Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[HairyMaclairy]

Tera where are we now on that map of yours?

[TERA2]

Tera where are we now on that map of yours?

January 25, 2018

[bitserve]

So my banks just complained. Apparently churning too much money in and out of exchanges has them worried shitless that the taxman will complain. Might have to register as a business to keep trading at the current levels of volume. Not sure I wanna deal with that shit. Especially the part where I have to give up half the profit. Blah.

I understand you wouldn't like giving an exact figure but.... may I ask if we are talking about millions here or are they complaining over a smaller figure? Any ballpark on what triggered their concerns would help.

Millions over several months in local denomination, so... 200-400k in dollar?

The thing is I only make 4-5% per trade, with the upside that there is zero risk on my end. So it looks like massive amounts are being moved (massive in terms of wage slave numbers that is), but it's really just the same pool of money churning back and forth over and over, which to them looks like huge amounts. It pays the rent and a bit more, but it's really nothing massive in terms of profits.

For sure it doesn't look like a big amount BUT having lots of significant (non-negligible) in/out INTERNATIONAL transfers sounds exactly like a business and not regular personal activity... either that or... money laundering!. I guess their concerns go on that path. Did you register an activity and documented it to the banks beforehand? Probably they just want to cover THEIR own asses (KYC/AML thingy).

Do you really need to uses banks all the time for your "activity"? Couldn't you "cache" a bigger ammount outside of banking (ie, spread over several different exchanges to minimize the risk of catastrophic loss) so that you minimize the amount of banking tx's and triggering of alerts?

[Ibian]

So my banks just complained. Apparently churning too much money in and out of exchanges has them worried shitless that the taxman will complain. Might have to register as a business to keep trading at the current levels of volume. Not sure I wanna deal with that shit. Especially the part where I have to give up half the profit. Blah.

I understand you wouldn't like giving an exact figure but.... may I ask if we are talking about millions here or are they complaining over a smaller figure? Any ballpark on what triggered their concerns would help.

Millions over several months in local denomination, so... 200-400k in dollar?

The thing is I only make 4-5% per trade, with the upside that there is zero risk on my end. So it looks like massive amounts are being moved (massive in terms of wage slave numbers that is), but it's really just the same pool of money churning back and forth over and over, which to them looks like huge amounts. It pays the rent and a bit more, but it's really nothing massive in terms of profits.

For sure it doesn't look like a big amount BUT having lots of significant (non-negligible) in/out INTERNATIONAL transfers sounds exactly like a business and not regular personal activity... either that or... money laundering!. I guess their concerns go on that path. Did you register an activity and documented it to the banks beforehand? Probably they just want to cover THEIR own asses (KYC/AML thingy).

Do you really need to uses banks all the time for your "activity"? Couldn't you "cache" a bigger ammount outside of banking (ie, spread over several different exchanges to minimize the risk of catastrophic loss) so that you minimize the amount of banking tx's and triggering of alerts?

One account was specifically made in order to trade bitcoin, which they agreed to beforehand. And the money all goes to kraken, plus a few incoming transactions from people who send fiat after which I send bitcoin. There shouldn't be any problem with any of this, except the size of the amounts - which they didn't care about until just now, because the numbers have been growing.

It's just the volume, nothing else.

[d_eddie]

So I have been thinking about the Lightning Network for a bit as far as running a node goes.

From my limited understanding of it, if you are the node between 2 people you basically fund the transactions going through, they sign a transaction to you, you sign a transaction to them for the equal amount each (so you need twice the amount for the channel),

You don't need twice the amount. It's just the amount because of the way sequence and timelocks are set up to work.

then throughout the length of time of the channel being open you sign transactions back and forth with the people connected to your node then settle everything at the end or whenever someone wants to settle the balance.

Firstly, is that somewhat accurate? I am sure it is super complicated beyond that, otherwise I would know it better.

More than somewhat. Yes, the details are hairy, but that's the basic idea.  One important missing piece is that you need to to have more than 1 channel open in order to route funds. You can close one of your channels when you feel like it.

My question (if that is accurate) is, could I sign every possible transaction for each node connecting to me offline, then only move the signed transactions to a hot database that I pull the transactions from as needed?

For example, A and B connect to me with 1 BTC each. I copy their public key to an offline machine and have it generate a million transactions each (or however many are needed) to account for every possible signed transaction then transfer that to a computer online.

Also, if this is possible, what prevents me from signing all of those transactions then spending the bitcoins somewhere else. Or is this what SegWit fixed?

No you can't do that. You only get some coin from Alice that you must pass on to the opposite end of one of your open channels. Each channel has only two ends: you and the other guy. So you get money on one channel (Alice), you pass it on to Charlie, which will help with another hop, until the coins reach the final destination - Bob, but none of the intermediate nodes knows that. You can't withhold the funds within your node. They must travel onwards.

[vanobe]

So my banks just complained. Apparently churning too much money in and out of exchanges has them worried shitless that the taxman will complain. Might have to register as a business to keep trading at the current levels of volume. Not sure I wanna deal with that shit. Especially the part where I have to give up half the profit. Blah.

I understand you wouldn't like giving an exact figure but.... may I ask if we are talking about millions here or are they complaining over a smaller figure? Any ballpark on what triggered their concerns would help.

Millions over several months in local denomination, so... 200-400k in dollar?

The thing is I only make 4-5% per trade, with the upside that there is zero risk on my end. So it looks like massive amounts are being moved (massive in terms of wage slave numbers that is), but it's really just the same pool of money churning back and forth over and over, which to them looks like huge amounts. It pays the rent and a bit more, but it's really nothing massive in terms of profits.

For sure it doesn't look like a big amount BUT having lots of significant (non-negligible) in/out INTERNATIONAL transfers sounds exactly like a business and not regular personal activity... either that or... money laundering!. I guess their concerns go on that path. Did you register an activity and documented it to the banks beforehand? Probably they just want to cover THEIR own asses (KYC/AML thingy).

Do you really need to uses banks all the time for your "activity"? Couldn't you "cache" a bigger ammount outside of banking (ie, spread over several different exchanges to minimize the risk of catastrophic loss) so that you minimize the amount of banking tx's and triggering of alerts?

One account was specifically made in order to trade bitcoin, which they agreed to beforehand. And the money all goes to kraken, plus a few incoming transactions from people who send fiat after which I send bitcoin. There shouldn't be any problem with any of this, except the size of the amounts - which they didn't care about until just now, because the numbers have been growing.

It's just the volume, nothing else.

This thread might provide some useful information. Some posts in it describe similar account closure experiences to yours. It seems business accounts are needed for big regular transfers.

Free EU bank accounts that you can be opened directly online

[bitserve]

So my banks just complained. Apparently churning too much money in and out of exchanges has them worried shitless that the taxman will complain. Might have to register as a business to keep trading at the current levels of volume. Not sure I wanna deal with that shit. Especially the part where I have to give up half the profit. Blah.

I understand you wouldn't like giving an exact figure but.... may I ask if we are talking about millions here or are they complaining over a smaller figure? Any ballpark on what triggered their concerns would help.

Millions over several months in local denomination, so... 200-400k in dollar?

The thing is I only make 4-5% per trade, with the upside that there is zero risk on my end. So it looks like massive amounts are being moved (massive in terms of wage slave numbers that is), but it's really just the same pool of money churning back and forth over and over, which to them looks like huge amounts. It pays the rent and a bit more, but it's really nothing massive in terms of profits.

For sure it doesn't look like a big amount BUT having lots of significant (non-negligible) in/out INTERNATIONAL transfers sounds exactly like a business and not regular personal activity... either that or... money laundering!. I guess their concerns go on that path. Did you register an activity and documented it to the banks beforehand? Probably they just want to cover THEIR own asses (KYC/AML thingy).

Do you really need to uses banks all the time for your "activity"? Couldn't you "cache" a bigger ammount outside of banking (ie, spread over several different exchanges to minimize the risk of catastrophic loss) so that you minimize the amount of banking tx's and triggering of alerts?

One account was specifically made in order to trade bitcoin, which they agreed to beforehand. And the money all goes to kraken, plus a few incoming transactions from people who send fiat after which I send bitcoin. There shouldn't be any problem with any of this, except the size of the amounts - which they didn't care about until just now, because the numbers have been growing.

It's just the volume, nothing else.

Wait a min... your are receiving bank transfer from other people AND you are not registered as, at the very least, a personal "business" activity?

Not sure if I understood it correctly.

[jojo69]

I like the little particles of orange line leaking out the bottom there Tera.

That is a nice touch.

[HairyMaclairy]

plus a few incoming transactions from people who send fiat after which I send bitcoin.

This might be your issue.  Starts to sound like a money laundering risk for the bank.

[HairyMaclairy]

Tera where are we now on that map of yours?

January 25, 2018

Thanks.  So we are “ahead of schedule” then?

[JayJuanGee]

Corporates pay corporate tax rates on profits.

Except pass-through corporates that pay personal tax rates on profits.

I think that the past few days have been kind of back to "normal" for transactions, and probably more based on organic activity in the network in contrast to the spam attack that had been taking place in the past couple of months. 

[Ibian]

So my banks just complained. Apparently churning too much money in and out of exchanges has them worried shitless that the taxman will complain. Might have to register as a business to keep trading at the current levels of volume. Not sure I wanna deal with that shit. Especially the part where I have to give up half the profit. Blah.

I understand you wouldn't like giving an exact figure but.... may I ask if we are talking about millions here or are they complaining over a smaller figure? Any ballpark on what triggered their concerns would help.

Millions over several months in local denomination, so... 200-400k in dollar?

The thing is I only make 4-5% per trade, with the upside that there is zero risk on my end. So it looks like massive amounts are being moved (massive in terms of wage slave numbers that is), but it's really just the same pool of money churning back and forth over and over, which to them looks like huge amounts. It pays the rent and a bit more, but it's really nothing massive in terms of profits.

For sure it doesn't look like a big amount BUT having lots of significant (non-negligible) in/out INTERNATIONAL transfers sounds exactly like a business and not regular personal activity... either that or... money laundering!. I guess their concerns go on that path. Did you register an activity and documented it to the banks beforehand? Probably they just want to cover THEIR own asses (KYC/AML thingy).

Do you really need to uses banks all the time for your "activity"? Couldn't you "cache" a bigger ammount outside of banking (ie, spread over several different exchanges to minimize the risk of catastrophic loss) so that you minimize the amount of banking tx's and triggering of alerts?

One account was specifically made in order to trade bitcoin, which they agreed to beforehand. And the money all goes to kraken, plus a few incoming transactions from people who send fiat after which I send bitcoin. There shouldn't be any problem with any of this, except the size of the amounts - which they didn't care about until just now, because the numbers have been growing.

It's just the volume, nothing else.

Wait a min... your are receiving bank transfer from other people AND you are not registered as, at the very least, a personal "business" activity?

Not sure if I understood it correctly.

Yup. Bitcoin counts as any other privately sold or bought item - paintings, antiques, furniture, rare baseball caps - garage sale basically.

[RoomBot]

Damp Squib....


BEARish




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[Ibian]

plus a few incoming transactions from people who send fiat after which I send bitcoin.

This might be your issue.  Starts to sound like a money laundering risk for the bank.

Hadn't really considered that. But even then, they wouldn't care if it wasn't for the size of the amounts. It's not precisely a new thing, just more common (and with bigger numbers).

[Paashaas]

They keep inviting idiots, after scumbag Roger now it's Vinny's turn

I rather see Andreas M. Antonopoulos ore Jameson Lopp..oh wait mainstream media are for idiots.

[Paashaas]

'Micro' Finance Giant Robinhood Makes Big Bet on Bitcoin Trading.

https://www.coindesk.com/micro-finance-giant-robinhood-makes-big-bet-on-bitcoin-trading

BitGo Enters Into Agreement To Acquire Kingdom Trust.

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180125006079/en/BitGo-Enters-Agreement-Acquire-Kingdom-Trust

[bitserve]

Yup. Bitcoin counts as any other privately sold or bought item - paintings, antiques, furniture, rare baseball caps - garage sale basically.

Even if it is considered that way it still is a "business" activity if you do it frequently or in non-negligible amounts. If you were receiving thousands of dollars payments for paintings, furniture or whatever.... that's exactly what a business does. Otherwise, noone would register a business if there was no need.

They didn't care until your numbers grow enough, basically because they don't care about trivial things... but the requirement was already there.

From banks/tax agency perspective, EVERY transaction needs to be apropriately labeled (and taxed!). Of course nothing happens... until it does!

So yup, either you find a way to don't use banks for that "activity" (receiving/sending money to other people) or register as a (corporate or personal) business... and not sure if what you do would need some additional requirements in your country. I would chose the first option.

[HairyMaclairy]

Maybe just go in and talk to the branch manager and find out what they need from you.

[vanobe]

Maybe just go in and talk to the branch manager and find out what they need from you.

Probably more money. They charge more for business accounts than for personal accounts. They probably want to hit him with huge business account bank charges every month.

[jojo69]

Doug Polk on Roger Ver

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUO1DvqTpZ8