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Author Topic: [ANN] Ethereum: Welcome to the Beginning  (Read 1411650 times)
mehransaam
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January 26, 2014, 07:21:26 AM
 #341

I'm a very procedural programmer, so I am having trouble wrapping my head around your contracts system because it seems to be very abstract.

Can you please explain in more detail (preferably with an example) of how to make a useful contract in more of a real world scenario? Since it obviously can't do anything useful inside the ethereum network without also communicating outside of the network?

If it snows more than 2 inches on thursday or Friday, buy two lift tickets for Saturday at the ski resort.

If my favorite sports team wins the wednesday game, buy 2 tickets in Section C rows 10-16 for the friday game.

If a samsung galaxy tab 2 is offered at ebay for < $x, buy it. 


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cybnate26
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January 26, 2014, 07:26:57 AM
 #342

Posts about Ethereum will be flagged as off topic. This thread is to discuss public sanitation in restrooms and feces masking as flatulence.

 Grin Thank you was waiting for someone to bring back some sanity into this, sidetracking the subject into Proof of Work while we were clearly speaking of Proof Of Steak and the aftermath. Thanks Leo.

So what does PoS stand for?
Someone was having their dinner  Cheesy

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cybnate26
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January 26, 2014, 07:33:08 AM
 #343


So is the whole entire blockchain working to do this one thing, or can it do more? With Ethereum, creating a distributed dropbox is easy, and you can do a thousand other things too. Name coin, for instance, can be done with 5 lines of code on Ethereum. Do you think there is a way that peercoin can integrate with Ethereum?
Technically I suspect it can, not sure it that would be a wise move though. You could also set up contracts based on Peercoins as underlying value in Ethereum, that would be more attractive IMHO.

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January 26, 2014, 07:54:33 AM
 #344

Mining starts after iPo or along side with iPo?

After
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January 26, 2014, 08:26:47 AM
 #345

I'm curious as to why ETH should fetch a large value. Bitcoin has value because it is explicitly a store of value, as well as a payment system. Transfer fees are pretty much insignificant (cents). Ethereum's value only comes from it's ability to run decentralized Turing-complete code. Since you're paying per execution, most people will actually want the value of ETH to be low as possible, so they can execute their programs as cheaply as possible. This will lead to people rapidly dumping when they feel the price is too high, and sitting on the sidelines to wait until prices are reasonable and then buy in and quickly run their scripts at a cheaper price. Or, more likely, most people won't hold ETH at all, and only buy in a small amount at market price to cover the cost of whatever script they need to run. Large initial inflation combined with no software running on the network in the beginning will mean ETH effectively won't have any intrinsic value until the first programs are released. Any rises in value after the IPO and before the release of programs will be purely speculative.

Then comes the issue of copycats. Unless the developers put safeguards in place to prevent programs on the ETH network being able to run on Cheaper-ETH network, what's to stop someone from creating a copy and convincing everyone to move their programs over due to attractive low fees that is bound to attract an exponentially larger userbase?

Lastly, while it may seem the developer's interests are aligned with the project with their 50% premine, this is not particularly true. They are basically making investors pay for their 50% ETH. So they have no incentive to preserve it's value. Whatever value they dump it at, it will be 100% pure profit on top of the millions in USD they get.

They are also paying roughly 500 BTC for someone to develop a client(s)? Seems like excessive spending, IMO.

All of these factors make ETH an extremely unattractive investment to make. Sure, some people believe in the idea behind it. But the fact is that if there is no incentive to balance out the huge risk investors are taking, then they won't take the risk.

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January 26, 2014, 08:56:51 AM
 #346

I'm curious as to why ETH should fetch a large value. Bitcoin has value because it is explicitly a store of value, as well as a payment system. Transfer fees are pretty much insignificant (cents). Ethereum's value only comes from it's ability to run decentralized Turing-complete code. Since you're paying per execution, most people will actually want the value of ETH to be low as possible, so they can execute their programs as cheaply as possible. This will lead to people rapidly dumping when they feel the price is too high, and sitting on the sidelines to wait until prices are reasonable and then buy in and quickly run their scripts at a cheaper price. Or, more likely, most people won't hold ETH at all, and only buy in a small amount at market price to cover the cost of whatever script they need to run. Large initial inflation combined with no software running on the network in the beginning will mean ETH effectively won't have any intrinsic value until the first programs are released. Any rises in value after the IPO and before the release of programs will be purely speculative.

See http://ethereum.org/ethereum.html#p5
Quote
The coefficients will be revised as more hard data on the relative computational cost of each operation becomes available. The hardest part will be setting the value of x. There are currently two main solutions that we are considering:

Make x inversely proportional to the square root of the difficulty, so x = floor(10^21 / floor(difficulty ^ 0.5)). This automatically adjusts fees down as the value of ether goes up, and adjusts fees down as computers get more powerful due to Moore's Law.
Use proof of stake voting to determine the fees. In theory, stakeholders do not benefit directly from fees going up or down, so their incentives would be to make the decision that would maximize the value of the network.
A hybrid solution is also possible, using proof of stake voting, but with the inverse square root mechanism as an initial policy.

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January 26, 2014, 09:12:38 AM
 #347

I'm willing to invest in ether, but I'm hoping you guys have some marketing specialists to bring this to the masses since I (an electrical engineer) can't even follow all of this after the first view/read through.   I know it sucks but you have to find a way to communicate what exactly this is to the masses.  The facebook to bitcoin's myspace is a good start.

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January 26, 2014, 09:13:31 AM
 #348

You two keep hamming it away with each other, Personally I think both of you are a complete joke.  Anybody who hassles people for questioning the legitimacy of requesting 36 million online from complete strangers is either getting paid as a shill by the company or has no sense of reality.

You have to be fuckin absolutey living in a bubble for hassling people that are questioning the legality of a totally strange entity asking strangers on the internet based off a youtube ad to invest up to 36 million.  Why dont you sell your home and car and give them all of your own money before asking the bitcoin community to give them 36 million upfront with no risk.  LMAO you are classic, you must think everyone on here is dumb that questions their motives.  I think its the exact opposite.

Please leave. There is no value to your existence.
Why don't you leave?  What kind of idiot encourages people to invest millions based off a youtube ad?  What is the harm in demanding more transparency and compliance with regulations?  Do you buy a used car without checking the  the engine or if a guy tries to sell you a diamond on the street do you immediately pay him based on his looks?  I highly doubt it, even small investments you would take the time to check it out before you handed over a single dollar.  And here you are apparently advocating everyone in the bitcoin community to give these guys millions with zero transparency or insurance that they are in compliance with  laws. So if for some reason they disappear once the money is transferred what then?  You and everyone will start crying because you didn't realize what you were getting in to. ARe you going to guarantee everyone's money with your pitiful life savings?   Not going to happen to you right?  Sure when its not your fracking money what do you care?  But if you you were going to buy anything worth of any remote value you would make sure that you are not getting scammed.  In a public forum where your money is not at risk, now its ok to just plow million into this entity with absolutely no assurance of whats going on?  Hypocrite, lets see you do this type of business deal everyday in your business life.  You dont fukin care right now and talk shit because it wont be your money and if you do, it will be a small negligible amount.

Edit: read your previous posts, now it all makes sense.  You have a vested interest in this coin succeeding.  No wonder you made that comment.  Only a shill or someone with principal interest would damn someone for questioning why there isn't more transparency for an entity asking for 36 million from internet strangers.

They are NXTers. And low tier to boot.  They are followers; you can't expect them to question authority.
I for one thank you for wording my doubts.

30,000 BTC or 300 BTC, does not matter - there is no wrong question when you're asking other people's money.
but if you're dealing with 30,000 BTC, no stone should be left unturned within legal and contractual framework.

LOL at all these requests. Here the disclaimer comes first. I am not investing a single cent in Ethereum for some other reasons. But

You guys are clueless about Bitcoin and crypto movements in general. Crypto movements  are grey areas, if the government understand them a bit more they will probably ban them outright. So you are pretty much on your own because you cant request them to provide you the impossible. If in the future Ethereum, and also NXT prove to be viable and working well; then all current fundraising, IPO laws, financial regulations, capital movement restrictions are  going to be re-written. If these laws hold strong, then that would mean all of these protocols will be banned. Either ways anything you are requesting now will be useless.

First rule of crypto invseting: only invest what you can afford to lose.

 Oh great thanks for clarifying things, if you say it, it must be true.  Believe it or not, there are rules governing crowdfundraising 36 million dollars.  Just because they are not complying doesn't mean they are acting legally.  And so nice of you to let everyone know you will nothing to do with this coin, but oh yea go ahead and invest as much money as you want because buyer beware.  That's not how it works in the financial community, It's follow all regulations according to your federal law regarding crowd fundraising, file the appropriate documents, get verified and bonded and then release full disclosure transparency to all interested investors.  They lost their small time, we are just coin devs privilege once they decided to fundraise 36 million dollars.  Now, yes they can skirt the laws and unless someone actually starts an investigation, they can get away with it.  But believe me, if they did not follow proper procedure and someone loses even a bit of money they can get sued or shut down by the government, doesn't matter what country they operate out of.  That's why anyone thinking of investing a sizeable amount should think twice before investing a dime presale.  If they get shut down, guess who is long gone with their bitcoins.  So yea you are proving my point, buyer beware, but if some strangers are asking  you for 36 million and a pot of gold, dont you think it would be prudent to ask for due diligence?  Is everyone so blinded that they are just willing to ignore a simple principle to trust but verify?  Sick people.


I am not saying anything about valuation of Ethereum. What I say mainly is about the nature of crypto industry which I think Satoshi, Sunny King and BCNext understand well but not the guys from Mastercoin, Protoshares, Emuine and Ethereum. This basis only is enough for me to not invest in these ventures regardless of the valuations.

@nesco1805 : No I am not confused about securities and crypto; Mastercoin, Protoshares, Emuine and Ethereum guys are confused between these two concepts; and you and gutshot5820 confuse yourself because you think these guys are not confused. 

  
Exactly this!

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langkeming
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January 26, 2014, 09:15:47 AM
 #349

it is not a IPO, it is a gambling.
good luck
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January 26, 2014, 09:16:41 AM
 #350


They are NXTers. And low tier to boot.  They are followers; you can't expect them to question authority.
I for one thank you for wording my doubts.

30,000 BTC or 300 BTC, does not matter - there is no wrong question when you're asking other people's money.
but if you're dealing with 30,000 BTC, no stone should be left unturned within legal and contractual framework.

Actually, most Ether followers hate Nxt.  Nxt had an IPO of 21 BTC (1 BTC was from the founder).  The creator (BCNext) didn't allow anyone to invest more than 1BTC.  Most people were skeptical, called it a scam, so they didn't invest and he launched Nxt.  Then everyone screamed that the distribution was unfair and they didn't have enough time to invest.  Personally, I don't like large public IPO's for crypto's, it's lame, if it's POW, it should be launched for free and mined.  POS is tricky, because it has to be launched all at once, I don't think any POS will have a small IPO after Nxt.  Regardless, I'll avoid Ether, it's going to be killed by greed.
Vitalik hates NXT - nothing ever mentioned by him or his magazine about it. He pretends as if it non exists!
Go figure...
 Cheesy

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January 26, 2014, 09:26:33 AM
 #351

I'm curious as to why ETH should fetch a large value. Bitcoin has value because it is explicitly a store of value, as well as a payment system. Transfer fees are pretty much insignificant (cents). Ethereum's value only comes from it's ability to run decentralized Turing-complete code. Since you're paying per execution, most people will actually want the value of ETH to be low as possible, so they can execute their programs as cheaply as possible. This will lead to people rapidly dumping when they feel the price is too high, and sitting on the sidelines to wait until prices are reasonable and then buy in and quickly run their scripts at a cheaper price. Or, more likely, most people won't hold ETH at all, and only buy in a small amount at market price to cover the cost of whatever script they need to run. Large initial inflation combined with no software running on the network in the beginning will mean ETH effectively won't have any intrinsic value until the first programs are released. Any rises in value after the IPO and before the release of programs will be purely speculative.

Then comes the issue of copycats. Unless the developers put safeguards in place to prevent programs on the ETH network being able to run on Cheaper-ETH network, what's to stop someone from creating a copy and convincing everyone to move their programs over due to attractive low fees that is bound to attract an exponentially larger userbase?

Lastly, while it may seem the developer's interests are aligned with the project with their 50% premine, this is not particularly true. They are basically making investors pay for their 50% ETH. So they have no incentive to preserve it's value. Whatever value they dump it at, it will be 100% pure profit on top of the millions in USD they get.

They are also paying roughly 500 BTC for someone to develop a client(s)? Seems like excessive spending, IMO.

All of these factors make ETH an extremely unattractive investment to make. Sure, some people believe in the idea behind it. But the fact is that if there is no incentive to balance out the huge risk investors are taking, then they won't take the risk.

Yes and yes. There is absolutely no reasons for them to ask any money if they believe in their project and there is no reason for us to send any satoshis because the value of Ethereum come from the applications that : doesn't exist yet & will be developed by community (not Ethereum devs).

If interesting applications are created one day, it will be no use if the price per coins is too high because people won't be able to use them.

Also, no one though about it but :
If the Ethereum-development-kit is a simplification of C++ (an intermediate-level language), how can we expect applications to be optimized and effective ? How can we expect good application at all ??

Here's my bag so you don't ask : BTC, iexec, byteball and pepecash
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January 26, 2014, 09:32:54 AM
 #352



Apparently you are advocating the entire bticoin community to give them a no doc 36 million cash gift. I have a problem with that. LMAO We all want to make money on these coins but when someone says gimme 36 million before I launch, they better have everything audited and legal dont you think that makes sense?  

From the whitepaper: "Ether will be released in a fundraiser at the price of 1000-2000 ether per BTC, with earlier funders getting a better price to compensate for the increased uncertainty of participating at an earlier stage. The minimum funding amount will be 0.01 BTC."

The fundraiser will run 60 days and starts FEB 1st. The official announcement is at the Miami conference this weekend. Some facts of the project still aren't known. I'm looking forward to the news coming out of Florida.

I believe 36 million in the implied market cap if the fundraiser were to raise 30k in BTC on the first day. This is probably unlikely to happen, but you never know.



The problem with it is developers want to get rich off the expense of suckers willing to pay the insanely high price of 1 BTC for 1000 ether. And it's premined? To top it all off it's an infinitely inflationary stock (which means it dilutes forever), and it's mined. I don't see why it has to be mined. Mastercoin and Bitshares aren't going to be mined so why do we need mining at all?

I won't be investing in Ethereum early on and I had intended to when I read the technical specifications. The technical specifications are impressive but whoever is behind the economics of this is doing it all wrong.

You want to return the best ROI for the early investors/adopters. If you're going to punish them then why would anyone have faith in your stock, your product, or your future decisions? Ether is a stock and it's a perpetually diluting stock which means you have to keep buying more and more if you want to maintain the same position.

If you're an investor you should put your money in Bitshares, Mastercoin, Counterparty, but if you want to support the technology you should donate to Ethereum.

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January 26, 2014, 09:39:33 AM
 #353

Posts about Ethereum will be flagged as off topic. This thread is to discuss public sanitation in restrooms and feces masking as flatulence.

 Grin Thank you was waiting for someone to bring back some sanity into this, sidetracking the subject into Proof of Work while we were clearly speaking of Proof Of Steak and the aftermath. Thanks Leo.

So what does PoS stand for?

Piece Of Sh**  Grin
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January 26, 2014, 09:44:36 AM
 #354

It could be Goldman Sachs plot trying to control the future of the crypto-currency world.... At 8:12 in their introductory video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5FDvzj8YX4 ) one of the founders mentions that employees from Goldman Sachs are working in the Ethereum team. No offence to Vitalik, I respect him but he could have been conned...

With 50% premine + 35k BTCs IPO target (all risks are borne by the investors) this doesn't seem like a conspiracy theory to me....


 
 
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January 26, 2014, 10:00:56 AM
 #355

Hey Vitalik good luck and congratulations! Was nice to meet you at the Bitcoins Inside Vegas conference. Purchased one of every magazine you had available. I will be doing my best to learn about ethereum!

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January 26, 2014, 10:49:52 AM
 #356

It could be Goldman Sachs plot trying to control the future of the crypto-currency world....


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January 26, 2014, 01:33:57 PM
 #357

It could be Goldman Sachs plot trying to control the future of the crypto-currency world.... At 8:12 in their introductory video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5FDvzj8YX4 ) one of the founders mentions that employees from Goldman Sachs are working in the Ethereum team. No offence to Vitalik, I respect him but he could have been conned...

Do you follow the financial markets at all? Stocks, bonds, etc? If so, you'd know that for a long time now Wall Street has been recruiting talent to develop ultra complex trading vehicles... like the derivatives or the default swaps on mortgages that almost collapsed the economy....there's also a whole dark side of stocks for a long time now involved in high frequency trading that trades off algos... these guys aren't the "banker" cliche you might be thinking about...

with that said, it's my personal belief that Wall St. will get involved (if not already are)... if they can make money, they'll show up... I would guess there's a good deal already trading in coins... developing platforms for alt-coins...

Is it a good thing or bad thing that they'll eventually be the big player in cryptos? I dunno. But it's why Eth is compelling to me as a possible investment. One of the possible uses is developing financial derivatives... which might get mainstream money to back Eth more than anything else....

 
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January 26, 2014, 01:42:44 PM
 #358

People should be aware that this entity is attempting to raise 36 Million even before the launch of the coin through a pre-sale and that they are pre-mining 50% of the coin before launch...all for a software that will be cloned instantly after launch.  Also, since they are trying to crowdfundraise they need to by law register and file the proper paperwork with the SEC and agencies in Canada and whatever countries they are doing business in.  So far all they have is a youtube video and a few message boards and they want to become millionaires and extract 36 million dollars from the Bitcoin community all before even launching. 

Yes, thats right 36 million in crowdfundraising from the bitcoin community plus 50% pre-mine and all they have so far is a youtube video.  No transparency , no bonds, no insurance, no background checks, nothing.  Anytime an entity tries to raise any amount of money they must file the proper paperwork with complete certified financials, background on principle owners and officers, business plan, competition risk, etc.. This is to prevent fraud.  None of this has been done and they are asking for 36 million before launch in untraceable bitcoin money.

If you like the technology, don't buy into their pre-sale that is just dumb and rewarding these guys for doing nothing and basically turning them into millionaires before launch.  They are basically leaving the entire risk on the Bitcoin community.  They have nothing invested into this project yet and they want to get PAID before it even starts.  They are asking  you to GIVE them 30,000 Bitcoins before it even launches.  I say frack them.  Let them earn their money like all the other devs.  Buy it aftermarket.  They are going to dump a lot of 50% pre-mined coins aftermarket when they realize there is not enough people dumb enough to give them 30,000 Bitcoins and 50% pre-mine before the damn thing even launches.

These guys have ZERO risk and want to be millionaires before it even launches.  They are asking for 30,000 Bitcoins from you.  PLUS 50% pre-mine, PLUS huge salary. Insane and all for open source software that will be copied one hundred times after launch.

Bitcoin address: 1BPtjSw1U19r6bSDXAc3Adr5xtS21yEwXU
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January 26, 2014, 01:48:09 PM
 #359

Great project, lets wait for the actual IPO prospect and see exactly what is offered. But defiantly needed in some form!
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January 26, 2014, 01:53:25 PM
 #360

Great project, lets wait for the actual IPO prospect and see exactly what is offered. But defiantly needed in some form!

The IPO prospectus?  Are you kidding me??  This is not a registered security and they have not filed the proper paperwork with SEC or any agency.  The prospectus will not be worth the ink on paper its printed on.  The prospectus they provide not be reviewed by the SEC, it will read like a marketing brochure.

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