Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[Biodom]

I feel like many here are simply jelly of @jbreher and his whale-ness.
I am always eager to hear a person with a different (chain) point of view.

[JayJuanGee]

I feel like many here are simply jelly of @jbreher and his whale-ness.
I am always eager to hear a person with a different (chain) point of view.

Of course.  Coddle the

BIG

B
L
O
C
K
E
R


You big blocker sympathizer.   

[Biodom]

like, who gives a f--k..it is not 2017 anymore...that is done..and what's done is done.
there are bigger 'enemies' or rather 'competitors' arriving
this bolshevik/menshevik nonsense is way passé.

EDIT: OK, maybe the above comparison is exaggerated. How about big-endian vs little-endian?

[nullius]

like, who gives a f--k..it is not 2017 anymore...that is done..and what's done is done.
there are bigger 'enemies' or rather 'competitors' arriving
this bolshevik/menshevik nonsense is way passé.

That last is a candidate for some kind of a bad metaphor prize.  Wrong, wrong, wrong on so many levels.  Bitcoin is not an international conspiracy to enslave the world under the false rubric of “liberating” it, steal everybody’s property, and mass-murder as many people as practicable; and for my part, I am not a goddamn Communist.

The rest is myopic and foolish.

Fork attacks remain one of the biggest long-term existential threats to Bitcoin.  That is one of the four major risks that I would disclose in a Bitcoin prospectus, together with creeping regulatory and “KYC” attacks, miner centralization, and potential big-bank manipulation of the market.

The big blockers did huge damage—financially (in case for but the worst, you didn’t notice November 2018?), technologically (throwing monkey wrenches into Bitcoin development), and against adoption.  They should begone and stay gone—dump their remaining bitcoins for forked shitcoins, and fork the fuck off to hell.  I am so very much looking forward to a smooth Segwit v1 upgrade (Schnorr, MuSig, etc.) without the type of bullshit undermining that holds Bitcoin back.

The bitcoin.COM domain is still owned by a sleazy scammer who is abusing it to mislead newbies into fake Bitcoin.

Faketoshi.

I could continue, but it would be superfluous...

Likely, I presuming that many of us are also familiar with that expression about consistency and hobgoblins.  

Most people forget the very important qualifier in that quote.  Emerson speaks of “a foolish consistency”, viz., refusing for mere consistency’s sake to consider that one may have ever been wrong about anything whatsoever.  There is nothing glorious about being consistently stupid.

Some of us would argue that Emerson was generally full of it; but he was not wrong there!

(FWIW, in some clusterfork of a Reputation thread, I mentioned that I would offer jbreher a (virtual) beer if he ever consistently repudiated his beloved forked shitcoins and Faketoshi-apologia, and admitted that he was wrong about Segwit, Core, etc.  The offer stands.)

[JayJuanGee]

like, who gives a f--k..it is not 2017 anymore...that is done..and what's done is done.
there are bigger 'enemies' or rather 'competitors' arriving
this bolshevik/menshevik nonsense is way passé.

Some people do give fucks, and do not believe these matters to be done based on actual current happenings...

Ok.  Go sing kubaya with jbreher then if you think that there is nothing to learn from either his previous position or his ongoing insistence on whining about various BIG blocker talking points, bitcoin bashing and spreading misleading information.

How can you, Biodom, appreciate which part(s) of the attack vector(s) is (are) the important one(s)?

Jbreher keeps defending various BIG blocker, bcash and other nonsense talking points.  He also believes that some of those shitcoins are going to have a reckoning when BTC's blocks supposedly get jammed in our upcoming blockalypse or whatever he is currently calling it.

Sure, it is likely that you and I are not going to get mislead by the various bullshit BIG blocker talking points (well, maybe I should not speak for you because you seem somewhat receptive to sing kumbaya), but there are a variety of shitcoin advocates who are still misleading normies into their shitcoins by suggesting: 1) bitcoin is broken, 2) bitcoin is grandpa coin, 3) bitcoin is too high priced (unit value), 4) their shitcoin has more pumpamentals than BTC 5) and various other similar nonsense shitcoin talking points. 

Fair enough that I don't give too many shits if some gullible folks get sucked into that ongoing nonsense because they want to get rich quicker than reasonable and they are stupid, but the shitcoin advocates also suck in a lot of regular and innocent people too.. and sometimes they even turn people off of bitcoin because they are misleading them about their various shitcoins, and then when they get burned with shitcoin A, B and/or C, they do not appreciate the difference between bitcoin and those various other shitcoins for years and years later (if ever).

I am not going to just lie down and listen to shitcoin advocates spout out various nonsense (whether direct or indirect) without at least making some attempt to clarify the record or to point out that they are appealing to naive aspects of all of us including our desires to short cut the process of getting rich....

Many of us, if we can get rich quicker, many of us would take those kinds of opportunities, but many of us have also learned through our years participating in this space that there are a lot of snake oil salesmen out there who are trying to deceive with subtle distinctions that people do not understand, and good for you that you are so blind as to not believe that jbreher is one of those snake oil salesmen because he also has a relatively long history in bitcoin... or whatever other misleading aspect that you are getting sucked in by, Biodom. 

I have not heard jbreher say that he is giving up on those various bcashes, his desires to bash on bitcoin for small blocks or segwit and/or his various ongoing sympathies for other projects to pump instead of bitcoin, and his kind of hope to show us all that he told us so about the blockalypse.. blah blah blah.  He is ongoingly spouting out such nonsense when he gets such opportunities (which is not always so frequently since bitcoin does tend to outperform any of the shitcoins, but jbreher can still frequently find an angle to pump nonsense), including some of his posts from today. 

Not only does Jbreher frequently fail/refuse to bash misleading  shitcoin talking points, many times he is spouting out such shitcoin talking points when he gets the chance.. and frequently with way too much passion for the extremes of some of the nonsense trying to make the nonsense seem to be reasonable (which is a form of deception and misleading), way too much ongoing spin of information.  Innocent people get mislead by these deceptive matters.  You don't think so, Biodom?

Sure we cannot save everyone from those kinds of misleading and deceptive talking points, but we should be willing to appreciate ongoing behaviors of some of our members to bash bitcoin, pumping bullshit projects with bullshit and misleading spin points... .. .   

[jojo69]

[Toxic2040]

[nullius]

IT’s so hard because software sucks.



Yes, that’s original.  I just realized how generally applicable it is.

[Toxic2040]

1h


#dyor
4h

#stronghands

[Biodom]

The levels of unneeded zealotry here are starting to trigger my usually not very sensitive bs sensor.
I can be in bitcoin without giving a second thought to bitcoin cash and it's derivative.

It would be sad if the discussion here was to keep fighting the old and forgotten battles again and again when, as I said, there are more formidable opponents in form of strengthening POS (an/or upcoming POS) and/or de-fi plus all-incorporating (Polkadot) tokens in front of us.
They will try to make us a "shard". Right now, $1 bil btc is already "wrapped" (WBTC).
This is what we will be/should be "fighting" (technologically), I believe, instead of dilly-dallying about "big blockers".

[JayJuanGee]

like, who gives a f--k..it is not 2017 anymore...that is done..and what's done is done.
there are bigger 'enemies' or rather 'competitors' arriving
this bolshevik/menshevik nonsense is way passé.

That last is a candidate for some kind of a bad metaphor prize.  Wrong, wrong, wrong on so many levels.  Bitcoin is not an international conspiracy to enslave the world under the false rubric of “liberating” it, steal everybody’s property, and mass-murder as many people as practicable; and for my part, I am not a goddamn Communist.

The rest is myopic and foolish.

Fork attacks remain one of the biggest long-term existential threats to Bitcoin.  That is one of the four major risks that I would disclose in a Bitcoin prospectus, together with creeping regulatory and “KYC” attacks, miner centralization, and potential big-bank manipulation of the market.

The big blockers did huge damage—financially (in case for but the worst, you didn’t notice November 2018?), technologically (throwing monkey wrenches into Bitcoin development), and against adoption.  They should begone and stay gone—dump their remaining bitcoins for forked shitcoins, and fork the fuck off to hell.  I am so very much looking forward to a smooth Segwit v1 upgrade (Schnorr, MuSig, etc.) without the type of bullshit undermining that holds Bitcoin back.

The bitcoin.COM domain is still owned by a sleazy scammer who is abusing it to mislead newbies into fake Bitcoin.

Faketoshi.

I could continue, but it would be superfluous...

Hey... that's largely what I was trying to say (you took the words right out of my mouth - you robber.)... But, of course, you said it first... and better than me.    #nohomo

Likely, I presuming that many of us are also familiar with that expression about consistency and hobgoblins.  

Most people forget the very important qualifier in that quote.  Emerson speaks of “a foolish consistency”, viz., refusing for mere consistency’s sake to consider that one may have ever been wrong about anything whatsoever.  There is nothing glorious about being consistently stupid.

Some of us would argue that Emerson was generally full of it; but he was not wrong there!

I did look up the quote before I referred to it in my post, so I did recall at the time of my post that Emerson was referring to "foolish consistency" rather than mere consistency on its own.. but purposefully, I just decided to refer to the whole quote in a more vague and amorphous kind of way....

By the way, I do expect that a lot of us may have started out our bitcoin journey with mistakes and even getting drug into some levels of shitcoin investment and sympathies for shitcoins and we also may look back and recognize that we made a lot of mistakes in the way that we invested into bitcoin, whether that was too little of an investment at earlier points of time, selling too many BTC too soon or just failing to take enough safeguarding precautions regarding purchasing, storing or moving our coins.

So, sure in that sense, I would not expect any kind of exact consistencies with each us HODLers because hopefully we are learning along the way in terms of how to be a "better" bitcoiner... or at least, better in terms of our own goals and aspirations, and hopefully we are NOT continuing to make some of the more detrimental of our earlier mistakes - also, sometimes, it could take a while to convert our own lil selfies over to another way of thinking about bitcoin and/or shitcoins and/or how traditional assets and currencies fit into our whole approach to bitcoin and into our investment lives, too (whether we are expecting progeny, or otherwise).

(FWIW, in some clusterfork of a Reputation thread, I mentioned that I would offer jbreher a (virtual) beer if he ever consistently repudiated his beloved forked shitcoins and Faketoshi-apologia, and admitted that he was wrong about Segwit, Core, etc.  The offer stands.)

Does NOT seem very likely that jbreher would engage in any kind of behavior that would allow him to take you up on your beer offer, even though I do hate to lose hope for some people, but sometimes, we just get a sense that some people have gone too far down a path that they cannot feel comfortable coming off of such path... whether they are actually just invested in some of the ideology or what are the exact factors that are motivating NON-movement off of that path, I cannot fully know, especially when seemingly illogical positions remain in place for so many years in spite of what some of us in the "shitcoin minimalist" camp (I think I got "shitcoin minimalist" from Tone Vays) perceive to be decently convincing evidence that should help the shitcoiners (or big blockers, or bitcoin naysayers) to change their seemingly nonsensical position(s)... but hey, everyone has rights to their (sic) own perspective based upon giving the weight to the factors that they(sic) deem to be MOAR important, or most important... whatever the case may be.

Right now, $1 bil btc is already "wrapped" (WBTC).

There is no such thing as WBTC....

I mean that WBTC is not BTC...  So don't get fooled by what they are calling it.  It is a fucking token.  

So, who fucking cares if the WBTC managers call their token a BTC variant - because BTC, it is not.

Just for clarification, this is how it works.

You give WBTC managers your BTC (if you are that fucking stupid) and they keep your BTC while giving you a voucher.  What the fuck kind of threat is that, exactly?

You have been reading too many sharding papers, Biodom.  

[Biodom]

Right now, $1 bil btc is already "wrapped" (WBTC).

There is no such thing as WBTC....

I mean that WBTC is not BTC...  So don't get fooled by what they are calling it.  It is a fucking token.  

So, who fucking cares if the WBTC managers call their token a BTC variant - because BTC, it is not.

Just for clarification, this is how it works.

You give WBTC managers your BTC (if you are that fucking stupid) and they keep your BTC while giving you a voucher.  What the fuck kind of threat is that, exactly?

You have been reading too many sharding papers, Biodom.  

right...and what would happen if instead of $1bil some "btc holding fools" will give WBTC managers $20bil or more?
I think that you two are somewhat ignorant of the threat, perhaps?

[nullius]

I just noticed how this started because I am a bit preoccupied here, and I don’t parse cutesy-wootsy abuse of language—WTF, the obsequious fawning over money, spineless as a jellyfish...

I feel like many here are simply jelly of @jbreher and his whale-ness.
I am always eager to hear a person with a different (chain) point of view.

Just like the only possible reason why people could presume to criticize the stock market SCAM is jealousy of Warren Buffet’s “whale-ness”.  Surely indeed, he must make your allegedly rich idol jbreher look like plankton.  All hail Buffet!

Such logic is a plutocrat’s dream.

N.b. that I have no idea how much money jbreher has, your post is the first allegation that I have seen of him being a “whale”—and I couldn’t care less.

The levels of unneeded zealotry here are starting to trigger my usually not very sensitive bs sensor.
I can be in bitcoin without giving a second thought to bitcoin cash and it's derivative.

If it looks like a bcasher, and spins like a bcasher...  ok, I should probably stop wasting my time here.

(No, Jay, I myself don’t “sing kumbaya”.)

Right now, $1 bil btc is already "wrapped" (WBTC).

There is no such thing as WBTC....

I mean that WBTC is not BTC...  So don't get fooled by what they are calling it.  It is a fucking token.  

So, who fucking cares if the WBTC managers call their token a BTC variant - because BTC, it is not.

Just for clarification, this is how it works.

You give WBTC managers your BTC (if you are that fucking stupid) and they keep your BTC while giving you a voucher.  What the fuck kind of threat is that, exactly?

You have been reading too many sharding papers, Biodom.  

If a depository offers a paper certificate redeemable for an ounce of gold, how is that a risk to gold?  Moreover, there exist blockchains offering tokens that (promise to) represent ownership of gold.  That’s wrapped gold.  Should goldbugs be worried?

Accepting that is a risk to you, in the sense of “not your keys coins, not your coins”.  Arguably, it may be a useful tradeoff in some situations.  I don’t see how some people making that tradeoff affects other people who hold their own gold coins, insofar as a theft by the depository would be just another more or less big gold theft.  Am I missing something?

I do worry about all the bitcoins being held in centralized exchanges, just because that is a terrifically huge proportion of the total supply—all held in a relatively few points of failure, susceptible to coercion, etc.


Insertion between the above and below:

right...and what would happen if instead of $1bil some "btc holding fools" will give WBTC managers $20bil or more?
I think that you two are somewhat ignorant of the threat, perhaps?

Versus how much held in centralized exchanges?

(FWIW, in some clusterfork of a Reputation thread, I mentioned that I would offer jbreher a (virtual) beer if he ever consistently repudiated his beloved forked shitcoins and Faketoshi-apologia, and admitted that he was wrong about Segwit, Core, etc.  The offer stands.)

Does NOT seem very likely that jbreher would engage in any kind of behavior that would allow him to take you up on your beer offer, even though I do hate to lose hope for some people, but sometimes, we just get a sense that some people have gone too far down a path that they cannot feel comfortable coming off of such path...

I am not so naïve to expect any non-negligible chance of that; but I thought it worth mentioning nonetheless.

(I think I got "shitcoin minimalist" from Tone Vays)

I would be interested to know the original source.  Is it Vays, or someone else?  I saw that in qwk’s personal text.

I did look up the quote before I referred to it in my post, so I did recall at the time of my post that Emerson was referring to "foolish consistency" rather than mere consistency on its own.. but purposefully, I just decided to refer to the whole quote in a more vague and amorphous kind of way....

I have observed many people mistake it as if Emerson were criticizing consistency as such—as if inconsistency and self-contradiction were good.  Usually, the misquote without the “foolish” qualifier is presented to rationalize some bout of neophilia, or self-contradictory postmodernism, or divers other pseudointellectual navel-gazing.  I should know that you’re smarter than that—but you should know that on the Internet, so many readers are not!

Damn, I wanted to reply to one of your earlier posts, among others.  You keep writing; I keep getting further behind—may need to pick it up later.

[Toxic2040]

[Biodom]

Am I missing something?

I do worry about all the bitcoins being held in centralized exchanges, just because that is a terrifically huge proportion of the total supply—all held in a relatively few points of failure, susceptible to coercion, etc.

Pretty much everything.
Wrapped bitcoin is a ERC-20 token and "lives" on "their" platform, not their token on "ours".
BTW, it is trading at exact same price as btc, but you can do 'tricks' with it on de-fi.
Those who have the widest platform...
I fear for such ignorance/superiority complex to continue forth unabated.
While btc was the first and I have a great majority of my "crypto" funds committed to it does not mean that I shall ignore the threats to it's dominance.
THAT would be foolish.

[JayJuanGee]

Right now, $1 bil btc is already "wrapped" (WBTC).

There is no such thing as WBTC....

I mean that WBTC is not BTC...  So don't get fooled by what they are calling it.  It is a fucking token.  

So, who fucking cares if the WBTC managers call their token a BTC variant - because BTC, it is not.

Just for clarification, this is how it works.

You give WBTC managers your BTC (if you are that fucking stupid) and they keep your BTC while giving you a voucher.  What the fuck kind of threat is that, exactly?

You have been reading too many sharding papers, Biodom.  

right...and what would happen if instead of $1bil some "btc holding fools" will give WBTC managers $20bil or more?

If someone has not already started a thread on the topic, then maybe you should/  Or maybe someone reading this will be inspired to start such a thread and to outline the multiple reasons why such a threat to BTC exists.

It seems a bit off topic here, but maybe you believe that the threat is the "flippening?"  BTC is not secure because they are all being sent to WBTC managers?  Currently, $20 Billion is about 10% of BTC's supply..  so that could be a threat to BTC, right?  According to you, right?    So if they have 10%, then they would have 2.1 million BTC (or 1.8 million BTC) that they could dump, right?

I do understand that fractional reserve of bitcoin is a kind of threat to bitcoin, but it also seems that if we get all worked up about speculative threats, then aren't we just FUDding?

There are threads about Tether threats, and there are threads about fractional reserve and there are threads about mining centralization... and there are threads about the rising number of stable coins, so we can combine these various FUD threats and make our lil selfies really scared, right?

Whatchagonna do?  Sell your BTC?  Buy less BTC?  Don't fight the ETHheads and the DEFI nutjobs, and join them - by buying eth and some of the other various shit-tokens that are currently blowing up in the space?

Is this FOMO coming from you, Biodom about missing out on the 2020 versions of the 2017 ICOs and the other creative ways of attacking bitcoin or deluding the whole crypto space?  And you believe that bitcoin gives any shits or is going to be fundamentally damaged by the various baloney schemes that are out there?  yes, some people are going to give up their BTC for nonsense, and even some exchanges such as coinbase (and perhaps some others) are going to wrap themselves balls deep into various scam projects, and coinbase is not bitcoin, even if they might get themselves and their BTC holdings into trouble by engaging in ongoing reckless and scamming and scheming behaviors, maybe even being endorsed by banks and by governments?  Who fucking cares?  They are all getting desperate to attack bitcoin, so sure, whatchagonna do?  BTC price is going down?  you going to sell?  Good luck.   

I think that you two are somewhat ignorant of the threat, perhaps?

Seems to me that you are exaggerating the purported threat.  We have been told about a lot of threats over the years, and you believe that this particular purported threat has some kind of greater import because you happen to be concerned about it at the moment (more concerned than you are about BIG blocker propaganda because this particular threat is a "current" threat?)

[Biodom]

we shall see, not selling anything, only buying.

[nullius]

Am I missing something?

Pretty much everything.
Wrapped bitcoin is a ERC-20 token and "lives" on "their" platform, not their token on "ours".

I have not looked into WBTC.  Does it claim to be 1:1 redeemable for actual bitcoins?  If so, I really don’t see a problem (except perhaps for the people who trust that claim).

BTW, it is trading at exact same price as btc, but you can do 'tricks' with it on de-fi.

So...?  At some point, if it claims to be 1:1 redeemable, the wrappers need to be able to unwrap it.  Meaning that they need to have actual bitcoins.(*)  Otherwise, the holders of the wrapped stuff are left with empty bags—and that is pretty much just their problem.  If (if) the backing is honoured with real Bitcoin, I don’t see any problem with that at all.

(* Another subject that I recently began to write about, and did not yet finish:  Fractional reserve banking is mathematically impossible with Bitcoin.  Because fractional reserve banking is not what most people think it is—it is worse—it creates money out of thin air, whereas it is impossible to loan new bitcoins into existence out of nowhere.)

It runs on a different blockchain, so it also doesn’t have the dangers of various sidechain proposals that could interfere directly with the security of the Bitcoin blockchain.

Those who have the widest platform...

That is Bitcoin.

Defi generates much hype; but contrary thereto, it is not actually taking over the world anytime soon.

I fear for such ignorance/superiority complex to continue forth unabated.

I am not defending WBTC.  I just don’t see how it significantly threatens Bitcoin; and you have not proposed any way it can.

So what if people issue instruments based on Bitcoin?  It is bound to happen; and it’s not necessarily a bad idea.  (I myself have had other, very different ideas for Bitcoin-backed instruments.)  At the bottom line, either the bitcoins are there, or they aren’t.  That is a matter of counterparty risk, which falls on the people who trust the counterparties.

[bitebits]

https://twitter.com/michael_saylor/status/1306636046948610049

We acquired 21,454 BTC via 78,388 off-chain transactions, then secured it in cold storage with 18 on-chain transactions.  #Bitcoin scales just fine as a store of value.

[Biodom]

https://twitter.com/michael_saylor/status/1306636046948610049

We acquired 21,454 BTC via 78,388 off-chain transactions, then secured it in cold storage with 18 on-chain transactions.  #Bitcoin scales just fine as a store of value.

Fine, paid a lot of fees to miners (good boy)...honestly, I don't see a need to make 78K tx to get "just" 21K btc.
That's just being a bit severely paranoid. Why not buy some otc in chunks?