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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2756302 times)
CIYAM
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March 08, 2014, 07:16:03 AM
 #41801

I agree that we already have the Alias system so there is no reason for an Asset to *have a name* at all (just a unique number should suffice - perhaps even issuing account # plus date).

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
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March 08, 2014, 07:16:26 AM
Last edit: March 08, 2014, 08:17:41 AM by BrianNowhere
 #41802

...

the transaction fees are still too damn high, forging rewards are way to low & come too slow for all but the richest Nxters.

...

Slow? Maybe. Low? No, everyone gets the same percentage. Anyways, you can't have high forging rewards and low fees.

Well I've been at it over 1 month with 10k NXT and haven't seen a single block. Supposedly I'll get 100 Nxt sometime in the next 11 months but in the meantime it sure seems like a waste of time and the longer I wait the less I believe it. It's not about the Nxt for me, I've given away far more than that, but it makes me concerned for the system as a whole as I don't think many people will bother with forging if this is how it is.
10K nxt and you expect 'mining' reward? So you would invest less than a bitcoin in a PoW hardware and you would expect reward too?
Do I miss something?

I don't quite know how to get my point across on this issue without continually being accused of complaining about not getting rewarded personally.  

Bitcoin does not need a majority of holders to mine. Their network is secure as long as a small percentage of people engage in mining. They don't even have to be holding Bitcoin, they can dump it to  FIAT as soon as they get it. You can't tell people not to compare forging with mining and then turn around and do it yourself.

NXT as far as I understand it needs a larger percentage of it's userbase to be forging than bitcoin does or the network will be insecure.

If this is the case, then you are going to have to incentivize these holders or the wide majority of them will simply not forge (again, I'm not referring to myself, stay focused here) . They'll log in and out when they want to use it, if they decide to use NXT at all. These "little people" are going to be exposing their machine to a possible DDOS attack, have to run their computer 24/7 (Most people shut them off at night) and be giving up processing power they don't need to (someone who uses their computer for video editing wants to eliminate every unneeded MB CPU power)

I understand that there's nodecoin being created on top of the network, which I am hopeful will be enough to motivate the needed constituency to forge. My worry there is that 99% of potential NXT users might not bother with the AE or want to go to all that trouble. It sounds kinda like something just for the nerds to do & I want NXT to be for everyone, not just nerds and nerdtrepreneurs. ( and I use the term nerd endearingly, not as a pejorative)

So once again I am not bringing up this issue because I am dissatisfied with my return. I am thinking about the bigger picture in the future when everyday normal people will be using NXT. If the entire networks' survival depends on a certain percentage of these people to be forging then this FACT has to be taken into account when figuring out how to motivate just enough of them, preferably more than that, to contribute. It is a mathematical issue, not a financial one. The devs need to face the fact that 99% of people will follow the path of least resistance. If 99% of NXT users not forging is OK for the network to work then I am cool with it. If not then I think this issue needs to be taken a lot more seriously because the very survival of NXT just might depend on it.

In my opinion, you're better off dishing out smaller rewards at a faster pace. People are like lab rats who feel rewarded when they get a pellet. It would be better to get .001 NXT every couple of days than 10 NXT after many months. It is simple psychology. Almost every successful software "invention" these days is successful because it's addicting. Twitter, facebook, Angry Birds, Flappy Birds, Candy Crush, Farmville. All very successful and all very addicting. Give the people their pellets and they will be addicted and they will forge.

NXT: 4957831430947123625
farl4web
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March 08, 2014, 07:16:33 AM
 #41803

Girls 'n boys,

I don't know why until now there exists no Wikipedia-Article about NXT in the main Wikipedias (English, German, Netherlands, Swedish, etc.)?


Wikipedia deleted the article as they considered Nxt insignificant. Don't repost the article again or it will be just deleted again.

We first need to promote Nxt outside Wikipedia in mainstream media, and implement major announced features.

looool  -  WikiStupopedia also tries to tell you that there were nookuular WMD in Iraq  Tongue

Whatever.

Wikipedia is the greatest thing since slice bread -- and no that's isn't sarcasm. I really mean it.

 
I will write the Dutch wiki to help.

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March 08, 2014, 07:18:05 AM
 #41804

Usability is KING!

A visitor of Nextcoin.org tells about his experience and why Nxt is difficult to use for newbees. I totally agree with him, usability is more important than futuristic features. How can we solve this problem?

https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,4339.new.html


It can be resolved by integrating wesleyh client  with NRS and distributing it as simple executable application.

Or just use Marcus3 client that works without local copy of NRS

 

NXT-GZYP-FMRT-FQ9K-3YQGS
https://nxtforum.org
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March 08, 2014, 07:22:20 AM
 #41805

NXT as far as I understand it needs a larger percentage of it's userbase to be forging than bitcoin does or the network will be insecure.

Why? That doesn't even make sense.

NXT-GZYP-FMRT-FQ9K-3YQGS
https://nxtforum.org
2Kool4Skewl
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March 08, 2014, 07:28:27 AM
 #41806

If Etherium is such a big deal and the community is more important than the technical advantages, why does Nxt has 2160 pages and Etherium only 74 pages on Bitcointalk.org?
Ethereum is 2 advocacy guys project, Nxt is 1000 random guys project

This is naive as hell... Ethereum got so much more influence than you even want to know

That is because it is backed by major financial institutions.

Which is why they have hired top lawyers, top programmers, top marketing experts etc.
Noone in the real world gives a single fuck that Ethereum isn't a "activist project".

I sincerely hope that isn't the case.

There are some things money cannot buy.

I wish that was the case, but sadly in the real world it isn't ;\
If they provide the best service and tech, then average people (99,9% of the population) wont care one bit of the history involved.
And Ethereum got a lot of activists in it too so it's not like they are 100% synthetic and clinical.


NXT has too much drama, too skewed distribution of NXT, a lot of activists have already abandoned ship and more are doing so soon.
How did the marketing committee get selected? At least 2 of them used dirty tactics to get in the position they are now.

We barely got developers even and soon we lose CfB. This isn't something new, this is something people have known for months now and yet nothing changes. We keep drifting and drifting.
A lot of people learn of NXT, become involved, do great work, get zero pay, get disheartened and leave. Look at how many important people left to NEM. And *finally* NEM is auditing their IPO, so suddenly it'll be 10 times fairer than NXT in terms of distribution.
I have defended NXTs distribution 100 times, but it's clear that the vast majority of big holders are idle for a reason and that reason isn't strategic. (like Pouncer deluded himself to think)

Some people might sell out for money, but not everyone does.  I believe the true believers in liberty and freedom back their words with action.

I think the distribution of NXT is fine now.  I remember a lot of large stakeholders selling NXT for next to nothing in the beginning.  I see other stakeholders funding development.  I disagree that NEM will be "fairer".

I didn't think "dirty" tactics were used in the campaign.  What are you referring to?

 
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2Kool4Skewl
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March 08, 2014, 07:29:20 AM
 #41807

NXT as far as I understand it needs a larger percentage of it's userbase to be forging than bitcoin does or the network will be insecure.

Why? That doesn't even make sense.

That depends on who forges and how much NXT they own.

 
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pinarello
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March 08, 2014, 07:34:32 AM
 #41808

Usability is KING!

A visitor of Nextcoin.org tells about his experience and why Nxt is difficult to use for newbees. I totally agree with him, usability is more important than futuristic features. How can we solve this problem?

https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,4339.new.html


Great DEMO of wesleyh his client !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAhnpfkM0Z4

donation for video welcome: NXT: 12088507821025750338

donations for wesleyh: NXT:  8189784314684138350


TRY IT OUT and test AE!

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March 08, 2014, 07:35:08 AM
 #41809

If Etherium is such a big deal and the community is more important than the technical advantages, why does Nxt has 2160 pages and Etherium only 74 pages on Bitcointalk.org?
Ethereum is 2 advocacy guys project, Nxt is 1000 random guys project

This is naive as hell... Ethereum got so much more influence than you even want to know

That is because it is backed by major financial institutions.

Which is why they have hired top lawyers, top programmers, top marketing experts etc.
Noone in the real world gives a single fuck that Ethereum isn't a "activist project".

I sincerely hope that isn't the case.

There are some things money cannot buy.

I wish that was the case, but sadly in the real world it isn't ;\
If they provide the best service and tech, then average people (99,9% of the population) wont care one bit of the history involved.
And Ethereum got a lot of activists in it too so it's not like they are 100% synthetic and clinical.


NXT has too much drama, too skewed distribution of NXT, a lot of activists have already abandoned ship and more are doing so soon.
How did the marketing committee get selected? At least 2 of them used dirty tactics to get in the position they are now.

We barely got developers even and soon we lose CfB. This isn't something new, this is something people have known for months now and yet nothing changes. We keep drifting and drifting.
A lot of people learn of NXT, become involved, do great work, get zero pay, get disheartened and leave. Look at how many important people left to NEM. And *finally* NEM is auditing their IPO, so suddenly it'll be 10 times fairer than NXT in terms of distribution.
I have defended NXTs distribution 100 times, but it's clear that the vast majority of big holders are idle for a reason and that reason isn't strategic. (like Pouncer deluded himself to think)

Some people might sell out for money, but not everyone does.  I believe the true believers in liberty and freedom back their words with action.

I think the distribution of NXT is fine now.  I remember a lot of large stakeholders selling NXT for next to nothing in the beginning.  I see other stakeholders funding development.  I disagree that NEM will be "fairer".

I didn't think "dirty" tactics were used in the campaign.  What are you referring to?

The thing is: people wont see it as selling out. If Ethereum provides the best way for them to use Cryptos they have zero reason to think that Ethereum is any less "activist" than NXT. NXT's top 60 accounts still have like 65% of all NXT and they paid 30-50-100 dollars for it.
It's not a healthy distribution at all because it means all the power is centralized.
You can make the argument (as I have in marketing situations) that Bitcoin's distribution is just as bad, but that's not really a great defense as Bitcoin was the first crypto, the first prototype. We came 5 years later and couldn't even get that right.
NEM will have a lot more incentive for newcomers.

You can't say that a lot of big holders are giving out bounties, they simply aren't.


If you have read JustaBits post you would know what I am referring to. A certain individual tried to discredit him and Nifty and ended up getting a lot of votes from it.
Another person went on a smearcampaign right before teh voting started.
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March 08, 2014, 07:36:49 AM
 #41810

...

the transaction fees are still too damn high, forging rewards are way to low & come too slow for all but the richest Nxters.

...

Slow? Maybe. Low? No, everyone gets the same percentage. Anyways, you can't have high forging rewards and low fees.

Well I've been at it over 1 month with 10k NXT and haven't seen a single block. Supposedly I'll get 100 Nxt sometime in the next 11 months but in the meantime it sure seems like a waste of time and the longer I wait the less I believe it. It's not about the Nxt for me, I've given away far more than that, but it makes me concerned for the system as a whole as I don't think many people will bother with forging if this is how it is.
10K nxt and you expect 'mining' reward? So you would invest less than a bitcoin in a PoW hardware and you would expect reward too?
Do I miss something?

I don't quite know how to get my point across on this issue without continually being accused of complaining about not getting rewarded personally.  

Bitcoin does not need a majority of holders to mine. Their network is secure as long as a small percentage of people engage in mining. They don't even have to be holding Bitcoin, they can dump it to  FIAT as soon as they get it. You can't tell people not to compare forging with mining and then turn around and do it yourself.

NXT as far as I understand it needs a larger percentage of it's userbase to be forging than bitcoin does or the network will be insecure.

If this is the case, then you are going to have to incentivize these holders or the wide majority of them will simply not forge (again, I'm not referring to myself, stay focused here) . They'll log in and out when they want to use it, if they decide to use NXT at all. These "little people" are going to be exposing their machine to a possible DDOS attack, have to run their computer 24/7 (Most people shut them off at night) and be giving up processing power they don't need to (someone who uses their computer for video editing wants to eliminate every unneeded MB CPU power)

I understand that there's nodecoin being created on top of the network, which I am hopeful will be enough to motivate the needed constituency to forge. My worry there is that 99% of potential NXT users might not bother with the AE or want to go to all that trouble. It sounds kinda like something just for the nerds to do & I want NXT to be for everyone, not just nerds and nerdtrepreneurs. ( and I use the term nerd endearingly, not as a pejorative)

So once again I am not bringing up this issue because I am dissatisfied with my return. I am thinking about the bigger picture in the future when everyday normal people will be using NXT. If the entire networks' survival depends on a certain percentage of these people to be forging then this FACT has to be taken into account when figuring out how to motivate just enough of them, preferably more than that, to contribute. It is a mathematical issue, not a financial one. The devs need to face the fact that 99% of people will follow the path of least resistance. If 99% of NXT users not forging is OK for the network to work then I am cool with it. If not then I think this issue needs to be taken a lot more seriously because the very survival of NXT just might depend on it.

In my opinion, you're better off dishing out smaller rewards at a faster pace. People are like lab rats who feel rewarded when they get a pellet. It would be better to get .001 NXT every couple of days than 10 NXT after many months. It is simple psychology. Almost every successful software "invention" these days is successful because it's addicting. Twitter, facebook, Angry Birds, Flappy Birds, Candy Crush, Farmville. All very successful and all very addicting. Give the people their pellets and they will forge.

I had an, albeit flawed, idea the other day about dividing the block reward 50/50 between the block forger and the other nodes online.  For example, let's say the block reward was 25 NXT.  The forging node would receive 12.5 NXT and all the other nodes on the network would split the other 12.5 NXT.  If there were one thousand nodes online, then they would each get 0.0125 NXT.

This was flawed because of the network topology issue of knowing which nodes are online.  The only work around I can think of is to keep a master list that is broadcast to every node which lists all the nodes seen online in the last 24 hours.  Then these nodes would be rewarded.

 
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March 08, 2014, 07:41:18 AM
 #41811

NXT as far as I understand it needs a larger percentage of it's userbase to be forging than bitcoin does or the network will be insecure.

Why? That doesn't even make sense.

I have been told by others here that this is the case. Think about it.  If small holders don't need to be forging, why even ask them to? Don't even make forging a selling point and just let the whales forge and protect their own network. I'm pretty sure that won't work, therefore it is a big problem that no one is taking seriously. edit: except CIYAM He has been putting a lot of thought into this and I REALLY appreciate him. and J77 (I think that's his nick) who is working on NODECOIN.

NXT: 4957831430947123625
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March 08, 2014, 07:45:27 AM
 #41812

Coinpayments is closing down: https://www.coinpayments.net

What was this site for?
Processing bitcoin payments. USA's FinCen says they have authority over bitcoin and any company that touches it is a money transmitter. Now bitcoin is as troublesome as fiat in America. Isnt America nice

So, now you need at least $5 million to operation in USA, before you can even start. maybe you can choose a few states to lower the compliance cost, but every state has their own rules, add the federal stuff on top and the war on bitcoin escalates.

James

Do you have a source for this? I'd like to read up.

http://www.fincen.gov/

Read especially:

http://www.fincen.gov/news_room/testimony/html/20140220.html

FinCEN getting involved in cryptocurrency is a huge blow to Bitcoin in the US and NXT as well.   If NXT implements NXTcash as a truly anonymous transfer service, we can expect FinCen to arrest James as a terrorist.

I am only partially joking.
will I get internet access from jail?

Internet no, a huuuuge asshole yes.


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pandaisftw
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March 08, 2014, 07:47:30 AM
 #41813

NXT as far as I understand it needs a larger percentage of it's userbase to be forging than bitcoin does or the network will be insecure.

Why? That doesn't even make sense.

I have been told by others here that this is the case. Think about it.  If small holders don't need to be forging, why even ask them to? Don't even make forging a selling point and just let the whales forge and protect their own network. I'm pretty sure that won't work, therefore it is a big problem that no one is taking seriously. edit: except CIYAM He has been putting a lot of thought into this and I REALLY appreciate him. and J77 (I think that's his nick) who is working on NODECOIN.

Well, it is Proof of Stake.

More nodes without stake/hallmarks = more protection against DDOS attacks, but not necessarily more security.

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Meizirkki
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March 08, 2014, 07:49:01 AM
 #41814

I agree that we already have the Alias system so there is no reason for an Asset to *have a name* at all (just a unique number should suffice - perhaps even issuing account # plus date).

+2
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March 08, 2014, 07:49:30 AM
 #41815

This was flawed because of the network topology issue of knowing which nodes are online.  The only work around I can think of is to keep a master list that is broadcast to every node which lists all the nodes seen online in the last 24 hours.  Then these nodes would be rewarded.

Unfortunately this also is flawed due to topology (it can't be checked).

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
Eadeqa
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March 08, 2014, 07:51:27 AM
 #41816

NXT as far as I understand it needs a larger percentage of it's userbase to be forging than bitcoin does or the network will be insecure.

Why? That doesn't even make sense.

I have been told by others here that this is the case. Think about it.  If small holders don't need to be forging, why even ask them to? Don't even make forging a selling point and just let the whales forge and protect their own network. I'm pretty sure that won't work, therefore it is a big problem that no one is taking seriously.

Where is that "big" problem?  I still don't gt it.

Why 100 to 500 forging accounts shouldn't be enough to secure the network?

NXT-GZYP-FMRT-FQ9K-3YQGS
https://nxtforum.org
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March 08, 2014, 07:53:35 AM
 #41817

The thing is: people wont see it as selling out. If Ethereum provides the best way for them to use Cryptos they have zero reason to think that Ethereum is any less "activist" than NXT.

They might not "see" it that way, but that is the way it is.  It is backed and run by people who for a living have controlled and undermined the economies and livelihoods of people all over the world.

NXT's top 60 accounts still have like 65% of all NXT and they paid 30-50-100 dollars for it.
It's not a healthy distribution at all because it means all the power is centralized.
You can make the argument (as I have in marketing situations) that Bitcoin's distribution is just as bad, but that's not really a great defense as Bitcoin was the first crypto, the first prototype. We came 5 years later and couldn't even get that right.
NEM will have a lot more incentive for newcomers.

You can't say that a lot of big holders are giving out bounties, they simply aren't.

That is capitalism and ROI.  That doesn't mean that power is centralized because you don't know the motives of the individuals that hold the currency.

I'm one of the biggest supporters of helping your fellow man.  Nothing in life is equal, but it should be fair.  NXT is fair.

Even Nem will not be fair or equal to 99.999999% percent of the world that isn't included in the genesis block.

Everyone had to purchase their NXT, but not everyone had to purchase their Nem.  Some people got their Nem for free.  Is that fair or equal?


If you have read JustaBits post you would know what I am referring to. A certain individual tried to discredit him and Nifty and ended up getting a lot of votes from it.
Another person went on a smearcampaign right before teh voting started.

All the message said was that marketing funds shouldn't be used on charity.

I agree with this.  We can't save the world.  It's terrible that there are children starving in a third world country, but guess what, there are starving children living on my block.  If people have economic freedom, they should be able to feed themselves, provided they are healthy and capable of work.

I didn't donate to "Songs of Love" because it's ridiculous.  There are millions of children who are sick.  Singing to them will do nothing.  How about trying to cure their illness.

Also, one of the singers was a stripper.  If I had a sick child, I would not want a "former" stripper singing to them.  I'm not going to support that garbage.  They couldn't find a better role model?  Seriously?

 
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March 08, 2014, 07:54:04 AM
 #41818

Usability is KING!

A visitor of Nextcoin.org tells about his experience and why Nxt is difficult to use for newbees. I totally agree with him, usability is more important than futuristic features. How can we solve this problem?

https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,4339.new.html


It can be resolved by integrating wesleyh client  with NRS and distributing it as simple executable application.

Or just use Marcus3 client that works without local copy of NRS

 

I have got some questions again from users at twitter how they can install the client. And how to install it on Mac. If I got instructions etc.

That is problem number 1. But we are working on it with Wesleyhs client. Integrating with the NRS client.

But we have also a big second problem like the other forum describes. Passwords.

Are we working on that either?

The usability of the client is the third problem. But we can fix that over time with instruction videos etc. I am going to try to make one also.

The first two problems we have to think and fix ASAP!

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March 08, 2014, 08:04:49 AM
 #41819

Usability is KING!

A visitor of Nextcoin.org tells about his experience and why Nxt is difficult to use for newbees. I totally agree with him, usability is more important than futuristic features. How can we solve this problem?

https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,4339.new.html


It can be resolved by integrating wesleyh client  with NRS and distributing it as simple executable application.

Or just use Marcus3 client that works without local copy of NRS

 

I have got some questions again from users at twitter how they can install the client. And how to install it on Mac. If I got instructions etc.

That is problem number 1. But we are working on it with Wesleyhs client. Integrating with the NRS client.

But we have also a big second problem like the other forum describes. Passwords.

Are we working on that either?

The usability of the client is the third problem. But we can fix that over time with instruction videos etc.

The first two problems we have to think and fix ASAP!

All  clients should have password management system.  The client should generate cryptographically secure passwords and save them on hard disk in wallet.dat  encrypted with AES.  The user provides the password for encryption and that password doesn't need to be that strong.


I have said that many times before. Nxt is insecure for general public without password management implemented  within client.
 

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March 08, 2014, 08:04:54 AM
Last edit: March 08, 2014, 08:37:08 AM by BrianNowhere
 #41820

What if we only can lease a maximum of 50% of our nxt forging power (or x% amount)? This would help get a low standard deviation for forging fee while if someone want its full forging power for all his nxt, he would still have to run a node.

You are assuming it was "part of the plan" to have a very large number of people running nodes.

The "plan" as far I as understand it now was to have a relatively small number of "super nodes" controlling the network.

The vision of Nxt is/was really to compete with Ripple rather than with anything else.


Damn I knew it. I have been using both and they are very similar, except RIPPLE has instant transactions, cross currency trading (not just XRP to whatever) and no one is asked to run a node or forge. NXT RIPPLE  is less centralized ( at this point) but the jury is still out in my mind whether this is a good or bad thing or whether pure decentralization will matter that much in the end. NXT has to compete on features, not ideology.

NXT: 4957831430947123625
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