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Author Topic: [ANN] Ethereum: Welcome to the Beginning  (Read 1822308 times)
_ingsoc
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January 31, 2014, 11:58:02 AM
 #981

I agree completely, and I have no intention to "run" to the SEC. Furthermore, if I was 19 like Vitalik is, I'd probably decide to get rich first and then deal with SEC or whatever. The sensible thing is to remember that that did not play very well for Charlie Shrem, but a handful of millions or well worth the risk for most youngesters.

I try really hard not to think about age. Of course you make some determination of a person based on their characteristics, and the thing about Vitalik from what we read in the media is that (a) he is onto something really cool, and (b) he's young. I just feel it's a bit unfair for people to have at it because Vitalik is relative young compared to most of us, and therefore is at a higher risk of doing something stupid. I'm not saying your thoughts went down that route, but I think it's interesting to point out the reasoning, which is something I've noticed people do when they talk about Vitalik and this project (I'm probably guilty of that too sometimes).


Regarding the model: business is business, and the founders have found a huge business opportunity. They have realized people is demanding get rich quick schemes and is willing to throw their money to whoever comes up with the next things that smells of innovation and triple digit % gains. You can see how colored coins get less attention than MSC... Why? The answer is very simple: greed. MSC is marketed as the "ultimate investment" (as Ethereal is), colored coins isn't.

I think Mastercoin is a nightmare of insanity to be quite frank. I don't mean that in a way to diss the project or anything like that, but I think how they did things was wildly unethical. To simply start taking people's money with no real plan, or no idea of who's going to work on your plan when you get it figured out, is in my book totally insane - perhaps even where all this craziness started. A white paper is not justification to start accepting money.


In the world I come from, companies make IPO's when they already have a product that works. Before that, you have private investments, seed capital, whatever - but you do not go public.

What's happening is pure madness in my book. Profitable madness? Probably, but its unsustainable in the long term.

Let me give you an example. Way before Mastercoin, a user on here by the name of tacotime posted his ideas in a conceptual white paper on this forum. I thought it was cool and he didn't sound like a jerk, so I started helping him out. We've had endless messages sent to us where people wanted to throw money at it and instead of taking people's money without a solid plan like a lot of projects on here, we decided against it. We're both in grad school, and it's only now that we have the chance to organise things in a way that will provide people with some form of assurance. And that's why you don't take money if you can't provide that.

To this day we haven't accepted a penny. Instead we focused on building relationships with interesting people and organisations and kept up to date with the ideas and trends in the field, with the hope that the project can end up giving people something they want to use. These little grassroots projects hardly get the attention the bigger ones do that cause the hysteria, but at the end of the day, I'm more interested in listening to the community (I do that even when I troll), and put something together through the people who want to use it. If that means it's small-scale and doesn't take over the world, then that's okay by me. Maybe that's idealistic and stupid, but I'm happy going down that road instead. Smiley

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_ingsoc
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January 31, 2014, 12:01:51 PM
 #982

I"m just amazed how gutshot single handedly destroyed this IPO. How come Ethereum listened to him? I wasn't sure if i wanted to invest but maybe i would have

Like a said, gutshot5820 is a creature of incomprehensible determination. He is a master ruseman, truly understands the power of fear, and in between all his mongering, he actually ends up making a good point here and there.

gutshot5820:

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January 31, 2014, 12:08:09 PM
 #983

plus it can be sent over the wire, "packed", "minified", eval'ed at will, etc... no idea why trying to reinvent the wheel Grin

PS: I would greatly benefit from it, since JS is my main coding language Cheesy

I think this mostly comes down to the fact that Java and its miscreants are the Devil.

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January 31, 2014, 12:10:46 PM
 #984

plus it can be sent over the wire, "packed", "minified", eval'ed at will, etc... no idea why trying to reinvent the wheel Grin

PS: I would greatly benefit from it, since JS is my main coding language Cheesy

I think this mostly comes down to the fact that Java and its miscreants are the Devil.

And still anyone with the skills could implement a javascript client. If ethereum really breaks through there will be a lot of opportunity for new development. I think its a good thing to see there are already multiple prototype clients in multiple languages.
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January 31, 2014, 12:12:03 PM
 #985

Has anyone addressed the security of having a Turing complete foundation? Turing complete means that Ethereum contracts will likely be absolutely loaded with common and proprietary viruses, keyloggers, malware, adware, and a slew of other bad things. I am willing to bet my bank account that in a few short months people will be crying about how they got all their wallets/currency stolen, or their computers are now running slow, or how they blue screen every few minutes after a reboot.

If you want an example of how Turing complete works, load up a peer to peer sharing program and download a bunch of .MOV files and run them. I GUARANTEE that you will get a virus. That's because Quicktime movie files are Turing complete. This is why mkv, mpeg, mpg and avi, while not impervious, are much much safer to download. If you want to invest, mine, and run contracts at the risk of losing everything then go ahead. We will never know for sure how secure Ether is going to be until post release, so asking for money without proof of security is another red flag.


The idiotic devs still haven't addressed this. Instead opting to dismiss it entirely. This altcoin will go through 100 iterations before it's safe to invest a penny, if ever.
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January 31, 2014, 12:25:26 PM
 #986

And still anyone with the skills could implement a javascript client. If ethereum really breaks through there will be a lot of opportunity for new development. I think its a good thing to see there are already multiple prototype clients in multiple languages.

They deliberately chose to develop multiple clients in multiple languages reasoning that a single client could be a point of failure i.e. if only one client was used and it faced problems/bugs in future it would effect everybody. In this scenario its impact would not be so utterly complete.
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January 31, 2014, 12:27:56 PM
 #987

They deliberately chose to develop multiple clients in multiple languages reasoning that a single client could be a point of failure i.e. if only one client was used and it faced problems/bugs in future it would effect everybody. In this scenario its impact would not be so utterly complete.

It also gets away from the monoculture, which I think is awesome if you can do it.

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January 31, 2014, 12:28:00 PM
 #988

Has anyone addressed the security of having a Turing complete foundation? Turing complete means that Ethereum contracts will likely be absolutely loaded with common and proprietary viruses, keyloggers, malware, adware, and a slew of other bad things. I am willing to bet my bank account that in a few short months people will be crying about how they got all their wallets/currency stolen, or their computers are now running slow, or how they blue screen every few minutes after a reboot.

If you want an example of how Turing complete works, load up a peer to peer sharing program and download a bunch of .MOV files and run them. I GUARANTEE that you will get a virus. That's because Quicktime movie files are Turing complete. This is why mkv, mpeg, mpg and avi, while not impervious, are much much safer to download. If you want to invest, mine, and run contracts at the risk of losing everything then go ahead. We will never know for sure how secure Ether is going to be until post release, so asking for money without proof of security is another red flag.


The idiotic devs still haven't addressed this. Instead opting to dismiss it entirely. This altcoin will go through 100 iterations before it's safe to invest a penny, if ever.

LeoC = Fox and the 10 sour Bitcoins.

Even if you have a valid concern you have been exposed as an extortionist, one will always have to question your motive and bias.  
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January 31, 2014, 02:30:15 PM
 #989

I find it highly ironic that the same people who use Bitcoin for philosophical reasons (don't like government involvement in their lives) are happy to run to the government any time they feel they need help or protection.

Seriously? The very same people that argue for deregulation, in favor of Silk Road, against the IRS taxing crypto...are the same people who want to run to the SEC now?


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rdnkjdi
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January 31, 2014, 02:44:18 PM
 #990

I find it highly ironic that the same people who use Bitcoin for philosophical reasons (don't like government involvement in their lives) are happy to run to the government any time they feel they need help or protection.

Seriously? The very same people that argue for deregulation, in favor of Silk Road, against the IRS taxing crypto...are the same people who want to run to the SEC now?



Except.  It won't work.  

No one is giving a DIME to Ethereum.  They are giving bitcoins.  Bitcoins are not a currency.  So normal rules don't apply.  What most people don't realize is that if normal rules DID apply.  All investors would have to make >250K a year and legally prove it.

Do you think the government (assuming they thought this was fraudulent) would love to see a bunch of people lose their bitcoins?  To teach them a lesson about the value of real currency.  And the protection of the SEC vs the wild west of crypto?
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January 31, 2014, 02:46:34 PM
 #991

Bitcoins are not a currency.

http://www.cutimes.com/2013/08/09/judges-ruling-bitcoin-is-real-money
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January 31, 2014, 02:50:03 PM
 #992

For those interested in discussing the fundraiser structure and give suggestions, there's a great thread on the subreddit right now: http://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/1wksgq/lets_help_come_up_with_a_better_fundraising_model/


Note that the team is going to open a QA thread very soon on bitcointalk. Should help with making sense of things, as this ANN thread as been derailed more times than I can count.

Ethereum Twitter: @ethereumproject - Blog: blog.ethereum.org - Forum: forum.ethereum.org - Github: github.com/ethereum
turtoro
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January 31, 2014, 02:58:39 PM
 #993

Has anyone addressed the security of having a Turing complete foundation? Turing complete means that Ethereum contracts will likely be absolutely loaded with common and proprietary viruses, keyloggers, malware, adware, and a slew of other bad things. I am willing to bet my bank account that in a few short months people will be crying about how they got all their wallets/currency stolen, or their computers are now running slow, or how they blue screen every few minutes after a reboot.

If you want an example of how Turing complete works, load up a peer to peer sharing program and download a bunch of .MOV files and run them. I GUARANTEE that you will get a virus. That's because Quicktime movie files are Turing complete. This is why mkv, mpeg, mpg and avi, while not impervious, are much much safer to download. If you want to invest, mine, and run contracts at the risk of losing everything then go ahead. We will never know for sure how secure Ether is going to be until post release, so asking for money without proof of security is another red flag.


The idiotic devs still haven't addressed this. Instead opting to dismiss it entirely. This altcoin will go through 100 iterations before it's safe to invest a penny, if ever.

nothing you say holds merit anymore after you tried to bribe the devs out of money to stop bashing the project. go away


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=428589.msg4829119#msg4829119
###
"10 BTC and I'll remove my posts even though they are factual and won't make any more. 15 and I will change my tune and promote.

eMunie have already lost hundreds of BTC and were forced to cancel their IPO when I called them out here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=411366.0

I was going to create a similar thread regarding Ethereum, unless you send the above amounts.

I'd suggest you think long and hard about this. Which would you prefer to lose, 10 BTC or 1000, your choice.

1C7MPUTTWQjinfbRcQtW6HAc4ips7wMuiJ"
###
rdnkjdi
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January 31, 2014, 03:00:31 PM
 #994


I stand half way corrected.

http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/31/5364406/bitcoin-miners-investors-not-regulated-fincen-ruling
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January 31, 2014, 03:05:39 PM
 #995


http://business.time.com/2014/01/27/bitinstant-ceo-charlie-shrem-arrested-for-alleged-money-laundering/

So Charlie Shrem was arrested for laundering money or ...

R u sure that Vitalik / investors won't be arrested?
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January 31, 2014, 03:16:35 PM
 #996


Considering that Ethereum is getting more and more popular... I believe the investment cap of 30000 BTC should be killed.

30000 BTC is a lot of crypto anyway... if the IPO were to reach those levels... who cares if it goes even higher?



The cap should be taken away so the little guy can get in. 30,000 will be hit in 10 min!!!
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January 31, 2014, 03:44:17 PM
 #997


Read the criminal complain against Shrem. It includes emails that he allegedly sent to BTCKing conspiring to launder money and to purchase drugs on Silk Road. This arrest was not an attack on bitcoin, it was an attack on money laundering/drug dealing. I am a bit troubled by the timing (in New York, the day before the NY hearings)...

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TinEye
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January 31, 2014, 03:45:52 PM
 #998

Can anybody give a summary what happened to the presale?



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Alphi
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January 31, 2014, 04:12:08 PM
 #999



http://business.time.com/2014/01/27/bitinstant-ceo-charlie-shrem-arrested-for-alleged-money-laundering/

So Charlie Shrem was arrested for laundering money or ...

R u sure that Vitalik / investors won't be arrested?

Mr Shrek became unstuck because he and his company were dealing with FIAT money.
Shrek even admitted in emails that he knew that the guy he was dealing with was exchanging drug money into and out of bitcoin.
he even overruled his partner who was concerned about money laundering and went out of his way to keep the illicit business..
its all in the indictment.

the Ethereum team are NOT involved in any exchange of Fiat currency they are simply building a new technology which may or may not result in a new market for exchange.

there is no way that this could be construed as money laundering unless the intent was clearly to exchange the proceeds of crime from one form of money to another less traceable form.

so legally (as long as their was no criminal intent) the Ethereum guys are in the clear but as we have already seen, that may not stop the banksters and other powers that be from attacking them.

people who are willing to publicly put their name and face to Crypto inventions are taking a very big risk indeed, but in this day and age of a multiplicity of petty scams it is a necessary burden to give the project legitimacy and credibility.

What happened to Mr Shrek should be a warning to everyone... do not assume the authorities aren't watching.. and do not put your greed for money above your legal and moral duty to obey they law.

Mr Shrek, Mr Shavers and Mr Ulbricht were too greedy.. they will pay for their greed.

no doubt others will soon follow...





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ThePatient
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January 31, 2014, 04:27:48 PM
 #1000

I find it highly ironic that the same people who use Bitcoin for philosophical reasons (don't like government involvement in their lives) are happy to run to the government any time they feel they need help or protection.

Seriously? The very same people that argue for deregulation, in favor of Silk Road, against the IRS taxing crypto...are the same people who want to run to the SEC now?

...and you just so happen to know the exact reason why the people in this thread that are saying the SEC will get involved use bitcoins...

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