Devcoin

[jasinlee]

If getting it done is time sensitive, with the rate of growth in receiver lines may work better with an actual dvc bounty rather than propective shares. If so I'd be willing to chip in for that to get something decent made (if anyone has experience in that area).

Does anyone here have experience in this area. Video editing or animation or cinematography?

[marticps]

I've got some experience with flash animation, but no proffessional one. It will suppose a lot of work to do something decent... and for a 15 min animation there are work for hours and days.

[K1773R]

I've no aggression to the writers, but just want to make our community to notice this thing, is devtome more important than open source developers? I'd suggest some way, e.g. to limit the shares on devtome not exceed the half of whole shares, or as others said, use read times or vote links, instead of just words to distribute shares. just some random thoughts, not thinking very carefully, and forgive my english for I'm not native speaker.

I agree 100%. Unthinkingbit and other administrators: is there a way we can make some decision on this?

agree, though id say 1/4 is enough.
Devcoin is about DEVeloping, maintaining a wiki dosnt really count to developing

[Vlad2Vlad]

I just checked and looks like I should be entitled to be in the Bitcoin dev list as I'm actively developping pywallet again for more than 2 months. I'm not sure I'd receive anything from that though with all the writing shares.
That's not a problem though as it's Unthinkingbit's coin and it's normal he chooses the priority. But whatever the priority is (writing/developping/other), I'd just like it to be stated clearly

Hey jackjack, I'm in charge of adding people to the developer share lists. Here are some general guidelines on whether or not you would be eligible: http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=devcoin#developer

The best way to see if you qualify to be on the list is to PM me or post a link to the project thread. If you have 10 posts a month from users, then the project is definitely popular enough to be included. My instinct is that pywallet will qualify easily. I know I've used it in the last month, and I'm guessing so have several others in this thread.

I've no aggression to the writers, but just want to make our community to notice this thing, is devtome more important than open source developers? I'd suggest some way, e.g. to limit the shares on devtome not exceed the half of whole shares, or as others said, use read times or vote links, instead of just words to distribute shares. just some random thoughts, not thinking very carefully, and forgive my english for I'm not native speaker.

I agree 100%. Unthinkingbit and other administrators: is there a way we can make some decision on this?

I think pageviews are the best solution.  It's good enough for advertisers to pay big money for page views so why not devtome.  That way if an article is not popular there will be little pay so people will be forced to write better quality or quit. 

This sounds fair enough where having someone judge each article won't be fair as writing is subjective.  Let the masses decide what's good and popular and pay out accordingly. 

[Vlad2Vlad]

I've no aggression to the writers, but just want to make our community to notice this thing, is devtome more important than open source developers? I'd suggest some way, e.g. to limit the shares on devtome not exceed the half of whole shares, or as others said, use read times or vote links, instead of just words to distribute shares. just some random thoughts, not thinking very carefully, and forgive my english for I'm not native speaker.

I agree 100%. Unthinkingbit and other administrators: is there a way we can make some decision on this?

agree, though id say 1/4 is enough.
Devcoin is about DEVeloping, maintaining a wiki dosnt really count to developing

Without awareness and POPularity all the DEVeloping in the world will fall flat on its face.

Writers should get paid per quality and the best way is to measure quality the way advertisers and google pay and get paid for ads and that is hits or page-views.

I know unthinkingbit said last month there was a program almost ready to be used for this.  This will ensure that people will write quality work or quit.  It is the most fair way of doing things.

[jasinlee]

I've got some experience with flash animation, but no proffessional one. It will suppose a lot of work to do something decent... and for a 15 min animation there are work for hours and days.

Well try and give me an estimate if you can so we can set a bounty.

[ranlo]

I've no aggression to the writers, but just want to make our community to notice this thing, is devtome more important than open source developers? I'd suggest some way, e.g. to limit the shares on devtome not exceed the half of whole shares, or as others said, use read times or vote links, instead of just words to distribute shares. just some random thoughts, not thinking very carefully, and forgive my english for I'm not native speaker.

I agree 100%. Unthinkingbit and other administrators: is there a way we can make some decision on this?

agree, though id say 1/4 is enough.
Devcoin is about DEVeloping, maintaining a wiki dosnt really count to developing

Without awareness and POPularity all the DEVeloping in the world will fall flat on its face.

Writers should get paid per quality and the best way is to measure quality the way advertisers and google pay and get paid for ads and that is hits or page-views.

I know unthinkingbit said last month there was a program almost ready to be used for this.  This will ensure that people will write quality work or quit.  It is the most fair way of doing things.

Going based on hits/views is one of the easiest systems to manipulate (exploit). I am 100% against this.

[K1773R]

I've no aggression to the writers, but just want to make our community to notice this thing, is devtome more important than open source developers? I'd suggest some way, e.g. to limit the shares on devtome not exceed the half of whole shares, or as others said, use read times or vote links, instead of just words to distribute shares. just some random thoughts, not thinking very carefully, and forgive my english for I'm not native speaker.

I agree 100%. Unthinkingbit and other administrators: is there a way we can make some decision on this?

agree, though id say 1/4 is enough.
Devcoin is about DEVeloping, maintaining a wiki dosnt really count to developing

Without awareness and POPularity all the DEVeloping in the world will fall flat on its face.

Writers should get paid per quality and the best way is to measure quality the way advertisers and google pay and get paid for ads and that is hits or page-views.

I know unthinkingbit said last month there was a program almost ready to be used for this.  This will ensure that people will write quality work or quit.  It is the most fair way of doing things.

Going based on hits/views is one of the easiest systems to manipulate (exploit). I am 100% against this.

agree

[Unthinkingbit]

Also sadly, it seems that the original goal of paying for open source development is falling to the wayside as well, as the value of shares plummets. I was thinking about trying for the forum bounty (still might when I'm done with finals), but at this point, 12 shares for all that work seems like nothing compared to the hundreds of shares people are getting for writing.

I have totally the same feeling! I've been busy recently and planned to hold some of my developing activities on till mid-June, such as adding bitcointalk feature of the devcoin faucet, and a btc-dvc-accepting gamble site, and probably a new exchange, etc. but when I back, I checked the shares for round 24 and found there's nearly a thousand, good, I thought, we have more new developers... but holy shit, most of them are writers for devtome! Does we devcoin is DEVcoin but not WRITEcoin ? could we have more sane way to promote devtome and not destroy the developer community? I feel despire, 'cause no matter how hard of my work, I just get 2 or 6 or 12 shares, from those develop work, but those writers could easily write 12000 word at 2 or 3 nights and get the same.
..

Because of share inflation, I suggest doubling all bounties which have not been awarded even in part, administration, and maintenance. Also anyone on the bitcoin share list or devcoin share list would get double marketing earnings to reward popular projects. Finally the administration cap would be increased to 9% from 7%, because the current and future administrators found cases of undeserved devtome earnings which in total saved more money than the administrators received. Any objections, or should something be changed?

Also, I'm adding six million of my coins to the coinzen bounty, and two million to Emfox's bitcointalk faucet upgrade.

Because the devcoin value is low, I removed the offer of help for new businesses from the devcoin introduction:
http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=devcoin#devcoin_official_site

Business help will be added back if the devcoin value goes over 0.3$/KDVC.

Even with these changes, writers will still get most of the devcoins. The software developers make devcoin and related projects, however devtome makes the potential revenue, which will boost the value of each devcoin. It's like in a game of civilization where you make trade routes, which boosts revenue, which enables you to pay for research.

[Vlad2Vlad]

I've no aggression to the writers, but just want to make our community to notice this thing, is devtome more important than open source developers? I'd suggest some way, e.g. to limit the shares on devtome not exceed the half of whole shares, or as others said, use read times or vote links, instead of just words to distribute shares. just some random thoughts, not thinking very carefully, and forgive my english for I'm not native speaker.

I agree 100%. Unthinkingbit and other administrators: is there a way we can make some decision on this?

agree, though id say 1/4 is enough.
Devcoin is about DEVeloping, maintaining a wiki dosnt really count to developing

Without awareness and POPularity all the DEVeloping in the world will fall flat on its face.

Writers should get paid per quality and the best way is to measure quality the way advertisers and google pay and get paid for ads and that is hits or page-views.

I know unthinkingbit said last month there was a program almost ready to be used for this.  This will ensure that people will write quality work or quit.  It is the most fair way of doing things.

Going based on hits/views is one of the easiest systems to manipulate (exploit). I am 100% against this.

How is that?  I mean, isn't this how google gets paid?  Are advertisers that dumb?  I presumed if it was good enough for google and billion dollar advertisers it would be good enough for devtome and devcoin.  Or is there something in addition which google employs to ensure there's no manipulation?  

Anybody know how google does it to keep it fair and keep bots out?  TIA.

[Unthinkingbit]

..
The simplest way is to switch to writing shares based on visitors. By definition if you have readers you have been doing some promotion. Writers of fantasy and fan fiction can promote on those dedicated forums. Article writers can try to get their pages ranked on Google, to get search traffic, and so on.

I guess there's no hurry to change the share model because the advertising network hasn't been developed yet. But the issue of visitors will become an issue once it does.

I am planning on paying more for popular articles, however I don't have page view information to work with and I don't know when I'll have it.

..
Going based on hits/views is one of the easiest systems to manipulate (exploit). I am 100% against this.

I know fake page views can be made, but that would be blatant fraud. There have been several cases of undeserved earnings, but as far as I know, no intentional fraud. If there was fraud, hopefully we would detect it.

In the long term, I hope we could afford a bounty to develop a page level version of Alexa, which would be harder to manipulate.

[worldinacoin]

I think you can consider putting Adsense onto the pages of Devtome and start monetizing it?

[ranlo]

I've no aggression to the writers, but just want to make our community to notice this thing, is devtome more important than open source developers? I'd suggest some way, e.g. to limit the shares on devtome not exceed the half of whole shares, or as others said, use read times or vote links, instead of just words to distribute shares. just some random thoughts, not thinking very carefully, and forgive my english for I'm not native speaker.

I agree 100%. Unthinkingbit and other administrators: is there a way we can make some decision on this?

agree, though id say 1/4 is enough.
Devcoin is about DEVeloping, maintaining a wiki dosnt really count to developing

Without awareness and POPularity all the DEVeloping in the world will fall flat on its face.

Writers should get paid per quality and the best way is to measure quality the way advertisers and google pay and get paid for ads and that is hits or page-views.

I know unthinkingbit said last month there was a program almost ready to be used for this.  This will ensure that people will write quality work or quit.  It is the most fair way of doing things.

Going based on hits/views is one of the easiest systems to manipulate (exploit). I am 100% against this.

How is that?  I mean, isn't this how google gets paid?  Are advertisers that dumb?  I presumed if it was good enough for google and billion dollar advertisers it would be good enough for devtome and devcoin.  Or is there something in addition which google employs to ensure there's no manipulation?  

Anybody know how google does it to keep it fair and keep bots out?  TIA.

Google pays based on a CPC rate;  not CPM. Meaning they pay only if someone clicks. Furthermore, they analyze each click to see how the user responds to the advertiser's page, as well as their IP and some other criteria, to ensure that the click was not forced and was a legitimate person wanting to see what the advertiser had to offer. Even with all of this in place, Adsense has a fraud rate of over 40%.

I really don't want to go into more details about how all of it works, but suffice it to say that unless there are a lot of criteria searched for, the number of views (raw or unique) is too easy to manipulate for it to be any good.

I'd also argue that the number of views does not indicate the quality of the content regardless. There are sites that get 500 views a month using spammy methods that are earning $5k+ a month, where others get 100k+ views a month and earn less than $10. Why? Because the 500 views may be based on certain niches that pay upwards of $80 a click, whereas the other, while more popular, is not able to be monetized due to different content and what advertisers are looking for.

[alyssa85]

I've no aggression to the writers, but just want to make our community to notice this thing, is devtome more important than open source developers? I'd suggest some way, e.g. to limit the shares on devtome not exceed the half of whole shares, or as others said, use read times or vote links, instead of just words to distribute shares. just some random thoughts, not thinking very carefully, and forgive my english for I'm not native speaker.

I agree 100%. Unthinkingbit and other administrators: is there a way we can make some decision on this?

agree, though id say 1/4 is enough.
Devcoin is about DEVeloping, maintaining a wiki dosnt really count to developing

Without awareness and POPularity all the DEVeloping in the world will fall flat on its face.

Writers should get paid per quality and the best way is to measure quality the way advertisers and google pay and get paid for ads and that is hits or page-views.

I know unthinkingbit said last month there was a program almost ready to be used for this.  This will ensure that people will write quality work or quit.  It is the most fair way of doing things.

Going based on hits/views is one of the easiest systems to manipulate (exploit). I am 100% against this.

How is that?  I mean, isn't this how google gets paid?  Are advertisers that dumb?  I presumed if it was good enough for google and billion dollar advertisers it would be good enough for devtome and devcoin.  Or is there something in addition which google employs to ensure there's no manipulation?  

Anybody know how google does it to keep it fair and keep bots out?  TIA.

They judge from a mix of referrals (eg they can see if a page was referred from a link in the search engines or a link from another site such as facebook, reddit or a forum - bots don't show referrals as no cookie drops) and whether a browser was used, plus they know the ips of most of the bots (they've had to learn to stop their Adsense advertisers getting exploited) and automatically exclude them. That's why if you install Google analytics, the number of hits shown is way less (as in about just 10%) of the hits shown in your cpanel. That's because your cpanel is logging everything, bots and all, and Google Analytics is excluding bots.

One solution: just install Adsense on Devtome - that way Google decides the impressions and clicks, based on their vast experience, they'll pay in fiat, which can be used to buy Devcoins to distribute, which should help keep the price stable.

[alyssa85]

I'd also argue that the number of views does not indicate the quality of the content regardless. There are sites that get 500 views a month using spammy methods that are earning $5k+ a month, where others get 100k+ views a month and earn less than $10. Why? Because the 500 views may be based on certain niches that pay upwards of $80 a click, whereas the other, while more popular, is not able to be monetized due to different content and what advertisers are looking for.

In other words the market is paying more for some things than others in the same way a ball point pen costs less than an iPad! No-one is arguing that a ballpoint pen should be priced the same as an ipad, so why argue that two pieces of content should be priced the same when their value to their audiences is different?

If Devcoin is going to get into advertising, people are going to have get to grips with different prices for different niches.

[ranlo]

I'd also argue that the number of views does not indicate the quality of the content regardless. There are sites that get 500 views a month using spammy methods that are earning $5k+ a month, where others get 100k+ views a month and earn less than $10. Why? Because the 500 views may be based on certain niches that pay upwards of $80 a click, whereas the other, while more popular, is not able to be monetized due to different content and what advertisers are looking for.

In other words the market is paying more for some things than others in the same way a ball point pen costs less than an iPad! No=one is arguing that a ballpoint pen should be priced the same as an ipad, so why argue that two pieces of content should be priced the same when their value to their audiences is different?

If Devcoin is going to get into advertising, people are going to have get to grips with different prices for different niches.

Devcoin is about benefiting people for the work they do; not how much one person may think it is worth.

[ranlo]

Also, to clarify something else... ad CTR is usually based more on the advertiser themselves than anyone else. If two advertisers create their ads, they will have different CTR's, even when on the same content. There have been ads that run a 0.00% CTR because they flat out suck, and others than convert 10%+. When you bring revenue into this as part of determining how much each writer's "value" is, you're not only basing it on THEIR work, but also the advertisers', something the writer has absolutely no control over.

[Vlad2Vlad]

Also, to clarify something else... ad CTR is usually based more on the advertiser themselves than anyone else. If two advertisers create their ads, they will have different CTR's, even when on the same content. There have been ads that run a 0.00% CTR because they flat out suck, and others than convert 10%+. When you bring revenue into this as part of determining how much each writer's "value" is, you're not only basing it on THEIR work, but also the advertisers', something the writer has absolutely no control over.

Man, this is going to be a real dilemma to solve as writers (and other types of contributors) will keep growing at a most likely exponential rate.  Round 22 had roughly 122 shares, round 23 had 501 shares and now we at around 1,000.

That's exponential so the question is will there be a slowdown now cause the value has gotten so low or can we expect roughly 2,000 shares for round 25?

[Luckybit]

Also sadly, it seems that the original goal of paying for open source development is falling to the wayside as well, as the value of shares plummets. I was thinking about trying for the forum bounty (still might when I'm done with finals), but at this point, 12 shares for all that work seems like nothing compared to the hundreds of shares people are getting for writing.

I have totally the same feeling! I've been busy recently and planned to hold some of my developing activities on till mid-June, such as adding bitcointalk feature of the devcoin faucet, and a btc-dvc-accepting gamble site, and probably a new exchange, etc. but when I back, I checked the shares for round 24 and found there's nearly a thousand, good, I thought, we have more new developers... but holy shit, most of them are writers for devtome! Does we devcoin is DEVcoin but not WRITEcoin ? could we have more sane way to promote devtome and not destroy the developer community? I feel despire, 'cause no matter how hard of my work, I just get 2 or 6 or 12 shares, from those develop work, but those writers could easily write 12000 word at 2 or 3 nights and get the same.

I've no aggression to the writers, but just want to make our community to notice this thing, is devtome more important than open source developers? I'd suggest some way, e.g. to limit the shares on devtome not exceed the half of whole shares, or as others said, use read times or vote links, instead of just words to distribute shares. just some random thoughts, not thinking very carefully, and forgive my english for I'm not native speaker.

In terms of economic activity neither is more important. Those writers will have to spend their Devcoins or Bitcoins on something which improves the economy for everyone including developers. The problems with Devcoin are with the math behind it. There is infinitely many Devcoins but finite shares and a decreasing share value over time. It's broken by math and anyone can see it. If you're writing and over time the worth keeps doing down faster this would be fine if it was very slow and there were thousands or millions of articles on Devtome but right now there are maybe hundreds to a few thousand articles on Devtome but the pay is decreasing way too fast.


Basically you need both millions of articles on Devtome (writing is very important because eventually this kind of writing will fund journalism and world class literature which is just as important as programming).

But it should not be at the expense of photographers, musicians, programmers, etc. Everyone should be able to make plenty of shares and plenty of Bitcoins worth for their time or the system is broken by design. The reason it's broken by the design is the people who design it claim when too many people write that people will stop writing, as if they thought only people from the same middle class western background as them would write, and the same with programmers, eventually you'll have to compete with Chinese and Indian programmers and you'll not be able to compete.

The flaw with Devcoin is because there is infinitely many it's so inflationary that you cannot save your Devcoins from work you did months ago so that you can be competitive with workers 10 months from now, but instead 10 months from now you'll have to work even harder for even less coins? That is basically all that is wrong with the fiat currencies and it's adopted into Devcoin.

Devcoin is going to have to be replaced by something better, there is no alternative that I can see. It's time for a hard fork of Devcoin.

[Luckybit]

I just checked and looks like I should be entitled to be in the Bitcoin dev list as I'm actively developping pywallet again for more than 2 months. I'm not sure I'd receive anything from that though with all the writing shares.
That's not a problem though as it's Unthinkingbit's coin and it's normal he chooses the priority. But whatever the priority is (writing/developping/other), I'd just like it to be stated clearly

Hey jackjack, I'm in charge of adding people to the developer share lists. Here are some general guidelines on whether or not you would be eligible: http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=devcoin#developer

The best way to see if you qualify to be on the list is to PM me or post a link to the project thread. If you have 10 posts a month from users, then the project is definitely popular enough to be included. My instinct is that pywallet will qualify easily. I know I've used it in the last month, and I'm guessing so have several others in this thread.

I've no aggression to the writers, but just want to make our community to notice this thing, is devtome more important than open source developers? I'd suggest some way, e.g. to limit the shares on devtome not exceed the half of whole shares, or as others said, use read times or vote links, instead of just words to distribute shares. just some random thoughts, not thinking very carefully, and forgive my english for I'm not native speaker.

I agree 100%. Unthinkingbit and other administrators: is there a way we can make some decision on this?

I think pageviews are the best solution.  It's good enough for advertisers to pay big money for page views so why not devtome.  That way if an article is not popular there will be little pay so people will be forced to write better quality or quit.  

This sounds fair enough where having someone judge each article won't be fair as writing is subjective.  Let the masses decide what's good and popular and pay out accordingly.  

This is good but there still has to be some minimum amount of pay for writers. Not every article is going to be popular with the masses but it could be extremely important. When Satoshi wrote the whitepaper it wasn't initially popular either as it wasn't on any mainstream journal.

Also sadly, it seems that the original goal of paying for open source development is falling to the wayside as well, as the value of shares plummets. I was thinking about trying for the forum bounty (still might when I'm done with finals), but at this point, 12 shares for all that work seems like nothing compared to the hundreds of shares people are getting for writing.

I have totally the same feeling! I've been busy recently and planned to hold some of my developing activities on till mid-June, such as adding bitcointalk feature of the devcoin faucet, and a btc-dvc-accepting gamble site, and probably a new exchange, etc. but when I back, I checked the shares for round 24 and found there's nearly a thousand, good, I thought, we have more new developers... but holy shit, most of them are writers for devtome! Does we devcoin is DEVcoin but not WRITEcoin ? could we have more sane way to promote devtome and not destroy the developer community? I feel despire, 'cause no matter how hard of my work, I just get 2 or 6 or 12 shares, from those develop work, but those writers could easily write 12000 word at 2 or 3 nights and get the same.
..

Because of share inflation, I suggest doubling all bounties which have not been awarded even in part, administration, and maintenance. Also anyone on the bitcoin share list or devcoin share list would get double marketing earnings to reward popular projects. Finally the administration cap would be increased to 9% from 7%, because the current and future administrators found cases of undeserved devtome earnings which in total saved more money than the administrators received. Any objections, or should something be changed?

Also, I'm adding six million of my coins to the coinzen bounty, and two million to Emfox's bitcointalk faucet upgrade.

Because the devcoin value is low, I removed the offer of help for new businesses from the devcoin introduction:
http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=devcoin#devcoin_official_site

Business help will be added back if the devcoin value goes over 0.3$/KDVC.

Even with these changes, writers will still get most of the devcoins. The software developers make devcoin and related projects, however devtome makes the potential revenue, which will boost the value of each devcoin. It's like in a game of civilization where you make trade routes, which boosts revenue, which enables you to pay for research.

Who says the programmer can't also write on Devtome? I don't understand why we have to even have this separation. If the programmer uploads their whitepaper to Devtome this is very good for Devtome but technical enough as well. A lot of programmers will have good ideas but not have the time to code them, which means Devtome could be the place to upload whitepapers and get some Bitcoins for sharing the good idea and let some other programmers collect the bounty to program it.

In this way writers and programmers could have a symbiotic relationship. I still don't see how Devcoin math is going to work though. Like I said, in the long term the cheapest workers will be in the third world whether writer, programmer, developer, it does not matter. This means Devcoin is going to have the same problems fiat currencies have with quality being sacrificed and work being outsourced for cheaper and cheaper.

Also, to clarify something else... ad CTR is usually based more on the advertiser themselves than anyone else. If two advertisers create their ads, they will have different CTR's, even when on the same content. There have been ads that run a 0.00% CTR because they flat out suck, and others than convert 10%+. When you bring revenue into this as part of determining how much each writer's "value" is, you're not only basing it on THEIR work, but also the advertisers', something the writer has absolutely no control over.

Man, this is going to be a real dilemma to solve as writers (and other types of contributors) will keep growing at a most likely exponential rate.  Round 22 had roughly 122 shares, round 23 had 501 shares and now we at around 1,000.

That's exponential so the question is will there be a slowdown now cause the value has gotten so low or can we expect roughly 2,000 shares for round 25?

According to my calculations it will continue at an exponential rate and get this, as Bitcoin becomes more popular and gains more exposure that rate will become even more exponential. I think it's time for a complete redesign of Devcoin, a hard fork is the only viable option.