Butterflylabs Huge SCAM

[jordaninthesky]

The name you wear is an anti-semitic joke.

How's that? Inaba is a Japanese name. Probably taken from some manga character.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inaba

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua

So everyone with a biblical name (David, Matthew, Luke, etc) is an anti-semite if they do wrong because it might reflect badly on the Chosen People?  Seems taking cultural sensitivity way to far to me. 

Josh, I derived from a hebrew word Joshua, is "'God' is salvation".  Josh, is a secondary transliteration, and has become akin to meaning "joke" in the English language.  I had read that Zerlan was Hebraic for "words from 'God'", but I cannot relocate the reference.  Anyway... the trend in the history of the name of Josh is implicit.  I know many of a Josh, and in America, Josh works.  So did Enron.

There is power in a name.  It shapes us.  As much as I would have liked to deny this, I cannot do so anymore.

The anti-Semitic thing was more of a pissy retort to the situation involving Zerlan and Micon and how Zerlan spread the press that Micon was an anti-Semite.

[1713508145]

1713508145

[1713508145]

1713508145

[1713508145]

1713508145

[1713508145]

1713508145

[gdpone]

I put in a paypal dispute because they're not shipping singles and I'm pissed

Of course they haven't replied to the dispute or refunded me yet and have a week to do so

I emailed BFL asking them if I cancelled the dispute would I be able to keep my position in queue

This was their response:

https://i.imgur.com/NoDo3gm.png


I was half expecting them to beg me to cancel the dispute and offer to bump me up in the queue or something, instead I get them stating that they "can not comment" on it.


I'm guessing if I cancel the dispute, I won't be seeing a refund and my order and position in queue will "accidentally" get lost


Anyone think i'll retain my position in queue if I cancel the dispute?

Interesting how the order page says refunded: 1 when I haven't gotten anything back in paypal yet:

https://i.imgur.com/Sp5g9dY.png

https://i.imgur.com/Zgd8v0j.png

I put in a paypal dispute because they're not shipping singles and I'm pissed

Of course they haven't replied to the dispute or refunded me yet and have a week to do so

I emailed BFL asking them if I cancelled the dispute would I be able to keep my position in queue

This was their response:

https://i.imgur.com/NoDo3gm.png


I was half expecting them to beg me to cancel the dispute and offer to bump me up in the queue or something, instead I get them stating that they "can not comment" on it.


I'm guessing if I cancel the dispute, I won't be seeing a refund and my order and position in queue will "accidentally" get lost


Anyone think i'll retain my position in queue if I cancel the dispute?

Interesting how the order page says refunded: 1 when I haven't gotten anything back in paypal yet:

https://i.imgur.com/Sp5g9dY.png

https://i.imgur.com/Zgd8v0j.png

So nobodies put in a paypal dispute and then decided to cancel it?  I'm wondering if I cancel the dispute will l still retain my position in queue?  BFL hasn't refunded me yet.

Dont fall for it, keep the dispute open.  They seem like exactly the type of company to be vengeful for excising your consumer rights.  They did the same things to me, list it as refunded but they never refunded it.  I had to have paypal go in and retrieve the funds through my dispute.  I even emailed them about the refund and they stated they are not doing ANY refunds due to pre-orders having started to be shipped.

I URGE everyone who has been wronged by their lack of customer service and lack of product delivery to file a compliant with the BBB.

[QuestionAuthority]

So does anyone think that maybe BFL isn't being quite honest?

[greenbtc]

So does anyone think that maybe BFL isn't being quite honest?

...lol...You think?

To be honest, I'm waiting for the class action to be brought against them. They would certainly lose and it would bring down their house of cards once and for all (lots of people I'm sure would be pissed, but just as many would be happy I'm sure--maybe more).

They have done irreparable damage to the community unfortunately.

[bitbryan]

ohhh my goonesss... bfl doesnt need your 1200$ ... just member that. turn on a mini rig and mine for 1 hour and they own your 1200!!!!

[lucasjkr]

So does anyone think that maybe BFL isn't being quite honest?

...lol...You think?

To be honest, I'm waiting for the class action to be brought against them. They would certainly lose and it would bring down their house of cards once and for all (lots of people I'm sure would be pissed, but just as many would be happy I'm sure--maybe more).

They have done irreparable damage to the community unfortunately.

Curious. What is the irreparable damage?

[Trillium]

ohhh my goonesss... bfl doesnt need your 1200$ ... just member that. turn on a mini rig and mine for 1 hour and they own your 1200!!!!

Exaggerating a bit, my calculations show that you'd earn ~$31 / hour which is about $736 per day.

[RangerTwentyTwo]

Not sure what or whom to believe at the minute but it isn't looking good for BFL that's for sure!

[jordaninthesky]

So does anyone think that maybe BFL isn't being quite honest?

...lol...You think?

To be honest, I'm waiting for the class action to be brought against them. They would certainly lose and it would bring down their house of cards once and for all (lots of people I'm sure would be pissed, but just as many would be happy I'm sure--maybe more).

They have done irreparable damage to the community unfortunately.

Curious. What is the irreparable damage?

A lot of people heard about BTC because of their claims, and then heard of their "failures".  All in all with BFL's known tactics, as well as its favorite customer base makes everyone involved look depraved.  What could have happened several months ago did not, and the great amount of disappointment reeks up the entire room.  What could have happened yesterday, would have led to a completely different today.  But tomorrow I will still remember yesterday, and what it could have been.

Oh yeah, you are luke-jr, right?  You settled for less than right, because you are still better off than others..  In that case, of course it's not pompous to question everyone else's lack of fulfillment. /sarcasm

[becoin]

So does anyone think that maybe BFL isn't being quite honest?

...lol...You think?

To be honest, I'm waiting for the class action to be brought against them. They would certainly lose and it would bring down their house of cards once and for all (lots of people I'm sure would be pissed, but just as many would be happy I'm sure--maybe more).

They have done irreparable damage to the community unfortunately.

Curious. What is the irreparable damage?

It is not a secret that Bitcoin is struggling to improve its image among ordinary people and community newcomers. Unfortunately, it is rapidly becoming a synonym for fraud. BFL is the brightest example so far that bitcoin is the currency of choice among fraudsters. Instead of being spent on bitcoin development and improvement of wallet usability, millions of bitcoins and dollars have gone into the pockets of BFL crooks. Market penetration of bitcoin is far behind the successful trajectory of a newly emerged service on the Web.

The damage however is not only on the PR front but technical as well. The voracious greed of those crooks, using their customers ASICs at max to mine for themselves, is increasing the network difficulty beyond the cost effective level for ordinary miners and they give up. This leads to accelerated centralization of bitcoin mining. Centralization of bitcoin mining = bitcoin death.

[fruitFly]

I don't know much about BFL but from the little I've heard they sound like total crooks.

My friend ordered a 30GH asic on March 3, 2013, order#: 100019059

When do you think it will arrive? Might it not even arrive at all? If it does arrive might it be a piece of sh!^ like I've seen in someones experience?

[darkmule]

I don't know much about BFL but from the little I've heard they sound like total crooks.

My friend ordered a 30GH asic on March 3, 2013, order#: 100019059

When do you think it will arrive? Might it not even arrive at all? If it does arrive might it be a piece of sh!^ like I've seen in someones experience?

I don't know, and I don't know.  It probably won't be a piece of shit in terms of actually immediately catching on fire or something, although it might be off spec somehow.  So far as I can tell, when they ship, they are not deliberately shipping bunk items. 

The problem with the "will they deliver" game is it's conceivable that if enough people panic and demand refunds, and the money isn't there, it could knock down the company.  Then the losers in the game will be those who didn't get a refund early.  If they eventually do get production up to capacity and ship regularly, the losers will be those who refunded.

That's assuming the shipments aren't SO late that the difficulty has increased to the point they will never turn a profit.  Currently, people getting their devices can probably expect some profit on them (at least if they didn't pay in BTC back before BTC went through the roof).

[SgtSpike]

Currently, people getting their devices can probably expect some profit on them (at least if they didn't pay in BTC back before BTC went through the roof).

No one paid "in BTC".  They paid in USD with BTC.  It is as useless to compare an investment in BTC with an investment in a mining machine as it is to compare an investment in gold mining equipment with an investment in gold itself.  Hindsight is 20/20, and no one knew that BTC would be worth as much as it is today when they ordered mining equipment with the price at $5.  They chose to invest in mining equipment instead of Bitcoin itself, while Bitcoin itself has shown itself to be the more profitable investment.  Both investments have proven to be profitable - just because the profit would have been higher in one investment does not mean the investment in the other is a loss.

[darkmule]

Currently, people getting their devices can probably expect some profit on them (at least if they didn't pay in BTC back before BTC went through the roof).

No one paid "in BTC".  They paid in USD with BTC.  It is as useless to compare an investment in BTC with an investment in a mining machine as it is to compare an investment in gold mining equipment with an investment in gold itself.  Hindsight is 20/20, and no one knew that BTC would be worth as much as it is today when they ordered mining equipment with the price at $5.  They chose to invest in mining equipment instead of Bitcoin itself, while Bitcoin itself has shown itself to be the more profitable investment.  Both investments have proven to be profitable - just because the profit would have been higher in one investment does not mean the investment in the other is a loss.

Just saying.  They'd have been in better shape just to sit on their BTC.

For that matter, they'd have been in better shape to use the same USD to buy BTC.

BFL is one of the kinds of things that happen in a "gold rush economy."  You know who made the most profit on the gold rush (other than the real monsters who moved in like Hearst)?  It wasn't the miners.  It was the people who sold them equipment. 

Funny how history repeats itself.

[becoin]

It is as useless to compare an investment in BTC with an investment in a mining machine as it is to compare an investment in gold mining equipment with an investment in gold itself.

LOL... How is it useless? Investors in gold are doing it all the time! You obliviously have little to no experience in gold investments.

Investment in gold = Investment in shares of gold mining companies = Investment in gold mining equipment. This relation is so obvious that it doesn't require any special arguments.

Investment in BTC is 100% equal to investment in bitcoin ASIC! Price elasticity between the two is zero! If bitcoin price drops to zero the price of your bitcoin ASIC will drop to zero as well becauser a bitcoin ASIC is useless for anything else but mining bitcoins. You'll even have to pay a fee to dump it in electronic garbage depo.

It doesn't really matter if they paid in BTC or in USD for their ASICs one year ago. They are losers both ways. If they purchased BTC with the USD they spent for "pre-orders" they'd be much more profitable than waiting for an ASIC for one year and trying to make a profit now. This difference in profitability is confiscated by BFL to the extend that BFL customers will never see positive bitcoin ROI. I'm envisioning the average BFL customer, of course. BFL crooks have bribed a large group of bitcoin activists including mods on this forum. This is the only reason they still don't have official scammer tag there!

[lucasjkr]

So does anyone think that maybe BFL isn't being quite honest?

...lol...You think?

To be honest, I'm waiting for the class action to be brought against them. They would certainly lose and it would bring down their house of cards once and for all (lots of people I'm sure would be pissed, but just as many would be happy I'm sure--maybe more).

They have done irreparable damage to the community unfortunately.

Curious. What is the irreparable damage?

A lot of people heard about BTC because of their claims, and then heard of their "failures".  All in all with BFL's known tactics, as well as its favorite customer base makes everyone involved look depraved.  What could have happened several months ago did not, and the great amount of disappointment reeks up the entire room.  What could have happened yesterday, would have led to a completely different today.  But tomorrow I will still remember yesterday, and what it could have been.

Oh yeah, you are luke-jr, right?  You settled for less than right, because you are still better off than others..  In that case, of course it's not pompous to question everyone else's lack of fulfillment. /sarcasm

Sorry, no I'm not luke-jr. I'm lucasjkr. Back in early 90's I could have my screen name on many sites just be "lucas". But lots of other Lucas' started using the internet. So then I had to be LucasK (but apparently there are other people named Lucas with that last initial as well) then LucasJK (but again, lots of people with those initials). But "LucasJKr is rare (if i try to sign up on a site and the user name is taken, it's usually because I already registered there before). So, no relation to luke-jr and I certainly didn't choose my screen name to cause confusion.

I still don't see any irreparable harm that they caused. Sure, they caused a sting and some disappointment, but such is life. The community itself seems to be operating just fine, Asic miner and Avalon are doing their things, and lots of rumors of future devices on the horizon (KNC Miner, for instance). Hardly irreparably harm.

I also don't get the constant complaint of the bitcoin denominated returns. People who paid in BTC rather than dollars in mid 2012 complaining that their 2013 investment won't return as many bitcoins. Nevermind that Bitcoin is worth 10x more today as it was then, and never mind that nobody but nobody knew what the future held.

Sure, bitcoin was at $6 in June and higher ever since. that was hardly pre-ordained - it could have just as easily did what it did from June 2011 to June 2012 (ie, lost another 80% of its value). And if anyone thinks they really did "know", why pay in BTC at all? Why not just have used dollars?

[SgtSpike]

Currently, people getting their devices can probably expect some profit on them (at least if they didn't pay in BTC back before BTC went through the roof).

No one paid "in BTC".  They paid in USD with BTC.  It is as useless to compare an investment in BTC with an investment in a mining machine as it is to compare an investment in gold mining equipment with an investment in gold itself.  Hindsight is 20/20, and no one knew that BTC would be worth as much as it is today when they ordered mining equipment with the price at $5.  They chose to invest in mining equipment instead of Bitcoin itself, while Bitcoin itself has shown itself to be the more profitable investment.  Both investments have proven to be profitable - just because the profit would have been higher in one investment does not mean the investment in the other is a loss.

Just saying.  They'd have been in better shape just to sit on their BTC.

For that matter, they'd have been in better shape to use the same USD to buy BTC.

BFL is one of the kinds of things that happen in a "gold rush economy."  You know who made the most profit on the gold rush (other than the real monsters who moved in like Hearst)?  It wasn't the miners.  It was the people who sold them equipment. 

Funny how history repeats itself.

Yes, I agree, they would have been better off to sit on their BTC.  They'd also have been in better shape to use that USD on some penny stock that went up 10,000%.  I mean, we could go on about what-if scenarios, but since no one knows the future, they're kind of pointless.

[Sinthe]

I came close to jumping in on a BLF rig.

[BBazaar]

So does anyone think that maybe BFL isn't being quite honest?

...lol...You think?

To be honest, I'm waiting for the class action to be brought against them. They would certainly lose and it would bring down their house of cards once and for all (lots of people I'm sure would be pissed, but just as many would be happy I'm sure--maybe more).

They have done irreparable damage to the community unfortunately.

Curious. What is the irreparable damage?

A lot of people heard about BTC because of their claims, and then heard of their "failures".  All in all with BFL's known tactics, as well as its favorite customer base makes everyone involved look depraved.  What could have happened several months ago did not, and the great amount of disappointment reeks up the entire room.  What could have happened yesterday, would have led to a completely different today.  But tomorrow I will still remember yesterday, and what it could have been.

Oh yeah, you are luke-jr, right?  You settled for less than right, because you are still better off than others..  In that case, of course it's not pompous to question everyone else's lack of fulfillment. /sarcasm

Sorry, no I'm not luke-jr. I'm lucasjkr. Back in early 90's I could have my screen name on many sites just be "lucas". But lots of other Lucas' started using the internet. So then I had to be LucasK (but apparently there are other people named Lucas with that last initial as well) then LucasJK (but again, lots of people with those initials). But "LucasJKr is rare (if i try to sign up on a site and the user name is taken, it's usually because I already registered there before). So, no relation to luke-jr and I certainly didn't choose my screen name to cause confusion.

I still don't see any irreparable harm that they caused. Sure, they caused a sting and some disappointment, but such is life. The community itself seems to be operating just fine, Asic miner and Avalon are doing their things, and lots of rumors of future devices on the horizon (KNC Miner, for instance). Hardly irreparably harm.

I also don't get the constant complaint of the bitcoin denominated returns. People who paid in BTC rather than dollars in mid 2012 complaining that their 2013 investment won't return as many bitcoins. Nevermind that Bitcoin is worth 10x more today as it was then, and never mind that nobody but nobody knew what the future held.

Sure, bitcoin was at $6 in June and higher ever since. that was hardly pre-ordained - it could have just as easily did what it did from June 2011 to June 2012 (ie, lost another 80% of its value). And if anyone thinks they really did "know", why pay in BTC at all? Why not just have used dollars?

BFL was a pioneer in the ASIC community for bitcoin miners. They absorbed a very large portion of the wealth among early adopters and the general bitcoin community. People who believe in bitcoins and invested in this company with the expectation that they would come good on their promises to deliver an Asic machine in Oct 2012.  After many many promises later, fast forward to Jul 2013 and still very few people have had that promise fulfilled and the backorder log is so substantial that at the current shipping rates the company has almost no hope of delivering goods to all customer hands.

This is irreparable damage.  It's called opportunity cost. You take funds from one bucket of people that could have continued to invest in other areas of the community.  Invested in a different manner they could have continued to further benefit the community and general bitcoin population instead of being tied up in a company that has provided almost ZERO real world value comparative to the money invested in them.  Drum up the PR nightmare for fraud and misrepresentation that Butterfly and guys like Josh have created and the pile grows.

There is the possibility it only continues to get worse as well.  We can assume the company delivers all units tomorrow from its backlog and the damage is constricted only to the opportunity cost.  If the alternative ensues, the company continues to fail to deliver and worse files for bankruptcy and ends up fighting litigation for failure to deliver products and refund customers then the stain on the community is egregious.

[jordaninthesky]

Currently, people getting their devices can probably expect some profit on them (at least if they didn't pay in BTC back before BTC went through the roof).

No one paid "in BTC".  They paid in USD with BTC.  It is as useless to compare an investment in BTC with an investment in a mining machine as it is to compare an investment in gold mining equipment with an investment in gold itself.  Hindsight is 20/20, and no one knew that BTC would be worth as much as it is today when they ordered mining equipment with the price at $5.  They chose to invest in mining equipment instead of Bitcoin itself, while Bitcoin itself has shown itself to be the more profitable investment.  Both investments have proven to be profitable - just because the profit would have been higher in one investment does not mean the investment in the other is a loss.

This is wrong.  Bitpay allows the merchant to chose the conversion after the fact ($ or BTC, or both).  If the BTC was converted entirely to $ then it was, in fact, by BFL's election; nobody else's.  (aka BFL is entirely liable for this decision)  I know that sounds like lawyer speak, whomever, but what it really means is simply, BFL chose to convert the BTC to $ and thus lose the value on their own.  Everyone who spent BTC for devices, paid BTC for devices.  There isn't any way around it after the fact.  None of your terms, as illegal that they might already be, touches this point.

Lukejrk - Sorry for the misidentification, but you are still an asshat to suggest that because enron existed, people get raped, etc, such is life.  Fix it or gtfo.