Health and Religion

[Astargath]

Are you saying god can't make perfect people? Then why call him a god?
God made perfect people... Adam and Eve.

''So, He has devised a plan whereby he will get perfect people that don't have a hint of evil in them. He will let all people live for a short while - maybe 100 years or less - in their evil''

Why would an omniscient god need to wait if he already knows who is going to be evil and who is not, can't you see the stupidity in your sentence?
Wait for what? Didn't you even read what I said? ALL people are evil, and God knows it. God is waiting for people to be born so He can make a Heaven-agreement with as many as are willing.

''During that time He will find those people who want to be made into good and perfect people''

An omniscient god doesn't need to find anything he already knows, just stop already, you are stupid.
That's right. But the people need to find God so that they can make an agreement with Him... or not.

You fail to understand even a little the greatness of God, and the greatness to which He is bringing His people. God is bringing people into God-ness. How in the world stupid are you trying to proclaim yourself to be? God doesn't coerce God. God doesn't want to coerce God. In other words, God has essentially made us in so great of a way that we have enough God-like qualities in us that He "can't" always tell exactly where we as individuals stand in our minds and spirits way down deep.

God is making perfect people. He made them when He made Adam and Eve. Part of perfection is the ability to choose anything, even to become imperfect. And that is what they chose. We would do the same. So why go through the trouble of making us all perfect from scratch? We are that deep, way down inside of ourselves.

I have made my Heaven-agreement with God. I did it by accepting Jesus-salvation. I will be made perfect withouit evil in the new universe. If you don't want to be made perfect, good ridance, because you and your evil won't be there. But if you want perfection and loss fo all evil, make your agreement with God for Jesus-salvation before it is too late for you, and you are locked into your evil by death... where you won't be able to make any more decisions.

Not really? Why would that be part of perfection? If you can become imperfect then you are not perfect, perfect doesn't mean to have the ability to do anything. In fact the definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement, meaning that it can't get any better, going from perfect to imperfect is stupid and makes no sense, a perfect being wouldn't pick to go to hell and wouldn't pick to be imperfect. If Adam and Eve were perfect they wouldn't have committed a sin and made whole humanity suffer, it's clear they were not perfect. God doesn't need to wait for anyone to be born, he can simply create more people, in fact he could create an infinite amount of people so I don't see the point of your comment there. People don't need to find God because he already knows who would make the agreement with him and who wouldn't, so again he wouldn't need to wait on anything. Your logic is flawed, quit saying stupid shit and go to bed.

Being perfect involves not only having the ability to become imperfect, but also the not-using of this ability. And that is what Adam and Eve were before they used their ability and became imperfect. At the exact instant that they used their ability to become imperfect, their imperfection started. Before that they were still perfect, because they chose to not become imperfect even though they had that ability all along.

You are not a perfect being, but you are choosing to remain imperfect and go to Hell. You can choose otherwise, because God opened up the agreement to you, to His salvation by your accepting of Jesus.

As I said, you are judging perfection from an imperfect standpoint.

God is love. Love of God is most important. People were given a touch of God. God loves people as He loves Himself. In that love, He does what is good for them - offers them a way back into perfection. But also, in that love, God gives them Hell if that is what they want. What do you want?

The people don't know about the agreement until they find out about it. They don't make the agreement with God until they make it. Look up simple contract law. There must be a meeting of the minds before there can be a contract (agreement). If the people don't know, they won't have a meeting of the minds. The simple fact that God in His wisdom knows ahead of time who those people of the agreement will be, doesn't make the agreement to already have been consummated.

Look at yourself, for example. (It seems) you haven't made the salvation agreement with God, yet. If you haven't, God still knows whether or not you will. If you will, that doesn't mean you have done it, yet. How can God give you salvation when you are not agreeing to it? Agree to it, and be saved.

Please, stop. You can't say, this car is perfect but when it stops working it wont be perfect anymore. That would mean the car wasn't perfect to begin with. If you are perfect, even if you have the ability to do stupid things like becoming imperfect you wouldn't do it BECAUSE YOU ARE PERFECT, WHY WOULD A PERFECT BEING CHOOSE TO BECOME IMPERFECT ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED?

You are making my eyes bleed, stop.

When they put true, perfect AI in the car, and give it the choice to make itself imperfect, then your example will have something to do with what we are talking about.



EDIT: Lack of experience.

Holy shit you are dense, aren't you? DO YOU KNOW THE DEFINITION OF PERFECT? OH WAIT, I JUST FUCKING QUOTED IT, LET ME QUOTE IT AGAIN ''definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement'' Do you understand what this means? BEYOND improvement? A perfect being wouldn't have lack of experience you dumbfuck, he wouldn't make mistakes, otherwise he wouldn't be fucking perfect.

How in the world dense are you? A perfect clock doesn't have any experience. Yet it is perfect, and possibly perfect in a way that it will never become imperfect.

So why do you think experience has anything to do with perfection? Your definition doesn't have anything to do with improving or not improving, having experience or lack of experience.

What's the matter with you? You provide a definition that doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about. And you don't even realize it it. Your density reaches even beyond the gravity of that other thread.

If you are perfect you don't need experience because that would mean that experience would make you better therefore you WOULDN'T BE PERFECT IF EXPERIENCE CAN MAKE YOU BETTER.

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[BADecker]

Are you saying god can't make perfect people? Then why call him a god?
God made perfect people... Adam and Eve.

''So, He has devised a plan whereby he will get perfect people that don't have a hint of evil in them. He will let all people live for a short while - maybe 100 years or less - in their evil''

Why would an omniscient god need to wait if he already knows who is going to be evil and who is not, can't you see the stupidity in your sentence?
Wait for what? Didn't you even read what I said? ALL people are evil, and God knows it. God is waiting for people to be born so He can make a Heaven-agreement with as many as are willing.

''During that time He will find those people who want to be made into good and perfect people''

An omniscient god doesn't need to find anything he already knows, just stop already, you are stupid.
That's right. But the people need to find God so that they can make an agreement with Him... or not.

You fail to understand even a little the greatness of God, and the greatness to which He is bringing His people. God is bringing people into God-ness. How in the world stupid are you trying to proclaim yourself to be? God doesn't coerce God. God doesn't want to coerce God. In other words, God has essentially made us in so great of a way that we have enough God-like qualities in us that He "can't" always tell exactly where we as individuals stand in our minds and spirits way down deep.

God is making perfect people. He made them when He made Adam and Eve. Part of perfection is the ability to choose anything, even to become imperfect. And that is what they chose. We would do the same. So why go through the trouble of making us all perfect from scratch? We are that deep, way down inside of ourselves.

I have made my Heaven-agreement with God. I did it by accepting Jesus-salvation. I will be made perfect withouit evil in the new universe. If you don't want to be made perfect, good ridance, because you and your evil won't be there. But if you want perfection and loss fo all evil, make your agreement with God for Jesus-salvation before it is too late for you, and you are locked into your evil by death... where you won't be able to make any more decisions.

Not really? Why would that be part of perfection? If you can become imperfect then you are not perfect, perfect doesn't mean to have the ability to do anything. In fact the definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement, meaning that it can't get any better, going from perfect to imperfect is stupid and makes no sense, a perfect being wouldn't pick to go to hell and wouldn't pick to be imperfect. If Adam and Eve were perfect they wouldn't have committed a sin and made whole humanity suffer, it's clear they were not perfect. God doesn't need to wait for anyone to be born, he can simply create more people, in fact he could create an infinite amount of people so I don't see the point of your comment there. People don't need to find God because he already knows who would make the agreement with him and who wouldn't, so again he wouldn't need to wait on anything. Your logic is flawed, quit saying stupid shit and go to bed.

Being perfect involves not only having the ability to become imperfect, but also the not-using of this ability. And that is what Adam and Eve were before they used their ability and became imperfect. At the exact instant that they used their ability to become imperfect, their imperfection started. Before that they were still perfect, because they chose to not become imperfect even though they had that ability all along.

You are not a perfect being, but you are choosing to remain imperfect and go to Hell. You can choose otherwise, because God opened up the agreement to you, to His salvation by your accepting of Jesus.

As I said, you are judging perfection from an imperfect standpoint.

God is love. Love of God is most important. People were given a touch of God. God loves people as He loves Himself. In that love, He does what is good for them - offers them a way back into perfection. But also, in that love, God gives them Hell if that is what they want. What do you want?

The people don't know about the agreement until they find out about it. They don't make the agreement with God until they make it. Look up simple contract law. There must be a meeting of the minds before there can be a contract (agreement). If the people don't know, they won't have a meeting of the minds. The simple fact that God in His wisdom knows ahead of time who those people of the agreement will be, doesn't make the agreement to already have been consummated.

Look at yourself, for example. (It seems) you haven't made the salvation agreement with God, yet. If you haven't, God still knows whether or not you will. If you will, that doesn't mean you have done it, yet. How can God give you salvation when you are not agreeing to it? Agree to it, and be saved.

Please, stop. You can't say, this car is perfect but when it stops working it wont be perfect anymore. That would mean the car wasn't perfect to begin with. If you are perfect, even if you have the ability to do stupid things like becoming imperfect you wouldn't do it BECAUSE YOU ARE PERFECT, WHY WOULD A PERFECT BEING CHOOSE TO BECOME IMPERFECT ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED?

You are making my eyes bleed, stop.

When they put true, perfect AI in the car, and give it the choice to make itself imperfect, then your example will have something to do with what we are talking about.



EDIT: Lack of experience.

Holy shit you are dense, aren't you? DO YOU KNOW THE DEFINITION OF PERFECT? OH WAIT, I JUST FUCKING QUOTED IT, LET ME QUOTE IT AGAIN ''definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement'' Do you understand what this means? BEYOND improvement? A perfect being wouldn't have lack of experience you dumbfuck, he wouldn't make mistakes, otherwise he wouldn't be fucking perfect.

How in the world dense are you? A perfect clock doesn't have any experience. Yet it is perfect, and possibly perfect in a way that it will never become imperfect.

So why do you think experience has anything to do with perfection? Your definition doesn't have anything to do with improving or not improving, having experience or lack of experience.

What's the matter with you? You provide a definition that doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about. And you don't even realize it it. Your density reaches even beyond the gravity of that other thread.

If you are perfect you don't need experience because that would mean that experience would make you better therefore you WOULDN'T BE PERFECT IF EXPERIENCE CAN MAKE YOU BETTER.

Except for one little detail. When Adam and Eve got their experience, it made them imperfect. How is imperfect better? But you. You have the knowledge of their experience to fall back on. And you still don't want perfection. What? Are you after more experience?

[qwik2learn]

Crying is very therapeutic and helps one to get in touch with emotions. Trance music helped me to connect with my emotions; you can find a lot of "uplifting trance" music as well as "chillout music" for this purpose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Uzk2v7WaPA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDV0PMvhrB8

[BADecker]

Crying is very therapeutic and helps one to get in touch with emotions. Trance music helped me to connect with my emotions; you can find a lot of "uplifting trance" music as well as "chillout music" for this purpose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Uzk2v7WaPA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDV0PMvhrB8

I think we could find videos that show that laughing is even better. I sure hope that Astargath finds God so that he can be laughing for eternity, rather than crying.

[qwik2learn]

Crying is very therapeutic and helps one to get in touch with emotions. Trance music helped me to connect with my emotions; you can find a lot of "uplifting trance" music as well as "chillout music" for this purpose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Uzk2v7WaPA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDV0PMvhrB8

I think we could find videos that show that laughing is even better. I sure hope that Astargath finds God so that he can be laughing for eternity, rather than crying.

Did you ever try laughter yoga? I have experimented with some techniques, like one from Osho: raise both hands in the air and shout "YAHOO"! He recommends doing this for 3 hours.

You can also consider using "Plant Teachers":

Nutmeg Space Paste: "Exactly Like Pot", and it contains several of these Top 10 Herbs. I recommend using applesauce instead of maple syrup in the recipe.

Psychedelic researcher Rick Doblin... said that the study cast "a considerable doubt on the assertion that mystical experiences catalyzed by drugs are in any way inferior to non-drug mystical experiences in both their immediate content and long-term effects".[33] This sentiment was echoed by psychiatrist William A. Richards, who in a 2007 review stated "[psychedelic] mushroom use may constitute one technology for evoking revelatory experiences that are similar, if not identical, to those that occur through so-called spontaneous alterations of brain chemistry."[34]

In a 14-month followup, the researchers found that 94% of the volunteers rated their experiences with the drug as one of the top five most spiritually significant of their lives (44% said it was the single most significant). None of the 90 sessions that took place throughout the study were rated as decreasing well-being or life satisfaction. Moreover, 89% reported positive changes in their behaviors as a result of the experiences. The conditions of the experimental design included a single drug experience a month, on a couch, in a living-room-like setting, with eye shades and carefully chosen music (classical and world music). As an additional precaution to guide the experience, as with the 2006 study, the 2011 study included a "monitor" or "guide" whom the volunteers supposedly trusted.

Basic summary of the entheogen experience:
"I laughed, I cried, I EXPERIENCED THE DIVINE POWER WITHIN"!



Japanese companies hire people to make staff cry--It is supposed to help people bond

"Japanese are not used to crying in front of people. But once you cry in front of others, the environment will change, particularly in a business."
The idea is to show off your vulnerability - when others see that, it's supposed to bring people together so they work better as a team.
The whole premise of Hiroki's business is the idea that Japanese people don't cry enough. I wonder if this is a stereotype, but most of today's attendees seem to agree.
"But I know that after you cry and let people see your vulnerability, you can get along even better with people which is also good for the company. It creates a better working environment and people get along better."

[Astargath]

Are you saying god can't make perfect people? Then why call him a god?
God made perfect people... Adam and Eve.

''So, He has devised a plan whereby he will get perfect people that don't have a hint of evil in them. He will let all people live for a short while - maybe 100 years or less - in their evil''

Why would an omniscient god need to wait if he already knows who is going to be evil and who is not, can't you see the stupidity in your sentence?
Wait for what? Didn't you even read what I said? ALL people are evil, and God knows it. God is waiting for people to be born so He can make a Heaven-agreement with as many as are willing.

''During that time He will find those people who want to be made into good and perfect people''

An omniscient god doesn't need to find anything he already knows, just stop already, you are stupid.
That's right. But the people need to find God so that they can make an agreement with Him... or not.

You fail to understand even a little the greatness of God, and the greatness to which He is bringing His people. God is bringing people into God-ness. How in the world stupid are you trying to proclaim yourself to be? God doesn't coerce God. God doesn't want to coerce God. In other words, God has essentially made us in so great of a way that we have enough God-like qualities in us that He "can't" always tell exactly where we as individuals stand in our minds and spirits way down deep.

God is making perfect people. He made them when He made Adam and Eve. Part of perfection is the ability to choose anything, even to become imperfect. And that is what they chose. We would do the same. So why go through the trouble of making us all perfect from scratch? We are that deep, way down inside of ourselves.

I have made my Heaven-agreement with God. I did it by accepting Jesus-salvation. I will be made perfect withouit evil in the new universe. If you don't want to be made perfect, good ridance, because you and your evil won't be there. But if you want perfection and loss fo all evil, make your agreement with God for Jesus-salvation before it is too late for you, and you are locked into your evil by death... where you won't be able to make any more decisions.

Not really? Why would that be part of perfection? If you can become imperfect then you are not perfect, perfect doesn't mean to have the ability to do anything. In fact the definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement, meaning that it can't get any better, going from perfect to imperfect is stupid and makes no sense, a perfect being wouldn't pick to go to hell and wouldn't pick to be imperfect. If Adam and Eve were perfect they wouldn't have committed a sin and made whole humanity suffer, it's clear they were not perfect. God doesn't need to wait for anyone to be born, he can simply create more people, in fact he could create an infinite amount of people so I don't see the point of your comment there. People don't need to find God because he already knows who would make the agreement with him and who wouldn't, so again he wouldn't need to wait on anything. Your logic is flawed, quit saying stupid shit and go to bed.

Being perfect involves not only having the ability to become imperfect, but also the not-using of this ability. And that is what Adam and Eve were before they used their ability and became imperfect. At the exact instant that they used their ability to become imperfect, their imperfection started. Before that they were still perfect, because they chose to not become imperfect even though they had that ability all along.

You are not a perfect being, but you are choosing to remain imperfect and go to Hell. You can choose otherwise, because God opened up the agreement to you, to His salvation by your accepting of Jesus.

As I said, you are judging perfection from an imperfect standpoint.

God is love. Love of God is most important. People were given a touch of God. God loves people as He loves Himself. In that love, He does what is good for them - offers them a way back into perfection. But also, in that love, God gives them Hell if that is what they want. What do you want?

The people don't know about the agreement until they find out about it. They don't make the agreement with God until they make it. Look up simple contract law. There must be a meeting of the minds before there can be a contract (agreement). If the people don't know, they won't have a meeting of the minds. The simple fact that God in His wisdom knows ahead of time who those people of the agreement will be, doesn't make the agreement to already have been consummated.

Look at yourself, for example. (It seems) you haven't made the salvation agreement with God, yet. If you haven't, God still knows whether or not you will. If you will, that doesn't mean you have done it, yet. How can God give you salvation when you are not agreeing to it? Agree to it, and be saved.

Please, stop. You can't say, this car is perfect but when it stops working it wont be perfect anymore. That would mean the car wasn't perfect to begin with. If you are perfect, even if you have the ability to do stupid things like becoming imperfect you wouldn't do it BECAUSE YOU ARE PERFECT, WHY WOULD A PERFECT BEING CHOOSE TO BECOME IMPERFECT ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED?

You are making my eyes bleed, stop.

When they put true, perfect AI in the car, and give it the choice to make itself imperfect, then your example will have something to do with what we are talking about.



EDIT: Lack of experience.

Holy shit you are dense, aren't you? DO YOU KNOW THE DEFINITION OF PERFECT? OH WAIT, I JUST FUCKING QUOTED IT, LET ME QUOTE IT AGAIN ''definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement'' Do you understand what this means? BEYOND improvement? A perfect being wouldn't have lack of experience you dumbfuck, he wouldn't make mistakes, otherwise he wouldn't be fucking perfect.

How in the world dense are you? A perfect clock doesn't have any experience. Yet it is perfect, and possibly perfect in a way that it will never become imperfect.

So why do you think experience has anything to do with perfection? Your definition doesn't have anything to do with improving or not improving, having experience or lack of experience.

What's the matter with you? You provide a definition that doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about. And you don't even realize it it. Your density reaches even beyond the gravity of that other thread.

If you are perfect you don't need experience because that would mean that experience would make you better therefore you WOULDN'T BE PERFECT IF EXPERIENCE CAN MAKE YOU BETTER.

Except for one little detail. When Adam and Eve got their experience, it made them imperfect. How is imperfect better? But you. You have the knowledge of their experience to fall back on. And you still don't want perfection. What? Are you after more experience?

Do you know you keep saying the same thing? Let me break it down for you so it's easier to understand.
1. You are claiming Adam and Eve were perfect
2. You claim they made a mistake (Eating the fruit and disobeying god) which you claim made them imperfect

Here is the problem, you are defining a perfect being as someone who is able to make mistakes and transforms itself into an imperfect being. Maybe your definition of perfection is different than mine so I would like to read your definition because otherwise we talk in circles here.

For me a perfect being means someone who wont make mistakes, otherwise why would I call him perfect?

[yaloyalo]

Can't argee. What abot Stephen Hokking?

[Haveyouseenthisgirl]

The Journal of Religion and Health is an interdisciplinary peer-reviewed academic journal published by Springer Science+Business media.

[BADecker]

Are you saying god can't make perfect people? Then why call him a god?
God made perfect people... Adam and Eve.

''So, He has devised a plan whereby he will get perfect people that don't have a hint of evil in them. He will let all people live for a short while - maybe 100 years or less - in their evil''

Why would an omniscient god need to wait if he already knows who is going to be evil and who is not, can't you see the stupidity in your sentence?
Wait for what? Didn't you even read what I said? ALL people are evil, and God knows it. God is waiting for people to be born so He can make a Heaven-agreement with as many as are willing.

''During that time He will find those people who want to be made into good and perfect people''

An omniscient god doesn't need to find anything he already knows, just stop already, you are stupid.
That's right. But the people need to find God so that they can make an agreement with Him... or not.

You fail to understand even a little the greatness of God, and the greatness to which He is bringing His people. God is bringing people into God-ness. How in the world stupid are you trying to proclaim yourself to be? God doesn't coerce God. God doesn't want to coerce God. In other words, God has essentially made us in so great of a way that we have enough God-like qualities in us that He "can't" always tell exactly where we as individuals stand in our minds and spirits way down deep.

God is making perfect people. He made them when He made Adam and Eve. Part of perfection is the ability to choose anything, even to become imperfect. And that is what they chose. We would do the same. So why go through the trouble of making us all perfect from scratch? We are that deep, way down inside of ourselves.

I have made my Heaven-agreement with God. I did it by accepting Jesus-salvation. I will be made perfect withouit evil in the new universe. If you don't want to be made perfect, good ridance, because you and your evil won't be there. But if you want perfection and loss fo all evil, make your agreement with God for Jesus-salvation before it is too late for you, and you are locked into your evil by death... where you won't be able to make any more decisions.

Not really? Why would that be part of perfection? If you can become imperfect then you are not perfect, perfect doesn't mean to have the ability to do anything. In fact the definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement, meaning that it can't get any better, going from perfect to imperfect is stupid and makes no sense, a perfect being wouldn't pick to go to hell and wouldn't pick to be imperfect. If Adam and Eve were perfect they wouldn't have committed a sin and made whole humanity suffer, it's clear they were not perfect. God doesn't need to wait for anyone to be born, he can simply create more people, in fact he could create an infinite amount of people so I don't see the point of your comment there. People don't need to find God because he already knows who would make the agreement with him and who wouldn't, so again he wouldn't need to wait on anything. Your logic is flawed, quit saying stupid shit and go to bed.

Being perfect involves not only having the ability to become imperfect, but also the not-using of this ability. And that is what Adam and Eve were before they used their ability and became imperfect. At the exact instant that they used their ability to become imperfect, their imperfection started. Before that they were still perfect, because they chose to not become imperfect even though they had that ability all along.

You are not a perfect being, but you are choosing to remain imperfect and go to Hell. You can choose otherwise, because God opened up the agreement to you, to His salvation by your accepting of Jesus.

As I said, you are judging perfection from an imperfect standpoint.

God is love. Love of God is most important. People were given a touch of God. God loves people as He loves Himself. In that love, He does what is good for them - offers them a way back into perfection. But also, in that love, God gives them Hell if that is what they want. What do you want?

The people don't know about the agreement until they find out about it. They don't make the agreement with God until they make it. Look up simple contract law. There must be a meeting of the minds before there can be a contract (agreement). If the people don't know, they won't have a meeting of the minds. The simple fact that God in His wisdom knows ahead of time who those people of the agreement will be, doesn't make the agreement to already have been consummated.

Look at yourself, for example. (It seems) you haven't made the salvation agreement with God, yet. If you haven't, God still knows whether or not you will. If you will, that doesn't mean you have done it, yet. How can God give you salvation when you are not agreeing to it? Agree to it, and be saved.

Please, stop. You can't say, this car is perfect but when it stops working it wont be perfect anymore. That would mean the car wasn't perfect to begin with. If you are perfect, even if you have the ability to do stupid things like becoming imperfect you wouldn't do it BECAUSE YOU ARE PERFECT, WHY WOULD A PERFECT BEING CHOOSE TO BECOME IMPERFECT ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED?

You are making my eyes bleed, stop.

When they put true, perfect AI in the car, and give it the choice to make itself imperfect, then your example will have something to do with what we are talking about.



EDIT: Lack of experience.

Holy shit you are dense, aren't you? DO YOU KNOW THE DEFINITION OF PERFECT? OH WAIT, I JUST FUCKING QUOTED IT, LET ME QUOTE IT AGAIN ''definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement'' Do you understand what this means? BEYOND improvement? A perfect being wouldn't have lack of experience you dumbfuck, he wouldn't make mistakes, otherwise he wouldn't be fucking perfect.

How in the world dense are you? A perfect clock doesn't have any experience. Yet it is perfect, and possibly perfect in a way that it will never become imperfect.

So why do you think experience has anything to do with perfection? Your definition doesn't have anything to do with improving or not improving, having experience or lack of experience.

What's the matter with you? You provide a definition that doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about. And you don't even realize it it. Your density reaches even beyond the gravity of that other thread.

If you are perfect you don't need experience because that would mean that experience would make you better therefore you WOULDN'T BE PERFECT IF EXPERIENCE CAN MAKE YOU BETTER.

Except for one little detail. When Adam and Eve got their experience, it made them imperfect. How is imperfect better? But you. You have the knowledge of their experience to fall back on. And you still don't want perfection. What? Are you after more experience?

Do you know you keep saying the same thing? Let me break it down for you so it's easier to understand.
1. You are claiming Adam and Eve were perfect
2. You claim they made a mistake (Eating the fruit and disobeying god) which you claim made them imperfect

Here is the problem, you are defining a perfect being as someone who is able to make mistakes and transforms itself into an imperfect being. Maybe your definition of perfection is different than mine so I would like to read your definition because otherwise we talk in circles here.

For me a perfect being means someone who wont make mistakes, otherwise why would I call him perfect?

Let's say you have a gun. Nothing wrong with having a gun. Can use it for target practice, hunting, and protection.

Can also shoot yourself in the foot. Foot wounds never really heal up correctly, especially if they are bad ones. Wouldn't want to do it. But can do it. Freedom. Choice. Perfection of ability, and of foot

Foot is in perfect shape until you shoot it. Not so perfect after you do. You learn your lesson after you do. But foot never perfect again.

If a friend warns you not to do it ahead of time, you don't need to gain the experience. But if you shoot, perfection lost.

[Astargath]

Are you saying god can't make perfect people? Then why call him a god?
God made perfect people... Adam and Eve.

''So, He has devised a plan whereby he will get perfect people that don't have a hint of evil in them. He will let all people live for a short while - maybe 100 years or less - in their evil''

Why would an omniscient god need to wait if he already knows who is going to be evil and who is not, can't you see the stupidity in your sentence?
Wait for what? Didn't you even read what I said? ALL people are evil, and God knows it. God is waiting for people to be born so He can make a Heaven-agreement with as many as are willing.

''During that time He will find those people who want to be made into good and perfect people''

An omniscient god doesn't need to find anything he already knows, just stop already, you are stupid.
That's right. But the people need to find God so that they can make an agreement with Him... or not.

You fail to understand even a little the greatness of God, and the greatness to which He is bringing His people. God is bringing people into God-ness. How in the world stupid are you trying to proclaim yourself to be? God doesn't coerce God. God doesn't want to coerce God. In other words, God has essentially made us in so great of a way that we have enough God-like qualities in us that He "can't" always tell exactly where we as individuals stand in our minds and spirits way down deep.

God is making perfect people. He made them when He made Adam and Eve. Part of perfection is the ability to choose anything, even to become imperfect. And that is what they chose. We would do the same. So why go through the trouble of making us all perfect from scratch? We are that deep, way down inside of ourselves.

I have made my Heaven-agreement with God. I did it by accepting Jesus-salvation. I will be made perfect withouit evil in the new universe. If you don't want to be made perfect, good ridance, because you and your evil won't be there. But if you want perfection and loss fo all evil, make your agreement with God for Jesus-salvation before it is too late for you, and you are locked into your evil by death... where you won't be able to make any more decisions.

Not really? Why would that be part of perfection? If you can become imperfect then you are not perfect, perfect doesn't mean to have the ability to do anything. In fact the definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement, meaning that it can't get any better, going from perfect to imperfect is stupid and makes no sense, a perfect being wouldn't pick to go to hell and wouldn't pick to be imperfect. If Adam and Eve were perfect they wouldn't have committed a sin and made whole humanity suffer, it's clear they were not perfect. God doesn't need to wait for anyone to be born, he can simply create more people, in fact he could create an infinite amount of people so I don't see the point of your comment there. People don't need to find God because he already knows who would make the agreement with him and who wouldn't, so again he wouldn't need to wait on anything. Your logic is flawed, quit saying stupid shit and go to bed.

Being perfect involves not only having the ability to become imperfect, but also the not-using of this ability. And that is what Adam and Eve were before they used their ability and became imperfect. At the exact instant that they used their ability to become imperfect, their imperfection started. Before that they were still perfect, because they chose to not become imperfect even though they had that ability all along.

You are not a perfect being, but you are choosing to remain imperfect and go to Hell. You can choose otherwise, because God opened up the agreement to you, to His salvation by your accepting of Jesus.

As I said, you are judging perfection from an imperfect standpoint.

God is love. Love of God is most important. People were given a touch of God. God loves people as He loves Himself. In that love, He does what is good for them - offers them a way back into perfection. But also, in that love, God gives them Hell if that is what they want. What do you want?

The people don't know about the agreement until they find out about it. They don't make the agreement with God until they make it. Look up simple contract law. There must be a meeting of the minds before there can be a contract (agreement). If the people don't know, they won't have a meeting of the minds. The simple fact that God in His wisdom knows ahead of time who those people of the agreement will be, doesn't make the agreement to already have been consummated.

Look at yourself, for example. (It seems) you haven't made the salvation agreement with God, yet. If you haven't, God still knows whether or not you will. If you will, that doesn't mean you have done it, yet. How can God give you salvation when you are not agreeing to it? Agree to it, and be saved.

Please, stop. You can't say, this car is perfect but when it stops working it wont be perfect anymore. That would mean the car wasn't perfect to begin with. If you are perfect, even if you have the ability to do stupid things like becoming imperfect you wouldn't do it BECAUSE YOU ARE PERFECT, WHY WOULD A PERFECT BEING CHOOSE TO BECOME IMPERFECT ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED?

You are making my eyes bleed, stop.

When they put true, perfect AI in the car, and give it the choice to make itself imperfect, then your example will have something to do with what we are talking about.



EDIT: Lack of experience.

Holy shit you are dense, aren't you? DO YOU KNOW THE DEFINITION OF PERFECT? OH WAIT, I JUST FUCKING QUOTED IT, LET ME QUOTE IT AGAIN ''definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement'' Do you understand what this means? BEYOND improvement? A perfect being wouldn't have lack of experience you dumbfuck, he wouldn't make mistakes, otherwise he wouldn't be fucking perfect.

How in the world dense are you? A perfect clock doesn't have any experience. Yet it is perfect, and possibly perfect in a way that it will never become imperfect.

So why do you think experience has anything to do with perfection? Your definition doesn't have anything to do with improving or not improving, having experience or lack of experience.

What's the matter with you? You provide a definition that doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about. And you don't even realize it it. Your density reaches even beyond the gravity of that other thread.

If you are perfect you don't need experience because that would mean that experience would make you better therefore you WOULDN'T BE PERFECT IF EXPERIENCE CAN MAKE YOU BETTER.

Except for one little detail. When Adam and Eve got their experience, it made them imperfect. How is imperfect better? But you. You have the knowledge of their experience to fall back on. And you still don't want perfection. What? Are you after more experience?

Do you know you keep saying the same thing? Let me break it down for you so it's easier to understand.
1. You are claiming Adam and Eve were perfect
2. You claim they made a mistake (Eating the fruit and disobeying god) which you claim made them imperfect

Here is the problem, you are defining a perfect being as someone who is able to make mistakes and transforms itself into an imperfect being. Maybe your definition of perfection is different than mine so I would like to read your definition because otherwise we talk in circles here.

For me a perfect being means someone who wont make mistakes, otherwise why would I call him perfect?

Let's say you have a gun. Nothing wrong with having a gun. Can use it for target practice, hunting, and protection.

Can also shoot yourself in the foot. Foot wounds never really heal up correctly, especially if they are bad ones. Wouldn't want to do it. But can do it. Freedom. Choice. Perfection of ability, and of foot

Foot is in perfect shape until you shoot it. Not so perfect after you do. You learn your lesson after you do. But foot never perfect again.

If a friend warns you not to do it ahead of time, you don't need to gain the experience. But if you shoot, perfection lost.

If you are perfect you can't lose perfection otherwise you are not perfect to begin with, again just give me your definition of perfect, this is pointless. Someone perfect wouldn't shoot himself.

[BADecker]

Are you saying god can't make perfect people? Then why call him a god?
God made perfect people... Adam and Eve.

''So, He has devised a plan whereby he will get perfect people that don't have a hint of evil in them. He will let all people live for a short while - maybe 100 years or less - in their evil''

Why would an omniscient god need to wait if he already knows who is going to be evil and who is not, can't you see the stupidity in your sentence?
Wait for what? Didn't you even read what I said? ALL people are evil, and God knows it. God is waiting for people to be born so He can make a Heaven-agreement with as many as are willing.

''During that time He will find those people who want to be made into good and perfect people''

An omniscient god doesn't need to find anything he already knows, just stop already, you are stupid.
That's right. But the people need to find God so that they can make an agreement with Him... or not.

You fail to understand even a little the greatness of God, and the greatness to which He is bringing His people. God is bringing people into God-ness. How in the world stupid are you trying to proclaim yourself to be? God doesn't coerce God. God doesn't want to coerce God. In other words, God has essentially made us in so great of a way that we have enough God-like qualities in us that He "can't" always tell exactly where we as individuals stand in our minds and spirits way down deep.

God is making perfect people. He made them when He made Adam and Eve. Part of perfection is the ability to choose anything, even to become imperfect. And that is what they chose. We would do the same. So why go through the trouble of making us all perfect from scratch? We are that deep, way down inside of ourselves.

I have made my Heaven-agreement with God. I did it by accepting Jesus-salvation. I will be made perfect withouit evil in the new universe. If you don't want to be made perfect, good ridance, because you and your evil won't be there. But if you want perfection and loss fo all evil, make your agreement with God for Jesus-salvation before it is too late for you, and you are locked into your evil by death... where you won't be able to make any more decisions.

Not really? Why would that be part of perfection? If you can become imperfect then you are not perfect, perfect doesn't mean to have the ability to do anything. In fact the definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement, meaning that it can't get any better, going from perfect to imperfect is stupid and makes no sense, a perfect being wouldn't pick to go to hell and wouldn't pick to be imperfect. If Adam and Eve were perfect they wouldn't have committed a sin and made whole humanity suffer, it's clear they were not perfect. God doesn't need to wait for anyone to be born, he can simply create more people, in fact he could create an infinite amount of people so I don't see the point of your comment there. People don't need to find God because he already knows who would make the agreement with him and who wouldn't, so again he wouldn't need to wait on anything. Your logic is flawed, quit saying stupid shit and go to bed.

Being perfect involves not only having the ability to become imperfect, but also the not-using of this ability. And that is what Adam and Eve were before they used their ability and became imperfect. At the exact instant that they used their ability to become imperfect, their imperfection started. Before that they were still perfect, because they chose to not become imperfect even though they had that ability all along.

You are not a perfect being, but you are choosing to remain imperfect and go to Hell. You can choose otherwise, because God opened up the agreement to you, to His salvation by your accepting of Jesus.

As I said, you are judging perfection from an imperfect standpoint.

God is love. Love of God is most important. People were given a touch of God. God loves people as He loves Himself. In that love, He does what is good for them - offers them a way back into perfection. But also, in that love, God gives them Hell if that is what they want. What do you want?

The people don't know about the agreement until they find out about it. They don't make the agreement with God until they make it. Look up simple contract law. There must be a meeting of the minds before there can be a contract (agreement). If the people don't know, they won't have a meeting of the minds. The simple fact that God in His wisdom knows ahead of time who those people of the agreement will be, doesn't make the agreement to already have been consummated.

Look at yourself, for example. (It seems) you haven't made the salvation agreement with God, yet. If you haven't, God still knows whether or not you will. If you will, that doesn't mean you have done it, yet. How can God give you salvation when you are not agreeing to it? Agree to it, and be saved.

Please, stop. You can't say, this car is perfect but when it stops working it wont be perfect anymore. That would mean the car wasn't perfect to begin with. If you are perfect, even if you have the ability to do stupid things like becoming imperfect you wouldn't do it BECAUSE YOU ARE PERFECT, WHY WOULD A PERFECT BEING CHOOSE TO BECOME IMPERFECT ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED?

You are making my eyes bleed, stop.

When they put true, perfect AI in the car, and give it the choice to make itself imperfect, then your example will have something to do with what we are talking about.



EDIT: Lack of experience.

Holy shit you are dense, aren't you? DO YOU KNOW THE DEFINITION OF PERFECT? OH WAIT, I JUST FUCKING QUOTED IT, LET ME QUOTE IT AGAIN ''definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement'' Do you understand what this means? BEYOND improvement? A perfect being wouldn't have lack of experience you dumbfuck, he wouldn't make mistakes, otherwise he wouldn't be fucking perfect.

How in the world dense are you? A perfect clock doesn't have any experience. Yet it is perfect, and possibly perfect in a way that it will never become imperfect.

So why do you think experience has anything to do with perfection? Your definition doesn't have anything to do with improving or not improving, having experience or lack of experience.

What's the matter with you? You provide a definition that doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about. And you don't even realize it it. Your density reaches even beyond the gravity of that other thread.

If you are perfect you don't need experience because that would mean that experience would make you better therefore you WOULDN'T BE PERFECT IF EXPERIENCE CAN MAKE YOU BETTER.

Except for one little detail. When Adam and Eve got their experience, it made them imperfect. How is imperfect better? But you. You have the knowledge of their experience to fall back on. And you still don't want perfection. What? Are you after more experience?

Do you know you keep saying the same thing? Let me break it down for you so it's easier to understand.
1. You are claiming Adam and Eve were perfect
2. You claim they made a mistake (Eating the fruit and disobeying god) which you claim made them imperfect

Here is the problem, you are defining a perfect being as someone who is able to make mistakes and transforms itself into an imperfect being. Maybe your definition of perfection is different than mine so I would like to read your definition because otherwise we talk in circles here.

For me a perfect being means someone who wont make mistakes, otherwise why would I call him perfect?

Let's say you have a gun. Nothing wrong with having a gun. Can use it for target practice, hunting, and protection.

Can also shoot yourself in the foot. Foot wounds never really heal up correctly, especially if they are bad ones. Wouldn't want to do it. But can do it. Freedom. Choice. Perfection of ability, and of foot

Foot is in perfect shape until you shoot it. Not so perfect after you do. You learn your lesson after you do. But foot never perfect again.

If a friend warns you not to do it ahead of time, you don't need to gain the experience. But if you shoot, perfection lost.

If you are perfect you can't lose perfection otherwise you are not perfect to begin with, again just give me your definition of perfect, this is pointless. Someone perfect wouldn't shoot himself.

If you are perfect, and don't have the ability to throw perfection away, you are a robot without a will. You are missing out on part of perfection.

[Astargath]

Are you saying god can't make perfect people? Then why call him a god?
God made perfect people... Adam and Eve.

''So, He has devised a plan whereby he will get perfect people that don't have a hint of evil in them. He will let all people live for a short while - maybe 100 years or less - in their evil''

Why would an omniscient god need to wait if he already knows who is going to be evil and who is not, can't you see the stupidity in your sentence?
Wait for what? Didn't you even read what I said? ALL people are evil, and God knows it. God is waiting for people to be born so He can make a Heaven-agreement with as many as are willing.

''During that time He will find those people who want to be made into good and perfect people''

An omniscient god doesn't need to find anything he already knows, just stop already, you are stupid.
That's right. But the people need to find God so that they can make an agreement with Him... or not.

You fail to understand even a little the greatness of God, and the greatness to which He is bringing His people. God is bringing people into God-ness. How in the world stupid are you trying to proclaim yourself to be? God doesn't coerce God. God doesn't want to coerce God. In other words, God has essentially made us in so great of a way that we have enough God-like qualities in us that He "can't" always tell exactly where we as individuals stand in our minds and spirits way down deep.

God is making perfect people. He made them when He made Adam and Eve. Part of perfection is the ability to choose anything, even to become imperfect. And that is what they chose. We would do the same. So why go through the trouble of making us all perfect from scratch? We are that deep, way down inside of ourselves.

I have made my Heaven-agreement with God. I did it by accepting Jesus-salvation. I will be made perfect withouit evil in the new universe. If you don't want to be made perfect, good ridance, because you and your evil won't be there. But if you want perfection and loss fo all evil, make your agreement with God for Jesus-salvation before it is too late for you, and you are locked into your evil by death... where you won't be able to make any more decisions.

Not really? Why would that be part of perfection? If you can become imperfect then you are not perfect, perfect doesn't mean to have the ability to do anything. In fact the definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement, meaning that it can't get any better, going from perfect to imperfect is stupid and makes no sense, a perfect being wouldn't pick to go to hell and wouldn't pick to be imperfect. If Adam and Eve were perfect they wouldn't have committed a sin and made whole humanity suffer, it's clear they were not perfect. God doesn't need to wait for anyone to be born, he can simply create more people, in fact he could create an infinite amount of people so I don't see the point of your comment there. People don't need to find God because he already knows who would make the agreement with him and who wouldn't, so again he wouldn't need to wait on anything. Your logic is flawed, quit saying stupid shit and go to bed.

Being perfect involves not only having the ability to become imperfect, but also the not-using of this ability. And that is what Adam and Eve were before they used their ability and became imperfect. At the exact instant that they used their ability to become imperfect, their imperfection started. Before that they were still perfect, because they chose to not become imperfect even though they had that ability all along.

You are not a perfect being, but you are choosing to remain imperfect and go to Hell. You can choose otherwise, because God opened up the agreement to you, to His salvation by your accepting of Jesus.

As I said, you are judging perfection from an imperfect standpoint.

God is love. Love of God is most important. People were given a touch of God. God loves people as He loves Himself. In that love, He does what is good for them - offers them a way back into perfection. But also, in that love, God gives them Hell if that is what they want. What do you want?

The people don't know about the agreement until they find out about it. They don't make the agreement with God until they make it. Look up simple contract law. There must be a meeting of the minds before there can be a contract (agreement). If the people don't know, they won't have a meeting of the minds. The simple fact that God in His wisdom knows ahead of time who those people of the agreement will be, doesn't make the agreement to already have been consummated.

Look at yourself, for example. (It seems) you haven't made the salvation agreement with God, yet. If you haven't, God still knows whether or not you will. If you will, that doesn't mean you have done it, yet. How can God give you salvation when you are not agreeing to it? Agree to it, and be saved.

Please, stop. You can't say, this car is perfect but when it stops working it wont be perfect anymore. That would mean the car wasn't perfect to begin with. If you are perfect, even if you have the ability to do stupid things like becoming imperfect you wouldn't do it BECAUSE YOU ARE PERFECT, WHY WOULD A PERFECT BEING CHOOSE TO BECOME IMPERFECT ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED?

You are making my eyes bleed, stop.

When they put true, perfect AI in the car, and give it the choice to make itself imperfect, then your example will have something to do with what we are talking about.



EDIT: Lack of experience.

Holy shit you are dense, aren't you? DO YOU KNOW THE DEFINITION OF PERFECT? OH WAIT, I JUST FUCKING QUOTED IT, LET ME QUOTE IT AGAIN ''definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement'' Do you understand what this means? BEYOND improvement? A perfect being wouldn't have lack of experience you dumbfuck, he wouldn't make mistakes, otherwise he wouldn't be fucking perfect.

How in the world dense are you? A perfect clock doesn't have any experience. Yet it is perfect, and possibly perfect in a way that it will never become imperfect.

So why do you think experience has anything to do with perfection? Your definition doesn't have anything to do with improving or not improving, having experience or lack of experience.

What's the matter with you? You provide a definition that doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about. And you don't even realize it it. Your density reaches even beyond the gravity of that other thread.

If you are perfect you don't need experience because that would mean that experience would make you better therefore you WOULDN'T BE PERFECT IF EXPERIENCE CAN MAKE YOU BETTER.

Except for one little detail. When Adam and Eve got their experience, it made them imperfect. How is imperfect better? But you. You have the knowledge of their experience to fall back on. And you still don't want perfection. What? Are you after more experience?

Do you know you keep saying the same thing? Let me break it down for you so it's easier to understand.
1. You are claiming Adam and Eve were perfect
2. You claim they made a mistake (Eating the fruit and disobeying god) which you claim made them imperfect

Here is the problem, you are defining a perfect being as someone who is able to make mistakes and transforms itself into an imperfect being. Maybe your definition of perfection is different than mine so I would like to read your definition because otherwise we talk in circles here.

For me a perfect being means someone who wont make mistakes, otherwise why would I call him perfect?

Let's say you have a gun. Nothing wrong with having a gun. Can use it for target practice, hunting, and protection.

Can also shoot yourself in the foot. Foot wounds never really heal up correctly, especially if they are bad ones. Wouldn't want to do it. But can do it. Freedom. Choice. Perfection of ability, and of foot

Foot is in perfect shape until you shoot it. Not so perfect after you do. You learn your lesson after you do. But foot never perfect again.

If a friend warns you not to do it ahead of time, you don't need to gain the experience. But if you shoot, perfection lost.

If you are perfect you can't lose perfection otherwise you are not perfect to begin with, again just give me your definition of perfect, this is pointless. Someone perfect wouldn't shoot himself.

If you are perfect, and don't have the ability to throw perfection away, you are a robot without a will. You are missing out on part of perfection.

I'm not talking about the ability to throw away your perfection, you can have that but why would a perfect being use it?

[BADecker]

Are you saying god can't make perfect people? Then why call him a god?
God made perfect people... Adam and Eve.

''So, He has devised a plan whereby he will get perfect people that don't have a hint of evil in them. He will let all people live for a short while - maybe 100 years or less - in their evil''

Why would an omniscient god need to wait if he already knows who is going to be evil and who is not, can't you see the stupidity in your sentence?
Wait for what? Didn't you even read what I said? ALL people are evil, and God knows it. God is waiting for people to be born so He can make a Heaven-agreement with as many as are willing.

''During that time He will find those people who want to be made into good and perfect people''

An omniscient god doesn't need to find anything he already knows, just stop already, you are stupid.
That's right. But the people need to find God so that they can make an agreement with Him... or not.

You fail to understand even a little the greatness of God, and the greatness to which He is bringing His people. God is bringing people into God-ness. How in the world stupid are you trying to proclaim yourself to be? God doesn't coerce God. God doesn't want to coerce God. In other words, God has essentially made us in so great of a way that we have enough God-like qualities in us that He "can't" always tell exactly where we as individuals stand in our minds and spirits way down deep.

God is making perfect people. He made them when He made Adam and Eve. Part of perfection is the ability to choose anything, even to become imperfect. And that is what they chose. We would do the same. So why go through the trouble of making us all perfect from scratch? We are that deep, way down inside of ourselves.

I have made my Heaven-agreement with God. I did it by accepting Jesus-salvation. I will be made perfect withouit evil in the new universe. If you don't want to be made perfect, good ridance, because you and your evil won't be there. But if you want perfection and loss fo all evil, make your agreement with God for Jesus-salvation before it is too late for you, and you are locked into your evil by death... where you won't be able to make any more decisions.

Not really? Why would that be part of perfection? If you can become imperfect then you are not perfect, perfect doesn't mean to have the ability to do anything. In fact the definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement, meaning that it can't get any better, going from perfect to imperfect is stupid and makes no sense, a perfect being wouldn't pick to go to hell and wouldn't pick to be imperfect. If Adam and Eve were perfect they wouldn't have committed a sin and made whole humanity suffer, it's clear they were not perfect. God doesn't need to wait for anyone to be born, he can simply create more people, in fact he could create an infinite amount of people so I don't see the point of your comment there. People don't need to find God because he already knows who would make the agreement with him and who wouldn't, so again he wouldn't need to wait on anything. Your logic is flawed, quit saying stupid shit and go to bed.

Being perfect involves not only having the ability to become imperfect, but also the not-using of this ability. And that is what Adam and Eve were before they used their ability and became imperfect. At the exact instant that they used their ability to become imperfect, their imperfection started. Before that they were still perfect, because they chose to not become imperfect even though they had that ability all along.

You are not a perfect being, but you are choosing to remain imperfect and go to Hell. You can choose otherwise, because God opened up the agreement to you, to His salvation by your accepting of Jesus.

As I said, you are judging perfection from an imperfect standpoint.

God is love. Love of God is most important. People were given a touch of God. God loves people as He loves Himself. In that love, He does what is good for them - offers them a way back into perfection. But also, in that love, God gives them Hell if that is what they want. What do you want?

The people don't know about the agreement until they find out about it. They don't make the agreement with God until they make it. Look up simple contract law. There must be a meeting of the minds before there can be a contract (agreement). If the people don't know, they won't have a meeting of the minds. The simple fact that God in His wisdom knows ahead of time who those people of the agreement will be, doesn't make the agreement to already have been consummated.

Look at yourself, for example. (It seems) you haven't made the salvation agreement with God, yet. If you haven't, God still knows whether or not you will. If you will, that doesn't mean you have done it, yet. How can God give you salvation when you are not agreeing to it? Agree to it, and be saved.

Please, stop. You can't say, this car is perfect but when it stops working it wont be perfect anymore. That would mean the car wasn't perfect to begin with. If you are perfect, even if you have the ability to do stupid things like becoming imperfect you wouldn't do it BECAUSE YOU ARE PERFECT, WHY WOULD A PERFECT BEING CHOOSE TO BECOME IMPERFECT ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED?

You are making my eyes bleed, stop.

When they put true, perfect AI in the car, and give it the choice to make itself imperfect, then your example will have something to do with what we are talking about.



EDIT: Lack of experience.

Holy shit you are dense, aren't you? DO YOU KNOW THE DEFINITION OF PERFECT? OH WAIT, I JUST FUCKING QUOTED IT, LET ME QUOTE IT AGAIN ''definition is: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement'' Do you understand what this means? BEYOND improvement? A perfect being wouldn't have lack of experience you dumbfuck, he wouldn't make mistakes, otherwise he wouldn't be fucking perfect.

How in the world dense are you? A perfect clock doesn't have any experience. Yet it is perfect, and possibly perfect in a way that it will never become imperfect.

So why do you think experience has anything to do with perfection? Your definition doesn't have anything to do with improving or not improving, having experience or lack of experience.

What's the matter with you? You provide a definition that doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about. And you don't even realize it it. Your density reaches even beyond the gravity of that other thread.

If you are perfect you don't need experience because that would mean that experience would make you better therefore you WOULDN'T BE PERFECT IF EXPERIENCE CAN MAKE YOU BETTER.

Except for one little detail. When Adam and Eve got their experience, it made them imperfect. How is imperfect better? But you. You have the knowledge of their experience to fall back on. And you still don't want perfection. What? Are you after more experience?

Do you know you keep saying the same thing? Let me break it down for you so it's easier to understand.
1. You are claiming Adam and Eve were perfect
2. You claim they made a mistake (Eating the fruit and disobeying god) which you claim made them imperfect

Here is the problem, you are defining a perfect being as someone who is able to make mistakes and transforms itself into an imperfect being. Maybe your definition of perfection is different than mine so I would like to read your definition because otherwise we talk in circles here.

For me a perfect being means someone who wont make mistakes, otherwise why would I call him perfect?

Let's say you have a gun. Nothing wrong with having a gun. Can use it for target practice, hunting, and protection.

Can also shoot yourself in the foot. Foot wounds never really heal up correctly, especially if they are bad ones. Wouldn't want to do it. But can do it. Freedom. Choice. Perfection of ability, and of foot

Foot is in perfect shape until you shoot it. Not so perfect after you do. You learn your lesson after you do. But foot never perfect again.

If a friend warns you not to do it ahead of time, you don't need to gain the experience. But if you shoot, perfection lost.

If you are perfect you can't lose perfection otherwise you are not perfect to begin with, again just give me your definition of perfect, this is pointless. Someone perfect wouldn't shoot himself.

If you are perfect, and don't have the ability to throw perfection away, you are a robot without a will. You are missing out on part of perfection.

I'm not talking about the ability to throw away your perfection, you can have that but why would a perfect being use it?

At the time of the Judgment, God just might answer that question for us clearly... before he sends us to the place we have asked for... Heaven or Hell.

[CoinCube]

Astargath upthread you challenged Perry Marshals argument on the applicability of applying "Godel's incompleteness theorem to systems beyond mathematics.

His essay can be found here:
The #1 Mathematical Discovery of the 20th Century

Specifically you asked.

"And how do you know Perry Marshal is right? "
and
"How did you determine that what he said is right?"

You then go on to challenge his use of the word coherence and quoted a couple of half hearted challenges to Perry Marshal's logic.

Clearly you could use your a little help here so I will give you a hand. It is indeed possible to challenge the logic behind Perry Marshal's essay but you have to use actual logic to do so.

Sometimes you can still find a rational and logical atheist. John Gould over at Quora appears to be such an atheist and he appears to understand logic. If you truly want to understand how to challenge Perry Marshal's argument consider taking the time to understand his challenge.

https://www.quora.com/Can-Gödels-incompleteness-theorem-applied-to-the-universe-prove-the-existence-of-God

What John Gould shows is that Godel's incompleteness theorem can also lead to a second possibility that deity is an undisprovable falsehood.

This juxtaposition of necessary truth versus undisprovable falsehood may be as far as logic can ever take us if the universe is indeed incomplete. It is possible that logic can only show us that it is coherent and logical to believe in God. To actually internalize and live by that logic requires faith.

My own opinion is that this fundamental bifurcation this necessity for faith persists as we climb towards perfection. Perhaps there will always be a need for faith and this fundamental spiritual struggle scales in difficulty matching future growth in intellect and ability.

This persistent need for faith as we grow closer to perfection may also be the answer to your question above.  Why might a being approaching perfection throw that perfection away? Said being may simply have lost faith.

In regards to your questioning the word coherence and how to ultimately determine right or truth. These are very deep topics.

There are several philosophical theories of truth. The most known are the correspondence theory of truth, the pragmatic theories of truth, and the coherence theory of truth since you are interested in coherence I recommend reading up on this third theory.

A brief summary of these theories can be found here.

Truth, Theories of
http://www.encyclopedia.com/education/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/truth-theories

[CoinCube]

what the fuck are you even talking about.

Look, I know you read a lot of bullshit books with a lot of bullshit words

you are stupid.

IMPERFECT ARE YOU FUCKING RETARDED?

You are making my eyes bleed, stop.

These various comments reminded me of a blog I read a few months back. It's a bit too long to post here in its entirety so I will provide a link for those interested in reading more.

Atheism Causes Brain Damage
http://www.scifiwright.com/2015/11/being-a-bright-darkens-the-intellect/#more-14843

[Astargath]

Astargath upthread you challenged Perry Marshals argument on the applicability of applying "Godel's incompleteness theorem to systems beyond mathematics.

His essay can be found here:
The #1 Mathematical Discovery of the 20th Century

Specifically you asked.

"And how do you know Perry Marshal is right? "
and
"How did you determine that what he said is right?"

You then go on to challenge his use of the word coherence and quoted a couple of half hearted challenges to Perry Marshal's logic.

Clearly you could use your a little help here so I will give you a hand. It is indeed possible to challenge the logic behind Perry Marshal's essay but you have to use actual logic to do so.

Sometimes you can still find a rational and logical atheist. John Gould over at Quora appears to be such an atheist and he appears to understand logic. If you truly want to understand how to challenge Perry Marshal's argument consider taking the time to understand his challenge.

https://www.quora.com/Can-Gödels-incompleteness-theorem-applied-to-the-universe-prove-the-existence-of-God

What John Gould shows is that Godel's incompleteness theorem can also lead to a second possibility that deity is an undisprovable falsehood.

This juxtaposition of necessary truth versus undisprovable falsehood may be as far as logic can ever take us if the universe is indeed incomplete. It is possible that logic can only show us that it is coherent and logical to believe in God. To actually internalize and live by that logic requires faith.

My own opinion is that this fundamental bifurcation this necessity for faith persists as we climb towards perfection. Perhaps there will always be a need for faith and this fundamental spiritual struggle scales in difficulty matching future growth in intellect and ability.

This persistent need for faith as we grow closer to perfection may also be the answer to your question above.  Why might a being approaching perfection throw that perfection away? Said being may simply have lost faith.

In regards to your questioning the word coherence and how to ultimately determine right or truth. These are very deep topics.

There are several philosophical theories of truth. The most known are the correspondence theory of truth, the pragmatic theories of truth, and the coherence theory of truth since you are interested in coherence I recommend reading up on this third theory.

A brief summary of these theories can be found here.

Truth, Theories of
http://www.encyclopedia.com/education/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/truth-theories

So you didn't really mention almost anything, you also didn't explain why you believe in anything perry marshall says or why we should trust him or why do you think what he said is true, are you a scientist expert in the incompleteness theory?

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=55839.0;imode

''We jump from the explanation of what the theorems ACTUALLY say, to the way the religious misuse it. They start by saying, if we dishonestly extrapolate from number theory to the entire universe, and then draw a circle around the universe, then by Godel's theorem there must be something outside that circle upon which our system is dependent. They then non-sequitur their god into that place. Even if we allow for the extrapolation from pure number theory (which is where Godel's theorem actually applies) to the whole universe, what the religious folks don't realize is that this approach suffers from an infinite regression problem in the same way as the prime-mover argument. Draw a circle around god and the universe both, and by their own logic, there must be something external to both that they are dependent on.
So, not only do they misuse the theorem, but their logic in doing so is flawed.''

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/goedel-incompleteness/#MysExiGod

It seems to me that you are the one who needs to read more about the incompleteness theorem and what it means. The argument of perry marshall is the same god of gaps, as always.

You are starting to sound like badecker.

[shiki3226]

Spirituality os important for our emotional and mental health. Studies prove that those who meditate or pray in a regular basis are less prone to be stressed out. We are all made not just as physical beings but also spiritual beings with a sense of identity and conciousness of a Creator.

[aesma]

The Christian religion talks about Man having free will. I think nihilism is exactly that : life has no purpose, be free to do whatever you want with it. Seems much more healthy than following all kinds of ridiculous religious rules, but that's just me.

I think even religious people should hope they're wrong, because none of them really manages to follow the rules, so if there is an heaven and a hell, the first one must be empty and the second one overcrowded.

Soren Kierkegaard, a famous 19th century existentialist philosopher, noted quite logically that religious people simply lived better lives, and whether or not there heaven or hell existed or not did not outweigh the cons of not believing in God.

His logic was simple, which he coined "the leap of faith:"
1. Believe in God, die, nothing happens.
2. Don't believe in God, die, nothing happens.

OR

1. Believe in God, die, go to heaven.
2. Don't believe in God, die, bathe in a lake of fire.

I actually wish I could be religious, but sadly, I'm a helpless empiricist. I know too much!

That's a retelling of the much more famous (and 2 centuries older) wager from Pascal : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager

[CoinCube]

So you didn't really mention almost anything, you also didn't explain why you believe in anything perry marshall says or why we should trust him or why do you think what he said is true, are you a scientist expert in the incompleteness theory?

...

It seems to me that you are the one who needs to read more about the incompleteness theorem and what it means. The argument of perry marshall is the same god of gaps, as always.

You are starting to sound like badecker.

Ok let's review some logic 101:

If you want to try and prove that an argument is internally inconsistent you first have to state it in formal language.

In the case of Perry Marshall's argument the talk of circles is non-formal language that he used to simplify and conceptualise his argument for lay readers. Below is his argument in formal language.

Stated in Formal Language:

Gödel’s theorem says: “Any effectively generated theory capable of expressing elementary arithmetic cannot be both consistent and complete. In particular, for any consistent, effectively generated formal theory that proves certain basic arithmetic truths, there is an arithmetical statement that is true, but not provable in the theory.”

The Church-Turing thesis says that a physical system can express elementary arithmetic just as a human can, and that the arithmetic of a Turing Machine (computer) is not provable within the system and is likewise subject to incompleteness.

Any physical system subjected to measurement is capable of expressing elementary arithmetic. (In other words, children can do math by counting their fingers, water flowing into a bucket does integration, and physical systems always give the right answer.)

Therefore the universe is capable of expressing elementary arithmetic and like both mathematics itself and a Turing machine, is incomplete.

Syllogism:

1. All non-trivial computational systems are incomplete

2. The universe is a non-trivial computational system

3. Therefore the universe is incomplete

The rest of his essay starts from the assumption that the universe is finite. If the universe is both finite and incomplete we can then deduce certain basic properties of what lies outside of the universe.

You ask why believe in anything perry marshall says, why we should trust him, and why do you think what he said is true?

Logic is not about belief or trust it is about identifying arguments. Logic tells us that if something is true then something else must be true. You don't need to trust or believe Perry Marshall you just need to follow his logic and then decide if you agree with his assumptions.

As Perry Marshall stated "Incompleteness of the universe isn’t proof that God exists. However, it is proof that in constructing a rational, scientific model of the universe, belief in God is 100% logical."

You have already essentially conceded the same point upthread.

God as a concept is obviously not possible to be proved false

[Astargath]

So you didn't really mention almost anything, you also didn't explain why you believe in anything perry marshall says or why we should trust him or why do you think what he said is true, are you a scientist expert in the incompleteness theory?

...

It seems to me that you are the one who needs to read more about the incompleteness theorem and what it means. The argument of perry marshall is the same god of gaps, as always.

You are starting to sound like badecker.

Ok let's review some logic 101:

If you want to try and prove that an argument is internally inconsistent you first have to state it in formal language.

In the case of Perry Marshall's argument the talk of circles is non-formal language that he used to simplify and conceptualise his argument for lay readers. Below is his argument in formal language.

Stated in Formal Language:

Gödel’s theorem says: “Any effectively generated theory capable of expressing elementary arithmetic cannot be both consistent and complete. In particular, for any consistent, effectively generated formal theory that proves certain basic arithmetic truths, there is an arithmetical statement that is true, but not provable in the theory.”

The Church-Turing thesis says that a physical system can express elementary arithmetic just as a human can, and that the arithmetic of a Turing Machine (computer) is not provable within the system and is likewise subject to incompleteness.

Any physical system subjected to measurement is capable of expressing elementary arithmetic. (In other words, children can do math by counting their fingers, water flowing into a bucket does integration, and physical systems always give the right answer.)

Therefore the universe is capable of expressing elementary arithmetic and like both mathematics itself and a Turing machine, is incomplete.

Syllogism:

1. All non-trivial computational systems are incomplete

2. The universe is a non-trivial computational system

3. Therefore the universe is incomplete

The rest of his essay starts from the assumption that the universe is finite. If the universe is both finite and incomplete we can then deduce certain basic properties of what lies outside of the universe.

You ask why believe in anything perry marshall says, why we should trust him, and why do you think what he said is true?

Logic is not about belief or trust it is about identifying arguments. Logic tells us that if something is true then something else must be true. You don't need to trust or believe Perry Marshall you just need to follow his logic and then decide if you agree with his assumptions.

As Perry Marshall stated "Incompleteness of the universe isn’t proof that God exists. However, it is proof that in constructing a rational, scientific model of the universe, belief in God is 100% logical."

You have already essentially conceded the same point upthread.

God as a concept is obviously not possible to be proved false

You might follow his logic but how do you know what he is saying is right when literally everyone else says the incompleteness theorem cannot be applied to the universe? You are trusting perry marshall which is a random guy on the internet because you think his logic is right.

I already gave you arguments on why his logic is wrong.

''Now please consider what happens when we draw the biggest circle possibly can – around the whole universe. (If there are multiple universes, we’re drawing a circle around all of them too):
•   There has to be something outside that circle. Something which we have to assume but cannot prove

As discussed, GIT doesn't imply the existence of things outside of a system - simply that the system can ask questions about itself that it can't answer.''

I mean we can already stop here because he is already wrong, do you not agree?

''nteresting angle. But, even allowing the step where he claims that GIT implies the existence of something physically outside the universe (of which more below), it breaks down quite trivially where Perry Marshall then inserts a religious position into that, and claims that that is the logical thing to do. No, the logical thing to do at that point would be to recognise that one had reached a point where a consequence of incompleteness had become crucial, and then explore further axioms that one might assume in order to complete the particular gap that one had arrived at. One could use a religious position as an axiom - but what would be the point, scientifically? Axioms should be as simple as possible, and the assumption that there is a complex set of interacting and anthropomorphic forces out there acting on us (as described by most religions in their god concept) would be both way more complex and less specific than would be sensible.
It is worth remembering that the devisings of religions are always in response to a sense of incompleteness (though not the mathematical sense used by Godel) - and so GIT will naturally make people think of religious comparisons, whatever they personally may think of religiousness. But existing religions are all a throwing up of the hands that occurred in response to problems that we as a people have now long since solved... Sun gods and creation stories? We know a bit more about cosmology, geology and biology now. Maybe one day we will demonstrate that we have reached the limit of knowledge in some direction - but we don't seem to be anywhere near that limit in any direction yet!

However, to return to an earlier point as promised, there is a second big philosophical hole in this... GIT asserts that, in any sufficiently interesting system (and "interesting" has quite a low threshold here), there exist statements about that system that you cannot prove - not that things physically exist outside of that system. It says that a system cannot physically describe itself in total completeness, not that things are required to exist outside that system in order to make it look more complete. Using GIT to assert that things must exist outside of the universe is not logical.''

If you like logic so much. Aren't the points mentioned above logical?

Again all the logical flaws and wrong assumptions are stated here:
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?topic=55839.0;imode

You just chose to believe perry marshall for some reason.