Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[DPoS]

Maybe if they shipped on Oct 1st, that 2 week delay has caused me to only mine 47 BTC so far. I could have bought 75 BTC instead of a Jupiter at the time of sale. Really doubt  I will ever ROI in BTC.

they allowed credit card sales back then so that extra purchasing power made gains possible that sitting capital wouldn't have.
shame that is rare or impossible these days.. shows you they all are in a position of power more than the innocent summer of 2013

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[Old_Dominion]

I had some time and decided to come out of lurk mode and create an account.  Please insert speculation regarding my motives as a first time poster here:


Cool.  So I've found the thread particularly crazy the last few weeks and wanted to comment in a dryer and more neutral fashion to see if it is worth continuing to visit this forum at all because this thread is not very helpful and most of the other manufacturer ones are no better.  FWIW, I ordered a Jupiter in July of last year, paid via PayPal, received it in roughly mid-October, and hashed with it until about Mid-December, then sold it. It hashed about 480Gh when I received it, and that went up by about 50Gh more with the .98/.99 firmware. I mined about 20 coins on Eligius and Slush with it, then sold it on eBay when I saw how ridiculous the prices were.  All told, I went in for about of $7k and earned 20BTC, all but 3 of which I converted while BTC was near $1000, and sold the machine for about $25k.  So I got it slightly late, got quite a lot more hash power than I paid for, got lucky with the rise in BTC, very lucky that people were paying way too much for hardware, and have no real complaints.

Of that 20BTC, I spent about 11BTC on a customer appreciation order Neptune.  I figured it was a long shot in terms of mining back the BTC or USD equivalent because I probably wouldn't see it until late June, and because Hashfast and Cointerra would eventually start shipping their own 400+Gh machines, but that it was probably going to be the last generation of equipment that was at all reasonable to run in a home, and that I'd almost certainly make a net USD profit when I eventually sold the hardware.  I suspect that describing it as reasonable to run in a home will be generous here in the US, but I have an available 40A 220V circuit for it, so for me it's fine.

What finally prompted this post is my surprise at how a few short updates from KNC that spawned some speculation have now turned into facts after a couple weeks, with no additional information. I don't see any real justification for the complaints about their NPS, because they didn't ship more power during the declared NPS timeframe.  I've seen speculation that they were mining themselves the whole time, but exactly zero proof of it, so to me this is just noise.  The endless whining about their decision not to sell more add on modules after they suggested they might is also noise. They never promised to, and only said to keep some BTC available if you can, so I'm not sure what anyone hopes to gain by hammering on about it.

The data center/cloud mining thing to me is the most interesting subject because there is actually some data to parse.  They have made some statements that are a bit difficult to parse consistently.  It's not really clear whether say a customer appreciate batch Neptune order gets 3Th from the cloud until it ships, or you just have to pick one or the other.  The speculation here is that they're building enough hashing power with more 28nm hardware to provide the equivalent of all three batches of Neptune orders.  I guess that's possible but it could easily only be enough for one batch, with the cloud hashing power rolling over to batch 2 when batch 1 ships, etc.  Either way, the argument that this will be wildly destructive in profitability for the Neptune hardware seems a bit weird, just based on how preposterously expensive mining hardware is second hand on eBay and whatnot  

If they add 3.6Ph to cover one batch at a time, then at present that would increase network power by 1/7 - but it may well not come online until June, by which time it will almost certainly be a considerably smaller % of the network.  If they build this titanic 10.8Ph cloud, then right now they'd add about 50% to the network.  That would certainly cause one hell of a blip in difficulty now, but it's not coming online now. Realistically, between Hashfast and Cointerra finally shipping, and even BFL (which while already late seems like it will eventually ship the Monarch), there is a lot of hashing power coming online in the first half of this year, so by the time a 10.8Ph cloud came online in June towards the end of Q2, it would be a lot less than 50% of the network.  I cannot be the only one who assumed that difficulty was going to go way up with three other high power ASICs shipping in volume, and in context of that, 3.6-10.8Ph of power from KNC is unexpected, but really no different than what might've happen if, for example, Terrahash had actually shipped something. As for stuff switching off, I don't see it anytime soon, since at the moment even a block erupter is more than covering its electricity cost.

The pictures of the existing racks of miners is interesting.  Most of the content in the thread has assumed that this is some stealth effort, but I don't see anything that would lead us to that conclusion over, for example, the idea that they decided sticking all the hardware for their hosted customers from last fall in those aluminum boxes was pointless and are just running them on those shelves. They can easily screw them into a box and ship it to the owner when the hosting contract is done.  This ties in with the claims that the video that shows all of this is evidence that they've been mining the whole time with a giant farm, and that they've continued to build 28nm equipment.  We don't know what % of those, if any, are hosted customers vs KNC's own mining. We really only have three data points: their original statement that they would limit their own mining, the existence of the miners sitting on shelves in that video, and KNC's statement that they haven't been cranking out a lot more 28nm hardware. Every other statement about this is speculation, much of it contravening the few facts we have, and is just useless noise to wade through on the forum.

So there is a lack of information problem, but that has not stopped the perception from being that they've already been mining with giant amounts of power, or that we've all somehow been screwed as such even though whatever they have done, or are going to do is not a huge % delta in total network hashing power over all the other stuff that is shipping now from other manufacturer's, or is likely to. So am I missing something here, is there some signal in the noise of this forum that I missed?

[DPoS]

  I've seen speculation that they were mining themselves the whole time, but exactly zero proof of it, so to me this is just noise.

glad you took the first step to get off your ass and posted.. now go ahead and try to get proof of what you seek

you will then see why the rest resorted to remark on their conjecture since KNC has avoided many many emails on the subject

[1Neptune]

Could this be a scam?

Ebay item 261397866066 originally listed as auction starting at $1 went to $10,000, then seller cancelled the listing and all bids on the basis that there was an error in the listing.

Ebay item 261399490460 is the exact same items (12 Jupiters) but now listed for $70,000 and the seller says payment ONLY in btc.

$70,000 for seller's claimed 7700GH/s... "640+ g/hs each (at Bitminter)" and payment ONLY in btc.

Pass....

[soy]

Looking at the photo, confrontation on sidewalk in Japan, the MtGox owner doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who will do seppuku.

Something is stinking very badly at MtGox.  On the 7th I e-registered my MtGox account with fincen, today on the 14th MtGox notifies me my account is flagged for AML.

WHOAH! Why would you be motivated to register your Gox account at Fincen? Especially since Fincen declared Miners were NOT money transmitters, and need not register? That literally makes it necessary for Fincen to requisition yet even more account info from Gox, and I'm sure they must LOVE that again.....  it literally forces an AML check flag, they have no choice, you did it by telling Fincen you were a transmitter within Gox; that's the literal function of registering.  I.E.  all fincen registrations are AML investigated, because that's what you actually apply for... approval....  which they need to review all your account information within Gox. So, the AML flag was placed there by you in reality. That just seems totally un-necessary, and dangerous!
Just curious?

Doing my taxes and there's a chart comparing the IRS and fincen (two columns) and then dollar value of accounts that each must be informed about, foreign accounts IRS $50,000, fincen $10,000, then goes on to list different securities and assets (IRS could care less about your store of gold coins).  Also I recall bitcointax.info suggested strongly informing fincen of foreign accounts.

Also, since I don't launder money it shouldn't be a hassle, right? But you are likely right.  One question on the FUBAR report asked me to state the maximum value of the account in the last year.  Dollars I was well under $10k anytime but btc value no, e.g. paid for a Neptune in one fell swoop from Gox.  So, not clear on if they meant max dollars in the account or max dollar value of dollars + btc in the account, I instead checked the 'I do not know.' box.

[Syke]

It's not really clear whether say a customer appreciate batch Neptune order gets 3Th from the cloud until it ships, or you just have to pick one or the other.

They said you can "convert" your order to cloud hashing. In no logical interpretation would "converting" an order mean you get both cloud hashing *and* the device.

[Syke]

It's not really clear whether say a customer appreciate batch Neptune order gets 3Th from the cloud until it ships, or you just have to pick one or the other.

They said you can "convert" your order to cloud hashing. In no logical interpretation would "converting" an order mean you get both cloud hashing *and* the device.

[DPoS]

Also, since I don't launder money it shouldn't be a hassle, right? But you are likely right.  One question on the FUBAR report asked me to state the maximum value of the account in the last year.  Dollars I was well under $10k anytime but btc value no, e.g. paid for a Neptune in one fell swoop from Gox.  So, not clear on if they meant max dollars in the account or max dollar value of dollars + btc in the account, I instead checked the 'I do not know.' box.

I'll say it again..  if they want money they have to put in effort like everyone else...  no compliance without guidance.   Most likely there will be amnesty in a year when they finally get around to it.

[soy]

Looking at the photo, confrontation on sidewalk in Japan, the MtGox owner doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who will do seppuku.

Something is stinking very badly at MtGox.  On the 7th I e-registered my MtGox account with fincen, today on the 14th MtGox notifies me my account is flagged for AML.

WHOAH! Why would you be motivated to register your Gox account at Fincen? Especially since Fincen declared Miners were NOT money transmitters, and need not register? That literally makes it necessary for Fincen to requisition yet even more account info from Gox, and I'm sure they must LOVE that again.....  it literally forces an AML check flag, they have no choice, you did it by telling Fincen you were a transmitter within Gox; that's the literal function of registering.  I.E.  all fincen registrations are AML investigated, because that's what you actually apply for... approval....  which they need to review all your account information within Gox. So, the AML flag was placed there by you in reality. That just seems totally un-necessary, and dangerous!
Just curious?

Doing my taxes and there's a chart comparing the IRS and fincen (two columns) and then dollar value of accounts that each must be informed about, foreign accounts IRS $50,000, fincen $10,000, then goes on to list different securities and assets (IRS could care less about your store of gold coins).  Also I recall bitcointax.info suggested strongly informing fincen of foreign accounts.

Also, since I don't launder money it shouldn't be a hassle, right? But you are likely right.  One question on the FUBAR report asked me to state the maximum value of the account in the last year.  Dollars I was well under $10k anytime but btc value no, e.g. paid for a Neptune in one fell swoop from Gox.  So, not clear on if they meant max dollars in the account or max dollar value of dollars + btc in the account, I instead checked the 'I do not know.' box.

Part of what attracted me to bitcoin was that it was apparently devised by a Japanese and that it had the potential not to devalue as our dollar has been devaluing throughout my lifetime.  That Japanese business men have been known to commit suicide over a personal business failing.  I know that isn't true of all Japanese business owners especially in this era but still.  Now I wonder if MtGox was situated in Japan precisely to capitalize on that reputation but by non-Japanese who may not have a reputation for totally honest dealings.  If that's a trend then the Japanese may be seeing many more establishing businesses in Japan for that reason.  Could you imagine if it were a former Wall Street Broker who had devised Bitcoin?  Would we have put money in as readily?

[soy]

Also, since I don't launder money it shouldn't be a hassle, right? But you are likely right.  One question on the FUBAR report asked me to state the maximum value of the account in the last year.  Dollars I was well under $10k anytime but btc value no, e.g. paid for a Neptune in one fell swoop from Gox.  So, not clear on if they meant max dollars in the account or max dollar value of dollars + btc in the account, I instead checked the 'I do not know.' box.

I'll say it again..  if they want money they have to put in effort like everyone else...  no compliance without guidance.   Most likely there will be amnesty in a year when they finally get around to it.

Where does fincen want money?  E-filing is free.  Are they not tasked with stopping the transmission of drug money to foreign drug lords?  Fincen is not a taxing agency is my understanding.

[DPoS]

Also, since I don't launder money it shouldn't be a hassle, right? But you are likely right.  One question on the FUBAR report asked me to state the maximum value of the account in the last year.  Dollars I was well under $10k anytime but btc value no, e.g. paid for a Neptune in one fell swoop from Gox.  So, not clear on if they meant max dollars in the account or max dollar value of dollars + btc in the account, I instead checked the 'I do not know.' box.

I'll say it again..  if they want money they have to put in effort like everyone else...  no compliance without guidance.   Most likely there will be amnesty in a year when they finally get around to it.

Where does fincen want money?  E-filing is free.  Are they not tasked with stopping the transmission of drug money to foreign drug lords?  Fincen is not a taxing agency is my understanding.

you post so much i picked the wrong quote.. it seemed to be the shortest so that was my logic

[soy]

Also, since I don't launder money it shouldn't be a hassle, right? But you are likely right.  One question on the FUBAR report asked me to state the maximum value of the account in the last year.  Dollars I was well under $10k anytime but btc value no, e.g. paid for a Neptune in one fell swoop from Gox.  So, not clear on if they meant max dollars in the account or max dollar value of dollars + btc in the account, I instead checked the 'I do not know.' box.

I'll say it again..  if they want money they have to put in effort like everyone else...  no compliance without guidance.   Most likely there will be amnesty in a year when they finally get around to it.

Where does fincen want money?  E-filing is free.  Are they not tasked with stopping the transmission of drug money to foreign drug lords?  Fincen is not a taxing agency is my understanding.

you post so much i picked the wrong quote.. it seemed to be the shortest so that was my logic

no problem

[Biodom]

I have analyzed some available data re Boden center:
http://www.thelocal.se/20140213/bitcoin-giant-to-open-new-mega-swedish-hub
and
http://www.gp.se/nyheter/sverige/1.2276893-datorhall-for-bitcoin-byggs-i-boden

Initial parameters: 5500 sq. meters
This is approximately 70x80m
Assuming that shelfs with modules are 90% of space or ~5000 sq meters with 70X70 am dedicated to hashing units.
By looking at the pictures in detail and guesstimating some parameters it looks like that the are at least 35 vertical units with each unit being ~1.0-1.5 wide (has to accept 5 hashing units). Analysis of the video provides more precise estimate of ~40 vertical units in a row because there are about ~20 vertical units before the middle column which is most likely central, hence i am comfortable with ~40 vertical units in each row. Next parameter-distance between rows: by the photograph in thelocal.se it looks like about 1m between rows with hashing units and about 1.5m between backsides (where wires are).  Shelfs are about 1m wide. Therefore, each double sided hashing row is approximately 4.5 meters wide=0.75 (half of service row)+1 (shelf)+1 (narrow row where Kinnemaar is standing)+1 (another shelf)+ 0.75 (another half of service row). Therefore, there are 70/4.5=15-16 such double rows. With 2X40X30=2400 hashing units per each double row, this facility has (or will have) ~36000-38400+/-10-15% hashing units. I assume that each hashing unit is ~0.16th/s (I am not sure about this-please correct if I am wrong here).

If so, then total hashing capacity of this facility is ~5.76-6.14Ph/s or 1920-2048 Neptune-equivalents at 3th/s. Batch zero and batch 1 together were ~2700 Neptunes. If 25% were refunded (pure quesstimate=675), then all current batch zero and batch 1 customers could be covered by this facility, but, interestingly, batch 2 customers would NOT be.

Edit: yes, it is 6 units, not 5 (video clearly shows 6-kudos to davebodger for correction), so 36 in a column, hence total comes down to 7-7.4ph/s or 2300-2460 Neptune equivalents (3th/s)

[ncs0ne]

You could have it easier.
http://thenodepole.com/2014/02/06/knc-miner-to-build-10-mw-datacenter-in-the-node-pole/


10MW = 10.000.000W => 1W per GH/s => 10.000.000 GH/s = 10.000 TH/s = 10 PH/s

3TH/s*3Batches*1200units=10.800 TH/s = 10.8 PH/s.
Those 800TH/s (~260 Neptunes) are whether canceled or they have somewhere else (current location?) ~125*4 boards (28nm) available.

Enough to cover all 3 batches I'd say.
And that's maybe the reason why the hosting is limited to 3TH/s even with the announcement they made 11% improvement on the chip-design.

*edit:
Can remember that there was some info about another 2 locations they will build as soon as this one has been finished.

[RoadStress]

Nice analysis both ones!

[rograz]

then all current batch zero and batch 1 customers could be covered by this facility, but, interestingly, batch 2 customers would NOT be.

Only means they would need to get batch zero out the door to clear out capacity before batch 2 are entitled to hash rate compensation.

[davebodger]

I have analyzed some available data re Boden center:
http://www.thelocal.se/20140213/bitcoin-giant-to-open-new-mega-swedish-hub
and
http://www.gp.se/nyheter/sverige/1.2276893-datorhall-for-bitcoin-byggs-i-boden

Initial parameters: 5500 sq. meters
This is approximately 70x80m
Assuming that shelfs with modules are 90% of space or ~5000 sq meters with 70X70 am dedicated to hashing units.
By looking at the pictures in detail and guesstimating some parameters it looks like that the are at least 35 vertical units with each unit being ~1.0-1.5 wide (has to accept 5 hashing units). Analysis of the video provides more precise estimate of ~40 vertical units in a row because there are about ~20 vertical units before the middle column which is most likely central, hence i am comfortable with ~40 vertical units in each row. Next parameter-distance between rows: by the photograph in thelocal.se it looks like about 1m between rows with hashing units and about 1.5m between backsides (where wires are).  Shelfs are about 1m wide. Therefore, each double sided hashing row is approximately 4.5 meters wide=0.75 (half of service row)+1 (shelf)+1 (narrow row where Kinnemaar is standing)+1 (another shelf)+ 0.75 (another half of service row). Therefore, there are 70/4.5=15-16 such double rows. With 2X40X30=2400 hashing units per each double row, this facility has (or will have) ~36000-38400+/-10-15% hashing units. I assume that each hashing unit is ~0.16th/s (I am not sure about this-please correct if I am wrong here).
If so, then total hashing capacity of this facility is ~5.76-6.14Ph/s or 1920-2048 Neptune-equivalents at 3th/s. Batch zero and batch 1 together were ~2700 Neptunes. If 25% were refunded (pure quesstimate=675), then all current batch zero and batch 1 customers could be covered by this facility, but, interestingly, batch 2 customers would NOT be.

You may want to cross-reference with the prospectus: http://www.business-sweden.se/en/Invest/Industry-Opportunities/ICT/The-Data-Center-Initiative/Available-Data-Center-sites/Existing-buildings/The_node_pole_Boden-_Industrial_Buildings/
I think they are in "Building 1", by looking at the big red doors.
Looking it up on Google maps and measuring the building sizes directly from that gives Building 1 as 130m x 44m.
I suspect the area within that they are using is roughly 120m x 42m, as some of the space is used by internal offices.
I agree the shelf size looks like 1m x 1m and I think the gap between rows in the cold aisles is more like 2m because they are using ambient air cooling which needs wide rows to work well as there does not appear to be any air-handling equipment to supply the cold air to those aisles (other than the heatsink cooling fans themselves sucking it in).
The cooling efficiency of this setup is not great because of all the local air re-circulation but as they are not paying for the cold air I doubt they care too much.
A consideration would be the humidity of the air which at sub-zero could be very dry and data centres of this type would usually have an external air handling/conditioning unit to remove dust and re-humidify the air before injecting it into the cold aisles, to prevent static build-up. Let's hope those shelves are properly earthed.
The prospectus shows that long-term they are not limited to 10MW, and initially they would have "only" had 3MW available.
I think it's fair to guess that the hashing units they are using are based on the November Jupiter ones which are 0.17TH/s each (well, my ones are anyway).
I see 6 hashing units per shelf width (i.e. a fully populated Jupiter controller board) and 6 occupied shelves vertically (they are not currently populating the top shelf), so 36 per veritical column.
I agree with 40 columns deep in the rows they have shown, as you say.
Looking at the video, I think they have only racked 1/4 of the available floor space at the time the video was made, but this judgement is made difficult because they never show a shot across the opposite direction of the shed.

[The Avenger]

You could have it easier.
http://thenodepole.com/2014/02/06/knc-miner-to-build-10-mw-datacenter-in-the-node-pole/


10MW = 10.000.000W => 1W per GH/s => 10.000.000 GH/s = 10.000 TH/s = 10 PH/s

3TH/s*3Batches*1200units=10.800 TH/s = 10.8 PH/s.
Those 800TH/s (~260 Neptunes) are whether canceled or they have somewhere else (current location?) ~125*4 boards (28nm) available.

Enough to cover all 3 batches I'd say.
And that's maybe the reason why the hosting is limited to 3TH/s even with the announcement they made 11% improvement on the chip-design.

I don't think the 10MW will do it, per my calculations a while back:

--snip--
If it were (not IS) 1kw per nov jup, then they could power probably 9500 Nov Jupiters (ISH, factoring in other equipment and losses etc).

9500x650GH = ~ (< engineering symbol for "roughly") 6000TH

KNC have sold 3600x3TH machines, which is 10800TH

Which is why I think they need another building.

They will also want to have some cloud hashing power for themselves/shite-minr to sell, so they might actually need one even larger building or even 2 additional buildings to cover it all.

*edit:
Can remember that there was some info about another 2 locations they will build as soon as this one has been finished.

This?
http://www.globalsecuritymag.com/KnC-Miner-to-build-10-MW,20140206,42773.html

"KnC are also already in discussions with local authorities regarding the establishment of even larger facilities in the local area already later this spring, which would then bring even more business to the local community."

[joeventura]

Ok I am auctioning off my KNC controller board.  Link is here:


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=467568


I'll post this message one more time tomorrow in case this message gets buried.


Have a great weekend all!

Amazing how interest went to ZERO

LOL

[The Avenger]

Amazing how interest went to ZERO

LOL

Why would anybody want a controller for boards no longer being sold to the public?

Also, you shot yourself in the foot with the remark you'd ignore any offers under 1BTC.

Someone who likes bitcoin memorabilia etc might have made a bid if you'd left it open to a bit of free market price discovery