested back.

But let's face it, most users in the BFL queue at the moment will never make a profit by the time they receive their unit. And that is likely the reason that all sales are final. So while BFL is not a scam, most customers are screwed anyway. Bitcoin mining is a race against time and most people bet on the wrong horse.

[MooC Tals]

That's the hard part about this.  You make an investment with a company on good faith that they will deliver a product, and sure enough they fail. Butterfly doesn't even do it gracefully, you come asking questions and they tell you that "you don't understand english" and "go whine somewhere else".  Meanwhile, they've taken your money and are now refusing to give it back even when they have no reasonable expectation to ship something to you!

What if?  As that's never happened, it's are you trying to imply that it is?

You didn't "come asking questions" as innocently as you are trying to make it out to be.  Here, let me quote you:

Look, Butterfly Labs is a scam.  There is no other way to put it, unless you were one of the first few who received their orders.  Let's be clear on a few points.

- Butterfly continued to accept preorders when they could not fulfill them or have a reasonable basis for delivery (this violates all FTC regulations)
- Butterfly is continuing to ship units at whatever rate they can.  Realistically, they are barely fulfilling preorders that are up to a year or older
- Butterfly is now refusing refunds.  That's right, if you placed an order you cannot get a refund.  The reasoning that Butterfly uses is that "all sales are final" and "orders are shipping". Let's get something straight.  If an order isn't in your hands or actually in the process of assembly and shipping, the sale is no where near "final" and every customer is entitled to a refund.  If you ordered in May, you will not receive your unit until sometime near December.  There is no excuse as to why that order can't be refunded, end of story.

Last but not least, no respectable company, especially one looking to make a name for themselves in a virgin industry, would conduct business like Butterfly.  Being represented by folks like Josh is disgraceful, if one of my employees acted in that capacity he would be fired on the spot.  The customer is always first.

Not a question mark to be had.  Just a bunch of misinformation and outright lies.  Gosh, I wonder why you got the response you did? Especially after I pointed out your whacky, unrealistic "hindsight investment strategy" you seem so proud of, then where you then proceeded to throw a tantrum because you were unable to understand "all sales are final" which is plastered on nearly every page of your order process.

Josh go suck sum cock!

[becoin]

To illustrate my point since people don't seem to get it. 

Even the most broke ass college student will eventually earn $400,000 over a 40 year career.  Thats just $10,000 / year for 40 years, an unrealistically low number.  That amounts to 0.005% of your lifetime earning potential even if your a homeless person working for quarters on street corners.  So while $2,000 might seem like its worth it to stress this hard over, I can assure you in the long run, it only makes you look like a huge tool.  I have lost well over 5k multiple times in life just loaning money to friends that never paid me back or a bad business idea that never went anywhere.  I have also come up on unexpected money that was in my favor.  $2k is a piss in the ocean in the "Grand Scale" of things.   You made a pre-order, knowing that its a risky bet (what about bitcoin isn't?), didn't get your expectations properly set, and are now acting like a raging faggot.  I'm just trying to point out the fact that all the faggotry may not actually be worth it, adds additional stress to your own life, and accomplishes nothing other then making you look like a 15 year old tool.  You got into this business full well knowing it is risky as hell.  Now that we are at the finish line, and your stuff is about to be shipped, why persist in the immature behavior?  Just chill the fuck out for a minute. 

Yep, suck my dick too.

[becoin]

just pointing out that BFL is not alone in making mistakes in this space

If someone makes a mistake they pay out from their own pocket. If you steal other people's money to pay for your mistake it's not a mistake. It is a scam!

[molecular]

I received my 30 GH/s miner 2 weeks ago, and it has been mining perfectly fine since.

Hm? You received a little single? I was of the impression they hadn't built/sent out any. When did you order?

[R.Majerski]

I ordered a ASIC rig from BLF about 6 months back and my order is still pending. Can anyone point me to news/info of where they are in relation to clearing the backlog of orders as I want to know when I am likely to get my rig. I'm also wondering if it's worth requesting a refund and buying some graphics cards instead.

[molecular]

I ordered a ASIC rig from BLF about 6 months back and my order is still pending. Can anyone point me to news/info of where they are in relation to clearing the backlog of orders as I want to know when I am likely to get my rig. I'm also wondering if it's worth requesting a refund and buying some graphics cards instead.

a graphics card??? Unless you want to mine some altcoin this doesn't make sense at all.

[BBazaar]

That's the hard part about this.  You make an investment with a company on good faith that they will deliver a product, and sure enough they fail. Butterfly doesn't even do it gracefully, you come asking questions and they tell you that "you don't understand english" and "go whine somewhere else".  Meanwhile, they've taken your money and are now refusing to give it back even when they have no reasonable expectation to ship something to you!

What if?  As that's never happened, it's are you trying to imply that it is?

You didn't "come asking questions" as innocently as you are trying to make it out to be.  Here, let me quote you:

Look, Butterfly Labs is a scam.  There is no other way to put it, unless you were one of the first few who received their orders.  Let's be clear on a few points.

- Butterfly continued to accept preorders when they could not fulfill them or have a reasonable basis for delivery (this violates all FTC regulations)
- Butterfly is continuing to ship units at whatever rate they can.  Realistically, they are barely fulfilling preorders that are up to a year or older
- Butterfly is now refusing refunds.  That's right, if you placed an order you cannot get a refund.  The reasoning that Butterfly uses is that "all sales are final" and "orders are shipping". Let's get something straight.  If an order isn't in your hands or actually in the process of assembly and shipping, the sale is no where near "final" and every customer is entitled to a refund.  If you ordered in May, you will not receive your unit until sometime near December.  There is no excuse as to why that order can't be refunded, end of story.

Last but not least, no respectable company, especially one looking to make a name for themselves in a virgin industry, would conduct business like Butterfly.  Being represented by folks like Josh is disgraceful, if one of my employees acted in that capacity he would be fired on the spot.  The customer is always first.

Not a question mark to be had.  Just a bunch of misinformation and outright lies.  Gosh, I wonder why you got the response you did? Especially after I pointed out your whacky, unrealistic "hindsight investment strategy" you seem so proud of, then where you then proceeded to throw a tantrum because you were unable to understand "all sales are final" which is plastered on nearly every page of your order process.

Josh, your logic makes no sense to me. You literally quote facts that disprove your own argument and call it misinformation and lies?  Everything I said was accurate, the day you were called out on selling preorders it changed to "order now" on your website.  Your company IS NOT shipping units fast enough to catch up on backlogs, which also means you do not have the manpower or production to meet the sales that you have taken from customers.  Further, you cannot withold funds from a sale if there is no product to back it up.  "All sales are final" does not apply when you do not have the product being prepped for shipping. Guess what, ordering parts doesn't make the product built, packed, or ready to be shipped either.  You just can't withhold those funds, end of story.

Go back to my quote, the customer is always first.  I am in fact a customer.  Why don't you move to the back of the line and find some way to make it right for the rest of us?  That's your job.

[BBazaar]

Not a question mark to be had.  Just a bunch of misinformation and outright lies.  Gosh, I wonder why you got the response you did? Especially after I pointed out your whacky, unrealistic "hindsight investment strategy" you seem so proud of, then where you then proceeded to throw a tantrum because you were unable to understand "all sales are final" which is plastered on nearly every page of your order process.

Josh, let me help you out a bit.  "How to Handle Online Reputation" for Small Business.  This is a good start.

Tip for July 19, 2013
Overcome Negative Publicity
Combat negative publicity with an honest and professional response. If due to a mistake or error, acknowledge it and offer to make amends. Engaging dissatisfied customers can demonstrate your commitment to delivering good service. Go a step further by using the experience to teach others how to avoid their own mistakes.

http://www.manta.com/small-business/handle-online-reputation?referid=16216

[polrpaul]

wow this thread has gotten large and out of control. 

[wtfvanity]

Not a question mark to be had.  Just a bunch of misinformation and outright lies.  Gosh, I wonder why you got the response you did? Especially after I pointed out your whacky, unrealistic "hindsight investment strategy" you seem so proud of, then where you then proceeded to throw a tantrum because you were unable to understand "all sales are final" which is plastered on nearly every page of your order process.

Josh, let me help you out a bit.  "How to Handle Online Reputation" for Small Business.  This is a good start.

Tip for July 19, 2013
Overcome Negative Publicity
Combat negative publicity with an honest and professional response. If due to a mistake or error, acknowledge it and offer to make amends. Engaging dissatisfied customers can demonstrate your commitment to delivering good service. Go a step further by using the experience to teach others how to avoid their own mistakes.

http://www.manta.com/small-business/handle-online-reputation?referid=16216

That is for real companies who have products to deliver and honest business people running the show. Not going to happen with Josh and Co.

[Inaba]

Josh, your logic makes no sense to me. You literally quote facts that disprove your own argument and call it misinformation and lies?  Everything I said was accurate, the day you were called out on selling preorders it changed to "order now" on your website.  Your company IS NOT shipping units fast enough to catch up on backlogs, which also means you do not have the manpower or production to meet the sales that you have taken from customers.  Further, you cannot withold funds from a sale if there is no product to back it up.  "All sales are final" does not apply when you do not have the product being prepped for shipping. Guess what, ordering parts doesn't make the product built, packed, or ready to be shipped either.  You just can't withhold those funds, end of story.

I believe you when you say my logic escapes you.  You are apparently unable to understand simple concepts, even though I've tried to use simple methods to explain them.  Something as advanced as logic would be difficult for someone to follow if they can't grasp the language they are trying to use. 

Here, let me try to be even more direct with you, try to follow along:

Butterfly continued to accept preorders when they could not fulfill them or have a reasonable basis for delivery (this violates all FTC regulations)

This is false, also known as a lie, since you a) have no way of knowing if we can or can not fulfill preorders.  Also a lie since you are unaware of the actual laws surrounding the FTC.  However, I will grant you a pass on the "lie" portion of the FTC regulation.  Lots of people think they are lawyers on the internet, but have absolutely no idea what they are talking about when it comes to legal matters.  This is you.

Butterfly is continuing to ship units at whatever rate they can.  Realistically, they are barely fulfilling preorders that are up to a year or older

Another false statement, also known as a lie.  You, again, have no way of knowing whether or not we are barely fulfilling preorders.  You know exactly zero information about our orderbook. 

Butterfly is now refusing refunds.  That's right, if you placed an order you cannot get a refund.  The reasoning that Butterfly uses is that "all sales are final" and "orders are shipping". Let's get something straight.  If an order isn't in your hands or actually in the process of assembly and shipping, the sale is no where near "final" and every customer is entitled to a refund.  If you ordered in May, you will not receive your unit until sometime near December.  There is no excuse as to why that order can't be refunded, end of story.

For all intents and purposes, this is a restatement of your first point.  So again, it's either a lie or you are yet another clueless internet lawyer.  You may THINK you know what the laws are, but you obviously don't. 

Go back to my quote, the customer is always first.  I am in fact a customer.  Why don't you move to the back of the line and find some way to make it right for the rest of us?  That's your job.

Lets go over this, shall we?  Why do you think the customer is always first?  Let me guess, you've heard the tired old saw 'the customer is always right!' correct?  Guess what?  Not true!  It's a false business methodology that has been proven to be detrimental to business.  It's a hold over from the 70's and 80's that has wrecked many a-business. 

Here, let me help you out:

It's called "fire your customer", there's lots of articles books on it.  Read up.  Customers who post lies and misinformation for no particular reason other than to troll or prevent others from purchasing (thereby believing they are enhancing their purchase value) are not the kind of customers we want.

Again, grow up and accept responsibility for your actions instead of throwing a tantrum on an internet forum and blaming others for your mistakes.
 

[darkmule]

Josh, let me help you out a bit.  "How to Handle Online Reputation" for Small Business.  This is a good start.

Tip for July 19, 2013
Overcome Negative Publicity
Combat negative publicity with an honest and professional response. If due to a mistake or error, acknowledge it and offer to make amends. Engaging dissatisfied customers can demonstrate your commitment to delivering good service. Go a step further by using the experience to teach others how to avoid their own mistakes.

http://www.manta.com/small-business/handle-online-reputation?referid=16216

BFL knows better.

From the BFL Guide to Handle Online Reputation
Tip for July 19, 2013
Troll up a Storm

Find the biggest douchebag you can, preferably sleeping off a bender on Skid Row.  Hire him and put him behind a keyboard as your main PR guy.  

[QuestionAuthority]

Josh, let me help you out a bit.  "How to Handle Online Reputation" for Small Business.  This is a good start.

Tip for July 19, 2013
Overcome Negative Publicity
Combat negative publicity with an honest and professional response. If due to a mistake or error, acknowledge it and offer to make amends. Engaging dissatisfied customers can demonstrate your commitment to delivering good service. Go a step further by using the experience to teach others how to avoid their own mistakes.

http://www.manta.com/small-business/handle-online-reputation?referid=16216

BFL knows better.

From the BFL Guide to Handle Online Reputation
Tip for July 19, 2013
Troll up a Storm

Find the biggest douchebag you can, preferably sleeping off a bender on Skid Row.  Hire him and put him behind a keyboard as your main PR guy.  

ROTFL

[numismatist]

That is for real companies who have products to deliver and honest business people running the show. Not going to happen with Josh and Co.

I tend to belive their Products technically could exist, and even some peer members got prototypes delivered. It's just not doable on a grand scale

[ibminer]

It's called "fire your customer", there's lots of articles books on it.  Read up.  Customers who post lies and misinformation for no particular reason other than to troll or prevent others from purchasing (thereby believing they are enhancing their purchase value) are not the kind of customers we want.

Serious question... are you being serious?    

EDIT: I am aware of the 'fire your customer' theory, but you seem to be going about it the wrong way...

[darkmule]

It's called "fire your customer", there's lots of articles books on it.  Read up.  Customers who post lies and misinformation for no particular reason other than to troll or prevent others from purchasing (thereby believing they are enhancing their purchase value) are not the kind of customers we want.

Serious question... are you being serious?    

EDIT: I am aware of the 'fire your customer' theory, but you seem to be going about it the wrong way...

It's a brilliant technique, pioneered by such business marvels as pirateat40.  He fired all his customers, to great success.