Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware

[jasinlee]

I have more than 10k invested, and I just feel I have better uses for my time than a fools errand. I think it would be great if yifu stepped up. I just dont think he will, lets call it an educated guess. So I will do something productive and wait it out. To each his own.

[ionstorm]

if the chips are proven to be with customs there really is no breach of contract and its out of yifu's hands
Finding a lawyer to find him responsible for a standard customs delay or investigation would be close to impossible, at this point we need to wait for information and investigate if the chips are in customs hands or were stolen and used as leverage against Avalon.  If yifu is correct in it being customs and having threats against this person and Avalon it would be a extremely tough case to win since he may be able to prove what has happened is not of his hands.  What we need to do now is possibly hire an investigative journalist, lawyer, and private investigator to find facts to build a case.  Right now its too early with too little information, speculation and threats right now are baseless and useless.  

I have more than 10k invested, and I just feel I have better uses for my time than a fools errand. I think it would be great if yifu stepped up. I just dont think he will, lets call it an educated guess. So I will do something productive and wait it out. To each his own.

I too will be waiting it out, right now I still see roi, and even if I dont the returns from this even if not substantial will be used to re-invest in future generation bitcoin hardware.  Right now its too early to make threats, call the feds, etc.  Anything like that would probably delay chip orders even more, the feds shut down Avalon for an investigation? Chips/hardware stop shipment for possibly a year until investigation done?  We need to wait and gather some facts on the actual situation.

[ajk]

I think its safe to say we are not going to see any type of refund, I am not 100% certain but if my memory serves correct I remember yifu stating that chip purchases are non refundable (could have been changed since then)

from the way I see it after mining for several months, it is definitely a losing proposition and again investing more than what you can afford to lose into something like this is going to result in loss of capital, if all you have is going into mining you are going to be way better off investing that BTC into a winning mining company like AsicMiner,

we can all gather up and get the pitchforks but nothing is going to come of that other than headaches and wasted money, all we can do is pray to god that we will see our chip orders, the biggest people in the shitter right now are the people like Steamboat so consider yourself lucky in comparison to someone who took a bigger risk than you,

Yifu, If you are reading this and are not in fact doing what you say I hope that karma comes to bite you in your ass.

[ionstorm]

If you had 40gh and, If difficulty today was 175 million with approximately +20 million difficulty increase per month we would get ROI in 12 months. (barely)

http://mining.thegenesisblock.com/a/f2fb9b45a6

[laughingbear]

if the chips are proven to be with customs there really is no breach of contract and its out of yifu's hands
Finding a lawyer to find him responsible for a standard customs delay or investigation would be close to impossible, at this point we need to wait for information and investigate if the chips are in customs hands or were stolen and used as leverage against Avalon.  If yifu is correct in it being customs and having threats against this person and Avalon it would be a extremely tough case to win since he may be able to prove what has happened is not of his hands.  What we need to do now is possibly hire an investigative journalist, lawyer, and private investigator to find facts to build a case.  Right now its too early with too little information, speculation and threats right now are baseless and useless.  

Nope, his customs/stolen property problems are his own. I paid for a product, and if they cant deliver it, they should refund.  HE owns a business, thats part of the risk. NOT MY PROBLEM as a customer.

[ionstorm]

if the chips are proven to be with customs there really is no breach of contract and its out of yifu's hands
Finding a lawyer to find him responsible for a standard customs delay or investigation would be close to impossible, at this point we need to wait for information and investigate if the chips are in customs hands or were stolen and used as leverage against Avalon.  If yifu is correct in it being customs and having threats against this person and Avalon it would be a extremely tough case to win since he may be able to prove what has happened is not of his hands.  What we need to do now is possibly hire an investigative journalist, lawyer, and private investigator to find facts to build a case.  Right now its too early with too little information, speculation and threats right now are baseless and useless.  

Nope, his customs/stolen property problems are his own. I paid for a product, and if they cant deliver it, they should refund.  HE owns a business, thats part of the risk. NOT MY PROBLEM as a customer.

It says in the No bullshit terms of sale "NO REFUNDS" you know what you got into, im tired of hearing people complain repetitively, i'd be ok if steamboat locked the thread

[powpow]

if the chips are proven to be with customs there really is no breach of contract and its out of yifu's hands
Finding a lawyer to find him responsible for a standard customs delay or investigation would be close to impossible, at this point we need to wait for information and investigate if the chips are in customs hands or were stolen and used as leverage against Avalon.  If yifu is correct in it being customs and having threats against this person and Avalon it would be a extremely tough case to win since he may be able to prove what has happened is not of his hands.  What we need to do now is possibly hire an investigative journalist, lawyer, and private investigator to find facts to build a case.  Right now its too early with too little information, speculation and threats right now are baseless and useless.  

Nope, his customs/stolen property problems are his own. I paid for a product, and if they cant deliver it, they should refund.  HE owns a business, thats part of the risk. NOT MY PROBLEM as a customer.

It says in the No bullshit terms of sale "NO REFUNDS" you know what you got into, im tired of hearing people complain repetitively, i'd be ok if steamboat locked the thread

The "no bullshit" also says 9-10 weeks.

[ionstorm]

if the chips are proven to be with customs there really is no breach of contract and its out of yifu's hands
Finding a lawyer to find him responsible for a standard customs delay or investigation would be close to impossible, at this point we need to wait for information and investigate if the chips are in customs hands or were stolen and used as leverage against Avalon.  If yifu is correct in it being customs and having threats against this person and Avalon it would be a extremely tough case to win since he may be able to prove what has happened is not of his hands.  What we need to do now is possibly hire an investigative journalist, lawyer, and private investigator to find facts to build a case.  Right now its too early with too little information, speculation and threats right now are baseless and useless.  

Nope, his customs/stolen property problems are his own. I paid for a product, and if they cant deliver it, they should refund.  HE owns a business, thats part of the risk. NOT MY PROBLEM as a customer.

It says in the No bullshit terms of sale "NO REFUNDS" you know what you got into, im tired of hearing people complain repetitively, i'd be ok if steamboat locked the thread

The "no bullshit" also says 9-10 weeks.

Quote from "no bullshit terms of sale":

the lead time on the chips is 9 to 10 weeks,

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define+%22lead+time%22

Note: Lead time doesn't mean shipping time

[powpow]

if the chips are proven to be with customs there really is no breach of contract and its out of yifu's hands
Finding a lawyer to find him responsible for a standard customs delay or investigation would be close to impossible, at this point we need to wait for information and investigate if the chips are in customs hands or were stolen and used as leverage against Avalon.  If yifu is correct in it being customs and having threats against this person and Avalon it would be a extremely tough case to win since he may be able to prove what has happened is not of his hands.  What we need to do now is possibly hire an investigative journalist, lawyer, and private investigator to find facts to build a case.  Right now its too early with too little information, speculation and threats right now are baseless and useless.  

Nope, his customs/stolen property problems are his own. I paid for a product, and if they cant deliver it, they should refund.  HE owns a business, thats part of the risk. NOT MY PROBLEM as a customer.

It says in the No bullshit terms of sale "NO REFUNDS" you know what you got into, im tired of hearing people complain repetitively, i'd be ok if steamboat locked the thread

The "no bullshit" also says 9-10 weeks.

Quote from "no bullshit terms of sale":

the lead time on the chips is 9 to 10 weeks,

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define+%22lead+time%22

Note: Lead time doesn't mean shipping time

If something is completed in 10 weeks, then it would be shipped in 10 weeks.  Why are you trolling?

[ionstorm]

if the chips are proven to be with customs there really is no breach of contract and its out of yifu's hands
Finding a lawyer to find him responsible for a standard customs delay or investigation would be close to impossible, at this point we need to wait for information and investigate if the chips are in customs hands or were stolen and used as leverage against Avalon.  If yifu is correct in it being customs and having threats against this person and Avalon it would be a extremely tough case to win since he may be able to prove what has happened is not of his hands.  What we need to do now is possibly hire an investigative journalist, lawyer, and private investigator to find facts to build a case.  Right now its too early with too little information, speculation and threats right now are baseless and useless.  

Nope, his customs/stolen property problems are his own. I paid for a product, and if they cant deliver it, they should refund.  HE owns a business, thats part of the risk. NOT MY PROBLEM as a customer.

It says in the No bullshit terms of sale "NO REFUNDS" you know what you got into, im tired of hearing people complain repetitively, i'd be ok if steamboat locked the thread

The "no bullshit" also says 9-10 weeks.

Quote from "no bullshit terms of sale":

the lead time on the chips is 9 to 10 weeks,

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define+%22lead+time%22

Note: Lead time doesn't mean shipping time

If something is completed in 10 weeks, then it would be shipped in 10 weeks.  Why are you trolling?

not trolling, just tearing apart the no bullshit terms of sale as a lawyer would, it does not clearly say it will ship in 10 weeks, and then says no refunds.

edit:
I'm not defending Avalon, im just pointing out to everyone what we theoretically agreed to and stating that it would be a hard case to sue Avalon in these terms.

[powpow]

if the chips are proven to be with customs there really is no breach of contract and its out of yifu's hands
Finding a lawyer to find him responsible for a standard customs delay or investigation would be close to impossible, at this point we need to wait for information and investigate if the chips are in customs hands or were stolen and used as leverage against Avalon.  If yifu is correct in it being customs and having threats against this person and Avalon it would be a extremely tough case to win since he may be able to prove what has happened is not of his hands.  What we need to do now is possibly hire an investigative journalist, lawyer, and private investigator to find facts to build a case.  Right now its too early with too little information, speculation and threats right now are baseless and useless.  

Nope, his customs/stolen property problems are his own. I paid for a product, and if they cant deliver it, they should refund.  HE owns a business, thats part of the risk. NOT MY PROBLEM as a customer.

It says in the No bullshit terms of sale "NO REFUNDS" you know what you got into, im tired of hearing people complain repetitively, i'd be ok if steamboat locked the thread

The "no bullshit" also says 9-10 weeks.

Quote from "no bullshit terms of sale":

the lead time on the chips is 9 to 10 weeks,

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define+%22lead+time%22

Note: Lead time doesn't mean shipping time

If something is completed in 10 weeks, then it would be shipped in 10 weeks.  Why are you trolling?

not trolling, just tearing apart the no bullshit terms of sale as a lawyer would, it does not clearly say it will ship in 10 weeks, and then says no refunds.

Dude -- get real.  Completion of the project 10 weeks.  Completion of the terms of me ordering chips would be chips shipped to me, that simple.  It is a breach.

[ionstorm]

if the chips are proven to be with customs there really is no breach of contract and its out of yifu's hands
Finding a lawyer to find him responsible for a standard customs delay or investigation would be close to impossible, at this point we need to wait for information and investigate if the chips are in customs hands or were stolen and used as leverage against Avalon.  If yifu is correct in it being customs and having threats against this person and Avalon it would be a extremely tough case to win since he may be able to prove what has happened is not of his hands.  What we need to do now is possibly hire an investigative journalist, lawyer, and private investigator to find facts to build a case.  Right now its too early with too little information, speculation and threats right now are baseless and useless.  

Nope, his customs/stolen property problems are his own. I paid for a product, and if they cant deliver it, they should refund.  HE owns a business, thats part of the risk. NOT MY PROBLEM as a customer.

It says in the No bullshit terms of sale "NO REFUNDS" you know what you got into, im tired of hearing people complain repetitively, i'd be ok if steamboat locked the thread

The "no bullshit" also says 9-10 weeks.

Quote from "no bullshit terms of sale":

the lead time on the chips is 9 to 10 weeks,

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define+%22lead+time%22

Note: Lead time doesn't mean shipping time

If something is completed in 10 weeks, then it would be shipped in 10 weeks.  Why are you trolling?

not trolling, just tearing apart the no bullshit terms of sale as a lawyer would, it does not clearly say it will ship in 10 weeks, and then says no refunds.

Dude -- get real.  Completion of the project 10 weeks.  Completion of the terms of me ordering chips would be chips shipped to me, that simple.  It is a breach.

I'm just saying Technically that could be argued in court from Avalon, people have clearly misread what "lead time" means, it does not clearly state when they will be shipped, so its at their discretion.  The only way I see it is if we/you/us could prove they have mislead us or prove that any of their recently revealed news is false we would have a fighting chance in court. 

[bitcoiner49er]

if the chips are proven to be with customs there really is no breach of contract and its out of yifu's hands
Finding a lawyer to find him responsible for a standard customs delay or investigation would be close to impossible, at this point we need to wait for information and investigate if the chips are in customs hands or were stolen and used as leverage against Avalon.  If yifu is correct in it being customs and having threats against this person and Avalon it would be a extremely tough case to win since he may be able to prove what has happened is not of his hands.  What we need to do now is possibly hire an investigative journalist, lawyer, and private investigator to find facts to build a case.  Right now its too early with too little information, speculation and threats right now are baseless and useless.  

Nope, his customs/stolen property problems are his own. I paid for a product, and if they cant deliver it, they should refund.  HE owns a business, thats part of the risk. NOT MY PROBLEM as a customer.

It says in the No bullshit terms of sale "NO REFUNDS" you know what you got into, im tired of hearing people complain repetitively, i'd be ok if steamboat locked the thread

The "no bullshit" also says 9-10 weeks.

Quote from "no bullshit terms of sale":

the lead time on the chips is 9 to 10 weeks,

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define+%22lead+time%22

Note: Lead time doesn't mean shipping time

If something is completed in 10 weeks, then it would be shipped in 10 weeks.  Why are you trolling?

not trolling, just tearing apart the no bullshit terms of sale as a lawyer would, it does not clearly say it will ship in 10 weeks, and then says no refunds.

Dude -- get real.  Completion of the project 10 weeks.  Completion of the terms of me ordering chips would be chips shipped to me, that simple.  It is a breach.

I'm just saying Technically that could be argued in court from Avalon, people have clearly misread what "lead time" means, it does not clearly state when they will be shipped, so its at their discretion.  The only way I see it is if we/you/us could prove they have mislead us or prove that any of their recently revealed news is false we would have a fighting chance in court. 

we opened refunding option for batch #3 order since it is quite delayed, batch 2 is shipping and should be finished shipping in the end of the month, then batch #3 is to start right after, we are not refunding chip orders since the coins gets sold and is used to pay for chip order at foundry, canceling is not really possible.

but essentially we put in order for chips every week, by early JULY the chips that were ordered when we opened orders should be out the door by then.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240189.msg2562419#msg2562419

[dentldir]

I'm just saying Technically that could be argued in court from Avalon, people have clearly misread what "lead time" means, it does not clearly state when they will be shipped, so its at their discretion.  The only way I see it is if we/you/us could prove they have mislead us or prove that any of their recently revealed news is false we would have a fighting chance in court. 

For anyone that has never fought a long drawn out battle in court, please listen to ionstorm.  Yes, you feel you've been wronged by Avalon, but proving it in court is different matter entirely.
 

[laughingbear]

no refunds???  Hell i didnt even get a product to refund!  so your theory is that i can promise the world, but as long as i say no refunds... you dont have a right to get pissed when i never deliver??? use some common sense.

[Crindon]

The difficulty is now just over 50 Million.

[Boxman90]

steamboat, would much like to hear from you and your stance on refunds. Are you going to do anything about it, or are you just going to wait untill we are TRULY royally fucked?

[bitcoiner49er]

I'm just saying Technically that could be argued in court from Avalon, people have clearly misread what "lead time" means, it does not clearly state when they will be shipped, so its at their discretion.  The only way I see it is if we/you/us could prove they have mislead us or prove that any of their recently revealed news is false we would have a fighting chance in court. 

For anyone that has never fought a long drawn out battle in court, please listen to ionstorm.  Yes, you feel you've been wronged by Avalon, but proving it in court is different matter entirely.
 

So to sit and wait is preferred? 

IF chips get delivered as you hope by waiting and by the time the manufacturers get them to us, they produce basically nothing; how is that better than a drawn out legal battle that recoups my chip investment? YiFu gets nothing and we get back some/all of what we invested. Waiting is for losers, that's why we all got in as soon as we could for "open source" chips from the friendly Avalon corp.  You can't "wait" in the world of Bitcoin. (That does mean you throw caution aside though.)

[KS]

I'm just saying Technically that could be argued in court from Avalon, people have clearly misread what "lead time" means, it does not clearly state when they will be shipped, so its at their discretion.  The only way I see it is if we/you/us could prove they have mislead us or prove that any of their recently revealed news is false we would have a fighting chance in court. 

For anyone that has never fought a long drawn out battle in court, please listen to ionstorm.  Yes, you feel you've been wronged by Avalon, but proving it in court is different matter entirely.
 

So to sit and wait is preferred? 

IF chips get delivered as you hope by waiting and by the time the manufacturers get them to us, they produce basically nothing; how is that better than a drawn out legal battle that recoups my chip investment? YiFu gets nothing and we get back some/all of what we invested. Waiting is for losers, that's why we all got in as soon as we could for "open source" chips from the friendly Avalon corp.  You can't "wait" in the world of Bitcoin. (That does mean you throw caution aside though.)

Look, it means you've made a bad investment and your money is lost. Going the legal way is just going to make it worse for you and everyone else.

You can try and "apply pressure", but that's not going to happen in a tribunal. It could last for years, cost a bunch and they could still decide to bankrupt the company (good luck getting your BTC back).

So, keep your cool, find alternative solutions. If Avalon doesn't come up with a way to make nice with its customers, they're history. Take what consolation you can from that.

If you feel you must cut your losses, do so. Invest in something that will bring you a safe, decent return.

[-Redacted-]

+1 for the sensible reply...