Incoming Avalon News 8/9/2013

[ProfMac]

How about starting a BTCT stock to raise funds for legal action against Avalon.
The action this stock would get would be incredible..

I believe it is illegal to do this in Texas.  We brought a wrongful death lawsuit in Colorado, and that was one avenue we considered to pay the legal fees. 

We represented ourselves pro se in the Federal court of appeals out of Denver.  We won several points on the appeal, by the way.

With my own past experience, I can't recommend that you pursue a lawsuit.

Sorry, but what does this have to do with Texas?  Is Avalon based there?

It may be illegal in other US states.  I don't have experience in them.  There may be people who are living in Texas who want to join this lawsuit.  They should learn more.

[Its About Sharing]

How about starting a BTCT stock to raise funds for legal action against Avalon.
The action this stock would get would be incredible..

That would raise money. But, how about a way that is definitely legal? Though, we should look further into what you suggested. I'm sure there are lawyers around here...
There are many ways, there are kickstarter type ways, class actions, just plain raising money, etc.
Avalon is in China or ? If they are not in the US, perhaps there is a problem, but even then...

I wrote Marco Santori a PM, maybe he posts an answer here. He could say how much he needs to get this starting. As far as I know (out of American movies  ), the lawyer gets paid by the amount he gets out of the accused.

Company Name:     BITSYNCOM LLC
Status:     Active      
Filing Date:     09/24/2012
Entity Type:     Domestic Limited-Liability Company      
File Number:     E0498002012-8      
Company Age:     11 Months
Registered Agent: Business Filings Incorporated, 311 S Division St, Carson City, NV 89703
Filing State: Nevada (NV)
Qualifying State: N/A
Report Due Date:  09/30/2013

http://www.bizapedia.com/nv/BITSYNCOM-LLC.html

I'm not sure if that is the model we want. A lawyer will represent us and take 1/3 of the money. That doesn't sound fair at all. It would be better to raise a bit of money and use that to buy a lawyer. I don't really know, but we should consider what is best. I'm sure some people who lost big money with Avalon are talking about this. Perhaps they will do the work, let's just hope they aren't already infiltrated...

[VolanicEruptor]

How about starting a BTCT stock to raise funds for legal action against Avalon.
The action this stock would get would be incredible..

I believe it is illegal to do this in Texas.  We brought a wrongful death lawsuit in Colorado, and that was one avenue we considered to pay the legal fees. 

We represented ourselves pro se in the Federal court of appeals out of Denver.  We won several points on the appeal, by the way.

With my own past experience, I can't recommend that you pursue a lawsuit.

Sorry, but what does this have to do with Texas?  Is Avalon based there?

It may be illegal in other US states.  I don't have experience in them.  There may be people who are living in Texas who want to join this lawsuit.  They should learn more.

You can fund a lawyer anywhere in the world with bitcoin.  You do know U.S. isnt the only country in the world, right? 

[Bitcoinorama]

How about starting a BTCT stock to raise funds for legal action against Avalon.
The action this stock would get would be incredible..

That would raise money. But, how about a way that is definitely legal? Though, we should look further into what you suggested. I'm sure there are lawyers around here...
There are many ways, there are kickstarter type ways, class actions, just plain raising money, etc.
Avalon is in China or ? If they are not in the US, perhaps there is a problem, but even then...

I wrote Marco Santori a PM, maybe he posts an answer here. He could say how much he needs to get this starting. As far as I know (out of American movies  ), the lawyer gets paid by the amount he gets out of the accused.

Company Name:     BITSYNCOM LLC
Status:     Active      
Filing Date:     09/24/2012
Entity Type:     Domestic Limited-Liability Company      
File Number:     E0498002012-8      
Company Age:     11 Months
Registered Agent: Business Filings Incorporated, 311 S Division St, Carson City, NV 89703
Filing State: Nevada (NV)
Qualifying State: N/A
Report Due Date:  09/30/2013

http://www.bizapedia.com/nv/BITSYNCOM-LLC.html

I'm not sure if that is the model we want. A lawyer will represent us and take 1/3 of the money. That doesn't sound fair at all. It would be better to raise a bit of money and use that to buy a lawyer. I don't really know, but we should consider what is best. I'm sure some people who lost big money with Avalon are talking about this. Perhaps they will do the work, let's just hope they aren't already infiltrated...

Marco Santori writes for Coindesk. I very much doubt he'll knock the community after what's happened, plus it would help him, and Coindesk, professionally, as he clearly wants to his specific expertise to become more Bitcon related.

It would likely be a win-win scenario, he may even be able to negotiate something out of court to avoid any legal precident being made, although I fear it maybe past that, if chips meant for the group buys have indeed been ready since June, or resold, as alleged.

[Vigil]

^^^^Yes^^^^

to all of that stuff.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

How about starting a BTCT stock to raise funds for legal action against Avalon.
The action this stock would get would be incredible..

That would raise money. But, how about a way that is definitely legal? Though, we should look further into what you suggested. I'm sure there are lawyers around here...
There are many ways, there are kickstarter type ways, class actions, just plain raising money, etc.
Avalon is in China or ? If they are not in the US, perhaps there is a problem, but even then...

I wrote Marco Santori a PM, maybe he posts an answer here. He could say how much he needs to get this starting. As far as I know (out of American movies  ), the lawyer gets paid by the amount he gets out of the accused.

Company Name:     BITSYNCOM LLC
Status:     Active      
Filing Date:     09/24/2012
Entity Type:     Domestic Limited-Liability Company      
File Number:     E0498002012-8      
Company Age:     11 Months
Registered Agent: Business Filings Incorporated, 311 S Division St, Carson City, NV 89703
Filing State: Nevada (NV)
Qualifying State: N/A
Report Due Date:  09/30/2013

http://www.bizapedia.com/nv/BITSYNCOM-LLC.html

Not sure if this will help, but wei chen digs bitcoin: http://whois.domaintools.com/digbitcoin.com

Yifu and Wei Chen share the same address in Brooklyn, NY.

[DeathAndTaxes]

I'm not sure if that is the model we want. A lawyer will represent us and take 1/3 of the money.

Don't worry no lawyer would take a case like this on contingency anyways.  Lawyers generally work on contingency (name for when they take a cut of any damages received) when the case is cut and dry or routine.  Dumbass drunk driving smashes into you and your lawyer will sue the shit out of his insurance company.  Really it is just a matter of how big of a check the insurance company is going to write.

Any lawsuit which is complex, and this would be complex, the lawyer wants some guaranteed cold hard cash (or bits) up front.  You open a retainer account deposit tens of thousands of dollars into it and the lawyers staff will bill against that (drafted demand letter $125, conducted research $85, conference call with lead plantiffs $205, etc).  Monthly (and yes you would be lucky to get into a courtroom in months) the secretary will send you a balance statement and ask you to replenish the retainer. If/when it runs out of money the law firm stops working.  You keep paying and paying and paying until you either give up or get a verdict.

[ProfMac]

I believe it is illegal to do this in Texas.  We brought a wrongful death lawsuit in Colorado, and that was one avenue we considered to pay the legal fees. 

We represented ourselves pro se in the Federal court of appeals out of Denver.  We won several points on the appeal, by the way.

With my own past experience, I can't recommend that you pursue a lawsuit.

No offense, but may I ask how much BTC you made on Avalon hardware? Just a ballpark figure?

Others and myself, are on the side of the scales which only gave.

I have a batch #2 Avalon, paid very late on Feb. 18 in the amount of 56.25712356 BTC in WalletBit TXid 5268c88176f24dcaae4e862e9ec1ad696a6915a20f1de9a7fe7042ad9b2f3b9b, and delivered at the very end of Batch #2.

It began hashing July 9th.  It has received 48.18638542 BTC as of this writing.  In 2 more weeks, it may achieve breakeven.

In an imaginary world that does not exist, I made 5 BTC / day beginning in March when delivery was projected, and I addressed some big issues, such as cancer medicine and Alzheimer's care.  Please do not underestimate my disappointment at not having those items.  I am vulnerable, and Avalon did not turn out to be a lifeline.

Nonetheless, I look back on the lawsuit that I did file, and I am pessimistic about them.  Let's start with this question:  how many of the prospective members of this lawsuit are residents of the US and have not registered as an MSB?  I think that you must, if you are a miner.  If you have not registered, are you trying to get a US court to give you help in carrying out an illegal activity?  I don't know the answer to that, but if you want to be a part of this lawsuit, I think that you should.

I also do not know whether intent enters into this.  I do not believe that Yifu intended to cheat anyone.  I believe that things went wrong and he did not have the right stuff to fix it.  You might want to know whether intent matters in the action that you want to take.  If it does, you might want to look for a little more evidence than I have noticed now.

If you get far, you get to court, and you win your case, then what?  Yifu has suggested that he does not control the address where the money went.  He has suggested that he made a deal where he liquidated some bitcoin for fiat to pay the FAB.  What if that is true, and he is currently broke and inexperienced, and not the loser in a judgement.  I hear angry voices saying that he is rich and we should bring pitchforks, but I do not see the evidence that he has the money.   If someone had the money to buy the bitcoins, do you think that they are inexperienced, weak, and without their own legal counsel?  Do you think they have done any wrongdoing?  Do you think you can get that money?

The only thing that I think Yifu may have is 1)  any chips that are not delivered, 2) the design itself, and 3) any fiat money that can be found and confiscated.  The chips will almost certainly be delivered before a lawsuit can be brought.  The design itself has already been promised as open source, and may not have any value when the 28nm ASICS roll out.  Fiat money, who knows, but I think you should know the answer to that before filing a lawsuit.

You may tie up a significant amount of money and not receive a payout for a long time.  Your competitors, including myself, will take our funds and re-invest them into other bitcoin activities.  I think we will have more bitcoin than you will.

I am not discounting the anger.  I am not discounting the hopes that were raised, the plans that were made and had even more money spent on them.  I am just saying that the evidence that I see is weak, the hopes for success in a lawsuit are similar to the hopes that were placed in Avalon back in February and may be even more empty.

Yifu is communicating now as much as he did during the Batch #2 fulfillment period.  This cannot be a surprise.  These chips are late, but so was Batch #1 and Batch #2.  This knowledge was in front of you when you made the purchase.  Tell me what answer you will give to the judge when he says "Isn't that curious.  Tell me why you thought he would ship on time this time?"

I'm going to quietly work on my own design to use the chips that I ordered.  I am not going to seek a lawsuit.

[ex-trader]

It would be better to raise a bit of money and use that to buy a lawyer.

'bit'....You've obviously never paid lawyers!

I use a lot of lawyers in my businesses, the cheapest is about $400 per hour and my most expensive ever used was $10,000 per hour. Start a legal action and you're into hundreds of thousands or millions really quickly.

[ffssixtynine]

Going to court over this will be hideously expensive, lengthy, and with a fair chance of being unproductive. Even winning does not necessarily mean you 'win'.

[Its About Sharing]

I'm not sure if that is the model we want. A lawyer will represent us and take 1/3 of the money.

Don't worry no lawyer would take a case like this on contingency (the name of the model where the lawyer gets a cut).  Lawyers generally work on contingency when the case is cut and dry.  Dumbass drunk driving hits you and your lawyer will sue the shit out of his insurance company for a cut.  Massive (think tens of millions of USD) class action lawsuits are another example.

Any lawsuit which is complex, and this is the lawyer wants some guaranteed cold hard cash (or bits) up front.  You open a retainer account deposit tends of thousands of dollars and the lawyers staff will bill against that and monthly show you your retainer account is getting low.  When it runs out of money the lawfirm stops working.

Thanks for the information. Until we see the information, I guess though, we don't really know if this is a hard case or not.

I'm thinking this lawsuit is less about a breach of contract and more about a criminal matter. (e.g. - Selling our chips to a higher bidder.)
I don't know if this can just be handed civilly, there might very well be jail time in this type of case. (I mean outside of banks and large corporation CEO's, most people that defraud others, go to jail.)

Because money was essentially stolen from us by not only not delivering a product to us, but also by delivering our product to another party(ies).

The lack of communication is very indicative of wrong doing in this case.

IAS

ex-trader - I understand lawyers cost a lot of money but there are many many people involved here. I wouldn't be surprised if we raised a ton. Again, maybe this isn't the best way because it is cost prohibitive. But we have to look at that.

ffssixtynine - Yeah, many people drop lawsuits because of time. Well, looks like Avalon and Yifu are probably hoping for that. But by just looking at the evidence thus far (and lack of communication), it seems worthy of doing. Many many people spent lots of money and no product was delivered (to the people who got the buy going). I'm sure our chips are out there mining for whomever Yifu sold them to. Sometimes justice is costly and takes time, but it is still justice...

[ProfMac]

How about starting a BTCT stock to raise funds for legal action against Avalon.
The action this stock would get would be incredible..

I believe it is illegal to do this in Texas.  We brought a wrongful death lawsuit in Colorado, and that was one avenue we considered to pay the legal fees. 

We represented ourselves pro se in the Federal court of appeals out of Denver.  We won several points on the appeal, by the way.

With my own past experience, I can't recommend that you pursue a lawsuit.

Sorry, but what does this have to do with Texas?  Is Avalon based there?

It may be illegal in other US states.  I don't have experience in them.  There may be people who are living in Texas who want to join this lawsuit.  They should learn more.

You can fund a lawyer anywhere in the world with bitcoin.  You do know U.S. isnt the only country in the world, right? 

The issue is not whether the attorney is paid with bitcoin, or chickens, or gold; the issue is whether the plaintiff are raising money to fund a lawsuit.
Which of those countries do you believe a lawsuit can be brought in?

I did find some reference to the attorneys themselves borrowing money,  and oddly enough, one of the lawsuits was in Texas.  I have been by a creosote plant in that area, perhaps the one named in this lawsuit. 

That page does have this quote:


Del Webb sued MC Mojave, arguing that Nevada law prohibited fomenting and investing in lawsuits. Jacque Petroulakis, a company spokeswoman, said that Del Webb would have fixed legitimate problems under its warranty policy, and that the lawsuits served solely to make money for MC Mojave and the law firm.

[Micky25]

If you fight, you may lose, but if you don’t fight, you’ve already lost.

[VolanicEruptor]

If you fight, you may lose, but if you don’t fight, you’ve already lost.

You've already lost credibility though when you said "i saw this in a movie once..".  I agree with you though with your little one liner..

[bitcoin carpenter]

I applaud the stand that the DIY community is taking.... and I hope josh is taking notice, because unlike the bfl crowd, the chip using DIY people will nail your ass to the wall if your late
No more holding back preorders for over a year

[Newscastix]

I'll just leave this here:

http://thegenesisblock.com/800000-avalon-asic-bitcoin-mining-chips-expected-over-next-month/

Time will tell what happens...

[Vigil]

Why do so many think that this has to actually go to court? Just having a lawyer make contact with Yifu and "forcing" a discussion on a compensation plan is all that is needed.

[VolanicEruptor]

Deal should be that everyone keeps their chips, but receive at LEAST 60% profit made from under-the-table deal, seeing as how that was done at the expense of his customers.

[eve]

Why do so many think that this has to actually go to court? Just having a lawyer make contact with Yifu and "forcing" a discussion on a compensation plan is all that is needed.

This will be a good option to look into.

[eve]

He took your early orders of the chips and miners and sell them to a willing buyer that can offer more, and turn around gave lot of excuses for the delay and at the meantime Order a newer batch for you. So you have to wait. Not only that he also mines himself using your miners for 2 months, to make a boatload of money for himself. Smart Guy.