Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[kendog77]

Great news!

@ Avenger, you wasted so much time over the last month spreading and speculating FUD, it was unbelievable funny how much built up anger you have.  

I agree that the 20nm tapeout is great news for Knc, but they aren't out of the woods yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape-out

First tapeout is rarely the end of work for the design team. Most chips will go through a set of spins in which fixes are implemented after testing the first article. Many different factors can cause a spin, including:
- The taped-out design fails final checks at the foundry due to problems manufacturing the design itself.
- The design is successfully fabricated, but the first article fails functionality tests.

Their execution was nearly flawless with 28nm chips, so the next month will show if lightning can strike twice with their 20nm product.

[1715301459]

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[btcusr]

great. first batch shipping is likely to start at least by the end of May.
second batch by the end of June.

[WastedLTC]

I got my BTC refund today for 3 Neptunes (43.569). exchange rate used was at $700 by the time I got it, rate was down to $660.  Took 8 days to complete the transaction and BTC went on some wild swings,  had no idea where it would be and they gave me no information on the exchange rate other than they will use BitStamp price at the time of transaction.  Considering that I spent under that amount to purchase 4 Neptunes, made out pretty well.    When it arrives every mBit it makes will be profit...  good to hear they taped out...  Wasn't really looking forward to re-wiring my house to install 4.

good times.

[jelin1984]

Knc is still knc

Best company out there

[Bitconorama]

Here's some calculations someone put together over at KnC's official forums. I am not heralding these figures as given facts, but in spite of the silly speculative doom and gloom that has swept over this thread, there still might be reason for optimism among those with outstanding Neptune orders.

With the new "tape out" information that KNC has provided, it gives everyone a clearer view of what we can expect. Below is an updated idea on what I think we can expect from the Neptune.

Hash rate: 4,875GH/s
Power: 2,237W (A couple 1,200W PSUs will probably do the trick. We'll need either a 220V line or two circuits at 110v. DON'T BUY THE PSUs YET! I have no idea if my projections are even close to correct in the end!)

Here's how I figured out the above numbers.

Jupiter has 192 cores. (http://forum.kncminer.com/forum/rese...than-3000-gh-s)
Jupiter needs at least 850W.
Jupiter hashes at 650GH/s for the November batch.

Neptune has 1440 cores. (https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-78)
Jupiter has a 40% power reduction per core than that of Jupiter.

Using these quick facts I gathered, we can figure out Neptune's potential specs.

(Jupiter's hash / Jupiter's cores) * Neptune's cores = Neptune's GH/s
(650/192) * 1440 = 4875 GH/s

((Jupiter's hash / Jupiter's power) * Neptune's hash) - 40% reduction in power per core
((650/850) * 4875) - 40% = 2237 W


Beautiful, yes? Well I think you're really going to like this next bit. It seems like people were scared for nothing and might feel like crap now that they refunded their orders, especially because they could have sold their place in line on eBay and made ~$25,000 from it. Anyway, here goes.

Using my formulas from my thread at: http://forum.kncminer.com/forum/rese...ity-assessment
We can see the following.

7.6PH/s - KNC DC (More hash than both Neptune batches combined)
5.85PH/s - First batch Neptunes
5.85PH/s - Second batch Neptunes

Notice that the KNC DC is now going to be putting out 4.1PH/s less than both Neptune batches combined. (11.7PH/s for both Neptune batches combined)

~19.3PH/s - Total KNC hash being added by (presumably) the end of Q2.
~28PH/s - Total current BTC network hash (http://bitcoincharts.com/bitcoin/)

(19.3 / 28) * 100 = ~69% (Percent of the current hash rate)

3,815,723,799 (Current difficulty) + 69% (Amount of hash being added) = 2,632,849,421 (Difficulty increase)

Now for the good part.

Formula:
Let A = PH/s being added to the network

(A / 28) * 100 = B% (Percent of new hash being added)
3,815,723,799 + B% = C (Projected difficulty)

April after first batch Neptunes come online without DC: 4,617,025,797 (A = 5.85PH/s - ~15.93 BTC per 30 days)
April after first batch Neptunes come online with DC: 5,647,271,223 (A = 13.45PH/s - ~13.023 BTC per 30 days)

May after second batch Neptunes come online without DC: 5,418,327,795 (A = 11.7PH/s- ~13.575 BTC per 30 days)
May after second batch Neptunes come online with DC: 6,448,573,220 (A = 19.3PH/s- ~11.406 BTC per 30 days)

I used the profit calculator at: http://www.bitcoinx.com/profit/

Also, remember that I have no way of accounting for how much difficulty increase will happen this month accurately and so I based things off of the current difficulty. We also don't know anything in this post to be completely true or when the Neptunes will be shipping, so this whole post might be completely wrong. In other words, don't go off of what I say alone. Do your homework and see if you find this to be accurate enough for you.

~ReworkedScripts @ KnC forum

That's nearly 5Th at under 2500 watts. Still speculation given that other factors have remained the same; ie. same number of chips per unit, etc.

[ThePeshMod]

That's nearly 5Th at under 2500 watts. Still speculation given that other factors have remained the same; ie. same number of chips per unit, etc.

A lot of calculations done pretty fast by the community. I don't think, however, Jupiter and Neptune can be compared so directly - we have no idea at what clock speeds the Neptune chips will run. Though I am almost certain it will not be the same clock as the Jupiters, so in essence we can't compare core-for-core performance.

[Bitconorama]

A lot of calculations done pretty fast. I don't think Jupiter and Neptune can be compared so directly - we have no idea at what clock speeds the Neptune chips will run. I am, however, almost certain it will not be the same clock as the Jupiters, so in essence we can't compare core-for-core performance.

Absolutely. There are a lot of things we STILL do not know. Instead of this being an attempt to show Neptune necessarily will hash at a theoretical 5TH, it's more meant as a counter to all the pseudo facts being thrown out in this clusterfuck of an over dramatic thread citing Neptune couldn't possibly ever ROI.

As others have said, we're not out of the woods yet.

[soy]

Great news!

@ Avenger, you wasted so much time over the last month spreading and speculating FUD, it was unbelievable funny how much built up anger you have.  

I agree that the 20nm tapeout is great news for Knc, but they aren't out of the woods yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape-out

First tapeout is rarely the end of work for the design team. Most chips will go through a set of spins in which fixes are implemented after testing the first article. Many different factors can cause a spin, including:
- The taped-out design fails final checks at the foundry due to problems manufacturing the design itself.
- The design is successfully fabricated, but the first article fails functionality tests.

Their execution was nearly flawless with 28nm chips, so the next month will show if lightning can strike twice with their 20nm product.

A small, lean, company not concerned with drawing out work so as to lengthen the duration of a project and associated paychecks, an aspect of manufacturing that's become deep seated and entrenched since so much manufacturing was exported, may show that it isn't as if lightening striking twice but competence.  Working competently in today's environment can put one on the unemployment line.

[Pt0x]

Knc is still knc

Best company out there

 

[sbfree]

Great news!

@ Avenger, you wasted so much time over the last month spreading and speculating FUD, it was unbelievable funny how much built up anger you have.  

I agree that the 20nm tapeout is great news for Knc, but they aren't out of the woods yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape-out

First tapeout is rarely the end of work for the design team. Most chips will go through a set of spins in which fixes are implemented after testing the first article. Many different factors can cause a spin, including:
- The taped-out design fails final checks at the foundry due to problems manufacturing the design itself.
- The design is successfully fabricated, but the first article fails functionality tests.

Their execution was nearly flawless with 28nm chips, so the next month will show if lightning can strike twice with their 20nm product.

kendog, being that tapeout was last month, and they are now announcing it, makes me believe it was successful or they would not have said a word until they had it right.....or maybe 'PLAN B' announcement was sign that it didn't go well?
I want to believe that KNC can do it again, time is getting closer.

[sbfree]

A lot of calculations done pretty fast. I don't think Jupiter and Neptune can be compared so directly - we have no idea at what clock speeds the Neptune chips will run. I am, however, almost certain it will not be the same clock as the Jupiters, so in essence we can't compare core-for-core performance.

Absolutely. There are a lot of things we STILL do not know. Instead of this being an attempt to show Neptune necessarily will hash at a theoretical 5TH, it's more meant as a counter to all the pseudo facts being thrown out in this clusterfuck of an over dramatic thread citing Neptune couldn't possibly ever ROI.

As others have said, we're not out of the woods yet.

hey bitcoinorama, glad to see you back....

btw, are you back in the U.K.? I thought I read somewhere that someone in I believe London is selling burgers and taking Dogecoin, so in case you still have that small token of appreciation you might now have a place to eat with Dogecoin. Funny, one of the guys I work with tries to buy me lunch everyone once in while, as long as I pay him back in Dogecoin.

And speaking of Alt. coins, any word if KNC will ever pursue a scrypt miner?

[paranoidx]

I'm confused...

I'm pretty sure Bitcoinorama and Bitconorama are not the same person..

Also, when was the original tapeout for the chips used in the Jupiter??  It was sometime in July if I remember correctly.. so we are looking at another 3-4 months if everything goes right?

[The Avenger]

@ Avenger, you wasted so much time over the last month spreading and speculating FUD, it was unbelievable funny how much built up anger you have.  

I said they would have to tape out this month, in order to deliver in Q2. As in 4 days ago:

I am aware of the bullshit they post on their website, but I said DETAILS. If they are so confident on batch 2 in Q2, they should surely be able to provide concrete, technical details about the product now.

Remember >
64 days fab + "will leave about one month after the first batch" and still to deliver in Q2 means they have to tape out before 2nd April. So they have about 32 days left to complete one of the first 20nm projects in the world and ensure they get it right the first time. This after announcing only 6 weeks ago they were only in preliminary design stages.

How is that FUD?

[kendog77]

What is the minimum amount of time it will take to go from taping out a chip to delivering a product to customers?

How long did it take Knc to do that for Jupiters?

[sbfree]

I'm confused...

I'm pretty sure Bitcoinorama and Bitconorama are not the same person..

Also, when was the original tapeout for the chips used in the Jupiter??  It was sometime in July if I remember correctly.. so we are looking at another 3-4 months if everything goes right?

aw man, he got me there....

[NetTime]

It's going to be tight.  But at least they have broken the silence.  All we can do is hope they bust ass and finish the project so the Neptunes ship ASAP.

[elasticband]

why has bitcoinorama disappeared.  he's probably trying to tell us, beware KNC has gone mad  

There is no correlation between the two. The second part is *your* reading of the situation, which I'd say isn't too far away from the truth. KNC are going round telling everyone there is no reason they can't be as big as facebook - you know there is something wrong at in their arctic circles - aka their brains - when they are making those gandiose statements  

Bitcoinorama abandoned this forum almost a month ago to the day. It's easy to see where his allegence lies. He's down with the greed and megalomania and thinks knc will become billionaires and he is hoping that will trickle down to him. He doesn't give a toss about people on here, he's always been a shill with his eye solely on his own *image* and *self-interests*.

He obviously knew all about KNC's DC plans - just look at that engadget video from January. He was talking about the eventual bitcoin "winner" being the ones with access to the cheapest electricity etc.

Probably the only time he'll come back to this forum is when things start coming unstuck for KNC and they get to the paranoid, "everyone is against us" stage of delusion and they fire him. And he'll come on here claiming he quit, (as lies and spin are his forte) and he'll try to win everyone back on his side.

The guy abandoned this forum a month ago because he was well aware KNC were about to break every one of their promises and commitments to their customers who made them. And he didn't have enough moral character to stay on the forum and face everyone. Cowardly.

That's what his silence is telling you. "beware KNC has gone mad" is your own correct interpretation of the situation.

FUD

30 days left to tape out Neptune

FUD

Seriously, why in the world would KNC want their own wallet program? Is this another move to get their greedy little hands onto even more BTC?

Yes

It's already answered in their newsletter and I mentioned it a few weeks ago.

"we will simply fill your wallets directly and you won’t have to worry about anything else"

Hell, they don't actually need any machines running - they can simply work out how much you are due for 3TH at difficulty in July (e.g. 0.0002BTC/day) and pay it to your wallet directly from their stash! One bitcoin will go a long way in July 2014!

If the datacentre video is anything to go by, they are mining the sh!t out of the network and going to use those coins to pay people directly to their "knc wallet", you won't get a choice which pool your hash power mines etc.

So let's say you're forced 6 month neptune cloud hashing contract earns you 6 bitcoin. They mined it already! You'll be getting coins they've mined since October last year.

So pretty much every penny they take will be pure profit and I assume this will be used to build a 20nm product sometime in 2014/2015. They've gambled all the Neptune customers money on datacentre(s), this is the plan to make that money back before anyone realises.

The Dukes of Moral Hazard

FUD & probably some slander

You could have it easier.
http://thenodepole.com/2014/02/06/knc-miner-to-build-10-mw-datacenter-in-the-node-pole/


10MW = 10.000.000W => 1W per GH/s => 10.000.000 GH/s = 10.000 TH/s = 10 PH/s

3TH/s*3Batches*1200units=10.800 TH/s = 10.8 PH/s.
Those 800TH/s (~260 Neptunes) are whether canceled or they have somewhere else (current location?) ~125*4 boards (28nm) available.

Enough to cover all 3 batches I'd say.
And that's maybe the reason why the hosting is limited to 3TH/s even with the announcement they made 11% improvement on the chip-design.

I don't think the 10MW will do it, per my calculations a while back:

--snip--
If it were (not IS) 1kw per nov jup, then they could power probably 9500 Nov Jupiters (ISH, factoring in other equipment and losses etc).

9500x650GH = ~ (< engineering symbol for "roughly") 6000TH

KNC have sold 3600x3TH machines, which is 10800TH

Which is why I think they need another building.

They will also want to have some cloud hashing power for themselves/shite-minr to sell, so they might actually need one even larger building or even 2 additional buildings to cover it all.

*edit:
Can remember that there was some info about another 2 locations they will build as soon as this one has been finished.

This?
http://www.globalsecuritymag.com/KnC-Miner-to-build-10-MW,20140206,42773.html

"KnC are also already in discussions with local authorities regarding the establishment of even larger facilities in the local area already later this spring, which would then bring even more business to the local community."

FUD

2) seemed to devolve from providing those objections and rational thoughts and insisted on using that voice for mud flinging and conspiracy theories -the worst of it in the last few weeks

My recent comments are no more "mud flinging and conspiracy theories" than anything I've ever said previously. People just find them a little hard to swallow, until they come true  

Hardly scientific proof, but

And to think at one point I suspected you were a crazy conspiracy theorists. Tuens out you were right on.

What do you have a problem with, specifically, with what I've said lately?

I speculated from a bin full of arctic cooler boxes in that video I posted that the boards in the datacentre are new and additional hashing power, not just being moved from someplace else. On a scale of 1-10, I'd say that assessement is an 8 or 9 in terms of being correct.

My read on that cloud hashing guy selling his jupiters being a sign of something happening in the cloud hashing world was correct.

And my insisting on knc only providing 3TH cloud hashing for 6 months is based on a statement made by their company director. I shoot down anyone who suggests it might be 5 or 6TH for two reasons:
1. It's already been stated by knc employee that their priority with neptune is power consumption, not time to delivery or maximising hashrate. That is totally consistent that same knc employee's statement that the future of mining is based on lowest power consumption costs. And that all fits in with their datacentre being in a place with the cheapest electricity in Europe.
2. Though they promised to over-deliver etc, knc were quite forceful insisting in October that if you paid for 400GH, then that was all you were entitled to. No debate, end of story. As Sam's statement to coindesk classified it as the "latest model, the 3TH/s Neptune miner" and "3. Convert to 3TH of hosting performance for a period". That seems quite assured it's not 6TH. And as I said in my last post, knc did the absolute bare minimum to meet their obligations to customers and I see no reason why they would suddenly change now. What a company has done in the past (i.e. what they get away with) is a very good indicator of what they will do again in the future.

Sure I'm flippant sometimes, it's fun.

Neptune customers t-shirt UPDATE:

FRONT: I gave KNC $13,000 for a Neptune

BACK: And all I got was this lousy 3TH cloud hashing contract for 6 months

So why do those photos of Josh and Sam bug you? I mean, if knc are the virtuous company they claim to be, they could surely tell conference organisers they will not share a stage with BFL/Josh, if they truly felt that BFL were doing damage to bitcoin and taking advantage of people with their sales and delivery dates etc. And that knc are playing everything above board and legit and setting an example of how to do things right and don't want to be associated with people who might not be.

But they aren't, they know it and they are happy to sit next to Josh. Actions speak louder than words.

All I'll add is that in regard to their, "We'll never forget the help of our first customers" attitude, I don't feel as detested by their actions as you as I never actually believed that in the first place. I never felt entitled to benefits nor anticipated preferential treatment despite the persona they wished to convey, because at the end of the day, KnC's primary goal (or any business for that matter) does not include you or me as the beneficiaries. Any demonstrated values any company shows is essentially a facade, a tool to further that main objective -but still one I can't hold against them.

I guess I'm naive. I wasn't expecting preferential treatment. But for $7k+ I was expecting to be informed and treated well enough. If you buy a $200 psu off a company, they'll usually be very apologetic if they can't deliver on time and probably bombard you with updates and apologies etc. And if they then shipped you a duff one, they'd be even more apologetic and probably send you a replacement for free. Now I'm not expecting that, but knc should really have done 1000% better to the people they shipped their faulty die0 rigs to. Instead, they were like "Meh, go away". It all went downhill after that. I see no reason to give them any benefit of the doubt, they have screwed the people who gave them the chance to exist. It's akin to killing your own mother, for money. Pretty disgusting and greedy. I don't accept the argument that companies can lie through their teeth and that is acceptable. It's not. It's only a reflection of the beliefs and attitudes of the people who own the company and make the decisions.

Oh and some more FUD.

1000 refunded orders, that's gonna hurt.

Not if you are mining with equipment purchased with customers money, selling the btc and giving people refunds with the mining profits.

I certainly didn't see any comment in the newsletter about the video we've all seen with 1000 boards hashing in their new datacentre.

true enough, reckon they'll sell 'em?

I don't think they care too much about Neptune in 2014.

They will force everybody onto a 6 month cloud hashing contract. I mean, if they announce you can have 6 months cloud from June or wait for Neptune, that is going to be delayed until at least November, who in their right mind would wait?

Eventually they'll make Neptune, to pad out their arctic empire, as it will be lower power than the jupiter boards. But probably we won't see it until 2015.

In the meantime, we'll see just how much truth lies behind their February 2014 statement of "As we are getting closer to the launch date of Neptune", as time progresses.

Oh and some more major FUD

Oh how much time you wasted, looking back on your post history over the last two months it is all spreading fear uncertainty and doubt.

[mvalley]

Got my refund for my Neptune today. I think it's very clear that they will give cloud hashing out to test their cloud hashing platform and then sometime in the distant future give the actual physical netpune (to fulfill their physical delivery obligation).


I'm just buying Ants now.

[The Avenger]

30 days left to tape out Neptune

FUD

FACT not FUD. It's an absolute fact, based on how long it takes to fab chips. To deliver in Q2, they had to tape out in March.


I'm not even going to go over the rest. You have a few things in there regarding the datacentre, not Neptune, and the datacentre situation has not changed.

I'll add I was *not* the one making statements of fact knc would never deliver a physical 20nm product and that they never planned to make one in the first place. Nothing to do with me.

I *was* the person says their datacentre broke all their promises to customers and is going to make neptunes worthless. It still is. Anyone who got a refund and bought about 15-20 BTC did about as well as will be possible out of the deal. If antminers are shipping in 3 days, they are still a much better choice for your money than waiting for neptune.

And before you cream you pants any further:

First tapeout is rarely the end of work for the design team. Most chips will go through a set of spins in which fixes are implemented after testing the first article. Many different factors can cause a spin, including:

    The taped-out design fails final checks at the foundry due to problems manufacturing the design itself.
    The design is successfully fabricated, but the first article fails functionality tests.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape-out
(Edit: Whoops, didn't notice kendog already posted this a few back. Sorry dude.)

The fact they have announced they taped out does not mean all that much in itself, other than they like boasting and are hoping to scare their competition. Other than it's their second official annoucement about Neptune in almost 4 months. Now that the math is out of the way, they have to start dealing with the real-world problems of sourcing components, manufacturing processes, errors, delays etc. There is a difference between FUD and being realistic.

[elasticband]

30 days left to tape out Neptune

FUD

FACT not FUD. It's an absolute fact, based on how long it takes to fab chips. To deliver in Q2, they had to tape out in March.

Everyone knew the date and deadline, you just pointed it out along with all your other conspiracies in attempt to spread FUD, you sir are a classic FUDster and that is a fact. A review of your last months post history shows that.


edit, by the way i didn't even read ANY of the posts i quoted of yours, i just knew each of them would contain some FUD as that is waht you do.