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Author Topic: [ANN] Ethereum: Welcome to the Beginning  (Read 1308304 times)
lonsharim
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January 30, 2014, 10:24:47 AM
 #921

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A turing complete language for the script language sounds academic to me.  It would require a lot of limitations to make sure people are not putting malicious code into their transactions.

Sure there would be limitations. It cannot work in any other way. I will assume this will have to run within some sort of sandbox. I speculate that apart from interacting with well defined objects within the platform it will be able to do little else.

Look at Javascript today, it runs in your browser with restrictions, i.e. it can do web related tasks but not others like creating files or accessing file systems. That is called a limitation. It is also constrained by scope, so cannot be privy to information between your browser and another site. That is also a limitation.

With a turing complete language you can expect such restrictions, without them you will have security nightmares, likely still have little loopholes that will have to be plugged along the way while the system itself matures.

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January 30, 2014, 10:28:59 AM
 #922

Hopefully, regulatory issues are being worked out as promised as it will be one less thing to worry about, but I still stand with what I wrote earlier regarding the investment structure of the deal.

So far judging from the responses on all Ethereum forums here is what I see.  Most of the people posting on this forum and almost all the people that were at the Miami Conference praising Ethereum are developers.  There is genuine potential for this platform to be groundbreaking if done right.  The devs that are shilling for the Ethereum to succeed have either been involved in pre-fund raising before and want to see this succeed for selfish reasons or they believe in Ethereum  and are planning to monetize this platform in the future and want to see Ethereum succeed for selfish reasons.

Then you have the other half of the devs that are not involved with the project, see there are too many risks involved and fearful of wall street taking over the crypto industry.

Where I feel there is a severe disconnect is that the majority of opinions on this forum, Reddit, etc.. are developers and they will constitute less that 1% of the total amount of investment capital that Ethereum is trying to raise.  

If you go to a Conference where the entire majority of reporters have a dev background, you are basically looking at the very definition of a biased opinion and reporting.  Just because a small group of technology advanced individuals are excited about the possibility of the tech, doesn't actually mean equate a great investment.

Then you have the 99% of the general crypto population that are only interested in making a quick profit on this coin.  They are not particularly interested in this new coin/platform and don't really care about the technology and only if there will be enough ROI to justify an initial investment into the pre-sale.  Initially, there was a lot of hype on this coin that drew a lot of interest, but crypto investors cannot be duped.  They realize they are not getting into this investment at the ground floor level and with the amount of money/bitcoin that Ethereum is trying to raise before launch, there will have to be 100 million dollar market cap for them to see a profit.  Long-term is the only reason to invest.  There are few pump and dump scenarios that will work with this investment structure that Ethereum is proposing because all the initial "pump" profit is being taken out of the market and into Ethereum's pocket right from the beginning.

Long term I see a lot of risks involved with pre-sale investment.
1/ There is risk of immediate loss of equity once it hits an exchange.
2/ There is risk of dilution
3/ There is risk of the company dissolving or bankrupting (however small)
4/  There is risk of this becoming vaporware
5/  There is risk that it will be forked and cloned
6/  There is risk that there will be too many security holes
7/  There is risk that a newer and better technology with greater funding and transparency will enter the market in due time
8/  There is risk that the altcoin (or platform if you want to call it that) crypto market will crash in a few years
9/   There is a risk (and I personally feel strongly about this) that the price will be considerably lower once it hits an exchange and falls to what the market feels is an appropriate price for the amount of risk and dilution involved with the project.

Of course, I could be wrong and Ethereum totally sells out and there will be another 100 million worth of btc bid aftermarket.  But do you really think that crypto investors are dying to jump in to give anyone 100 million on vaporware on a diluted investment? ALL you have to look at is the forum boards and ignore the developers who are shilling for the product to succeed.  There is a huge outcry against the current investment scheme.  Why are people so vehemently against Ethereum's structure?  Because they feel it has a possibility to be an asset to the bitcoin community but not the way its currently structured.  

So in final words, whether you believe in the tech or not, all you have to ask yourself is this.  Would I be better off investing in the pre-sale or should I invest aftermarket?

There is absolutely only ONE reason you should buy into the pre-sale, if you believe that it will be so much oversold and the market will not feel that it's diluted to the point where there is another huge group of buyers willing to take it off your hands and xxx times a return on your investment right from the beginning of launch.

Now I submit to you a few simple reasons why you should wait until aftermarket to buy-in.

1/  You NEGATE any risk mentioned earlier in the post and you only have to consider risk/reward.  If I buy in pre-sale what risk do I take vs the reward I will have for taking that risk.  Do you think there is greater chance that the market price will be higher than lower from the pre-sale price?  And to what degree do you need to see Ethereum trade at to make this pre-sale investment worth it for you.
2/  Time value - What could have I done with this money invested in Ethereum that will be locked up from pre-sale until launch on a legitimate market.  During those two or three months, you could have that money invested in Bitcoin (which has a lot less downside and at the current level has a good chance of increasing in value) or a dozen new altcoins that will be launching that as you can see we are in the midst of a crypto coin boom.  How much money will you have lost by freezing your money up in Ethereum, when it could be actively invested in other more profitable ventures where the initial investment is not severely diluted?
3/  During the time you buy into the pre-sale (several months) and the time you are able to trade your ETH on an exchange, I guarantee you there will several new teams announcing a new platform or coin that will get much better press with a better investment structure.  You take the risk of obsolescence even before the coin launches.
4/ By buying into the coin pre-sale and making it a success you encourage Wall Street to take over the crypto coin market and in the future you may see an environment where every new coin launch will be diluted and structured in a way that only Wall Street will increase their millions and the RISK will all be burdened by the crypto community.  Ethereum will set a new precedent and if you think this will not happen, think again.  Miners and crypto investors will be locked out of the early "pump" profits while Wall Street makes millions and we will take all the RISK. The early pre-sale investors will essentially be the bagholders.
5/ Here is the most important reason to wait until it hits an exchange to buy into Ethereum, you NEGATE all the risk I mentioned before and plus you do not enable this kind of launch in the future.  There is a good chance that you will be able to buy it lower than the offering price of approx a dollar an ETH. and if the price rises a bit, you can still buy in at the pre-sale price or a little bit higher.  The only reason you should be buying this pre-sale is if you believe that there is another 100 million waiting in line to buy ETH and there is no risk involved.  You have absolutely nothing to lose by waiting and a lot at stake by buying and enabling this type of coin pre-sale launch.

Now, over the next few days I imagine Ethereum will hire a Marketing PR, they will hype and pump the tech and coin and gloss it over to make it look like they invented the wheel.  They will cast out all the doubters and call them "FUD."  Vitalik will come online and answer questions about the tech.  But I say to you forget about all that.  Don't get caught up in the tech, we all  know the tech has the potential to be amazing.  Look at the investment structure.  Dont let Vitalik use excuses like this is the best way to avoid "whales" from taking over the market.  That is so naive.  Think!!! Regardless of the tech, is it more beneficial to me, considering risk vs reward, to buy pre-sale or buy aftermarket?

If you choose pre-sale, then good luck, all I'm asking you is to forget the tech and the chatter from the devs and focus on the pros and con of the investment only.  Live long and prosper!!


Instead of writing an essay, fix what you see is wrong with what they're doing in a bullet list. Nobody can dig into all of this text. I'm not saying that to mess with you, I want to see a better plan that can be digested.

I thought it was pretty obvious what I was suggesting.  Until there is a change in the investment structure, there is too much risk and not enough upside to compensate to justify a buy-in on the pre-sale.  In no way am I suggesting not to buy the pre-sale, just that there are many factors to consider and as of now it is heavily weighted towards waiting until Ethereum hits an exchange.  This current structure guarantees the founders immense wealth with no motivation to follow through properly and leaves the entire risk upon the shoulders of the Bitcoin Community.

That being said, I do recognize the potential for Ethereum to be a great success if not a game changer if done right.  You can support Ethereum and its objectives by buying the coins aftermarket and still support the platform and its primary goals.  My suggestion is to wait until after the launch and buy it on an exchange at a price the market will accept.  You can still support Ethereum and its objectives that way.  Nothing wrong with that.

They need to offer more ETH per bitcoin, lower the MAX to an acceptable level and therefore the pre-mine.  And lower their shares of the coin to a level that doesn't reflect a persona of greed. If they are right and follow through, they can still be multi-millionaires by changing the structure in a way that it is not overly diluted and fair and equitable to early investors.  The way is is structured now, they are punishing you for being an early adopter and instantly becoming wealthy without any risk at all.  

I feel that if you are going to ask the investment community to fund the entire project sight unseen, then there must be checks and balances of risk/reward for founders and early adopters.  This project is NOT a slam dunk, there is immense risk to go along with the rewards they are alluding to.  Therefore the founders must take some risk themselves and give opportunity for early adopters to gain reward.  ETH is not structured as a positive investment vehicle in its current form

If it changes to an acceptable level of risk, I will buy-in heavily also.  Right now, hell no.  Way too much risk and dilution and uncertainty to warrant a pre-sale buy-in at this time.  Let's see what they come up with based on all the feedback they have been getting.  If it tilts slighltly more in our favor, how can you complain if you were going to invest anyways?


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Herp
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January 30, 2014, 10:34:50 AM
 #923

This plan is at least 1 year away from coming to market while other 2.0s are already here almost. Mastercoin will launch a distributed exchange very soon, in testing phase atm. When that comes, the early adopter advantage will be too powerful for competition to easily overcome.

Also, keep in mind that protoshare devs warned against use of Turing and they've probably had their reasons. They saw all sorts of problems arousing from that. So probably getting such system right from scratch in 1 year is optimistic to say the least.

A bird in hand is worth 2 in the bush I'd say.


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DECENT
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kcirazy
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January 30, 2014, 10:38:28 AM
 #924

Since the fundraiser is now delayed and a testnet will be run first, the discussion about that seems to be unnecessary. So lets focus on the technical aspects and development for now.

BitMessage Address: BM-2DAxdCKXtA8crWFEHrHdwCVRmN6aDbrFYc
jsteelbeam
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January 30, 2014, 10:39:48 AM
 #925

Hopefully, regulatory issues are being worked out as promised as it will be one less thing to worry about, but I still stand with what I wrote earlier regarding the investment structure of the deal.

So far judging from the responses on all Ethereum forums here is what I see.  Most of the people posting on this forum and almost all the people that were at the Miami Conference praising Ethereum are developers.  There is genuine potential for this platform to be groundbreaking if done right.  The devs that are shilling for the Ethereum to succeed have either been involved in pre-fund raising before and want to see this succeed for selfish reasons or they believe in Ethereum  and are planning to monetize this platform in the future and want to see Ethereum succeed for selfish reasons.

Then you have the other half of the devs that are not involved with the project, see there are too many risks involved and fearful of wall street taking over the crypto industry.

Where I feel there is a severe disconnect is that the majority of opinions on this forum, Reddit, etc.. are developers and they will constitute less that 1% of the total amount of investment capital that Ethereum is trying to raise.  

If you go to a Conference where the entire majority of reporters have a dev background, you are basically looking at the very definition of a biased opinion and reporting.  Just because a small group of technology advanced individuals are excited about the possibility of the tech, doesn't actually mean equate a great investment.

Then you have the 99% of the general crypto population that are only interested in making a quick profit on this coin.  They are not particularly interested in this new coin/platform and don't really care about the technology and only if there will be enough ROI to justify an initial investment into the pre-sale.  Initially, there was a lot of hype on this coin that drew a lot of interest, but crypto investors cannot be duped.  They realize they are not getting into this investment at the ground floor level and with the amount of money/bitcoin that Ethereum is trying to raise before launch, there will have to be 100 million dollar market cap for them to see a profit.  Long-term is the only reason to invest.  There are few pump and dump scenarios that will work with this investment structure that Ethereum is proposing because all the initial "pump" profit is being taken out of the market and into Ethereum's pocket right from the beginning.

Long term I see a lot of risks involved with pre-sale investment.
1/ There is risk of immediate loss of equity once it hits an exchange.
2/ There is risk of dilution
3/ There is risk of the company dissolving or bankrupting (however small)
4/  There is risk of this becoming vaporware
5/  There is risk that it will be forked and cloned
6/  There is risk that there will be too many security holes
7/  There is risk that a newer and better technology with greater funding and transparency will enter the market in due time
8/  There is risk that the altcoin (or platform if you want to call it that) crypto market will crash in a few years
9/   There is a risk (and I personally feel strongly about this) that the price will be considerably lower once it hits an exchange and falls to what the market feels is an appropriate price for the amount of risk and dilution involved with the project.

Of course, I could be wrong and Ethereum totally sells out and there will be another 100 million worth of btc bid aftermarket.  But do you really think that crypto investors are dying to jump in to give anyone 100 million on vaporware on a diluted investment? ALL you have to look at is the forum boards and ignore the developers who are shilling for the product to succeed.  There is a huge outcry against the current investment scheme.  Why are people so vehemently against Ethereum's structure?  Because they feel it has a possibility to be an asset to the bitcoin community but not the way its currently structured.  

So in final words, whether you believe in the tech or not, all you have to ask yourself is this.  Would I be better off investing in the pre-sale or should I invest aftermarket?

There is absolutely only ONE reason you should buy into the pre-sale, if you believe that it will be so much oversold and the market will not feel that it's diluted to the point where there is another huge group of buyers willing to take it off your hands and xxx times a return on your investment right from the beginning of launch.

Now I submit to you a few simple reasons why you should wait until aftermarket to buy-in.

1/  You NEGATE any risk mentioned earlier in the post and you only have to consider risk/reward.  If I buy in pre-sale what risk do I take vs the reward I will have for taking that risk.  Do you think there is greater chance that the market price will be higher than lower from the pre-sale price?  And to what degree do you need to see Ethereum trade at to make this pre-sale investment worth it for you.
2/  Time value - What could have I done with this money invested in Ethereum that will be locked up from pre-sale until launch on a legitimate market.  During those two or three months, you could have that money invested in Bitcoin (which has a lot less downside and at the current level has a good chance of increasing in value) or a dozen new altcoins that will be launching that as you can see we are in the midst of a crypto coin boom.  How much money will you have lost by freezing your money up in Ethereum, when it could be actively invested in other more profitable ventures where the initial investment is not severely diluted?
3/  During the time you buy into the pre-sale (several months) and the time you are able to trade your ETH on an exchange, I guarantee you there will several new teams announcing a new platform or coin that will get much better press with a better investment structure.  You take the risk of obsolescence even before the coin launches.
4/ By buying into the coin pre-sale and making it a success you encourage Wall Street to take over the crypto coin market and in the future you may see an environment where every new coin launch will be diluted and structured in a way that only Wall Street will increase their millions and the RISK will all be burdened by the crypto community.  Ethereum will set a new precedent and if you think this will not happen, think again.  Miners and crypto investors will be locked out of the early "pump" profits while Wall Street makes millions and we will take all the RISK. The early pre-sale investors will essentially be the bagholders.
5/ Here is the most important reason to wait until it hits an exchange to buy into Ethereum, you NEGATE all the risk I mentioned before and plus you do not enable this kind of launch in the future.  There is a good chance that you will be able to buy it lower than the offering price of approx a dollar an ETH. and if the price rises a bit, you can still buy in at the pre-sale price or a little bit higher.  The only reason you should be buying this pre-sale is if you believe that there is another 100 million waiting in line to buy ETH and there is no risk involved.  You have absolutely nothing to lose by waiting and a lot at stake by buying and enabling this type of coin pre-sale launch.

Now, over the next few days I imagine Ethereum will hire a Marketing PR, they will hype and pump the tech and coin and gloss it over to make it look like they invented the wheel.  They will cast out all the doubters and call them "FUD."  Vitalik will come online and answer questions about the tech.  But I say to you forget about all that.  Don't get caught up in the tech, we all  know the tech has the potential to be amazing.  Look at the investment structure.  Dont let Vitalik use excuses like this is the best way to avoid "whales" from taking over the market.  That is so naive.  Think!!! Regardless of the tech, is it more beneficial to me, considering risk vs reward, to buy pre-sale or buy aftermarket?

If you choose pre-sale, then good luck, all I'm asking you is to forget the tech and the chatter from the devs and focus on the pros and con of the investment only.  Live long and prosper!!


Instead of writing an essay, fix what you see is wrong with what they're doing in a bullet list. Nobody can dig into all of this text. I'm not saying that to mess with you, I want to see a better plan that can be digested.

I thought it was pretty obvious what I was suggesting.  Until there is a change in the investment structure, there is too much risk and not enough upside to compensate to justify a buy-in on the pre-sale.  In no way am I suggesting not to buy the pre-sale, just that there are many factors to consider and as of now it is heavily weighted towards waiting until Ethereum hits an exchange.  This current structure guarantees the founders immense wealth with no motivation to follow through properly and leaves the entire risk upon the shoulders of the Bitcoin Community.

That being said, I do recognize the potential for Ethereum to be a great success if not a game changer if done right.  You can support Ethereum and its objectives by buying the coins aftermarket and still support the platform and its primary goals.  My suggestion is to wait until after the launch and buy it on an exchange at a price the market will accept.  You can still support Ethereum and its objectives that way.  Nothing wrong with that.

They need to offer more ETH per bitcoin, lower the MAX to an acceptable level and therefore the pre-mine.  And lower their shares of the coin to a level that doesn't reflect a persona of greed. If they are right and follow through, they can still be multi-millionaires by changing the structure in a way that it is not overly diluted and fair and equitable to early investors.  The way is is structured now, they are punishing you for being an early adopter and instantly becoming wealthy without any risk at all.  

I feel that if you are going to ask the investment community to fund the entire project sight unseen, then there must be checks and balances of risk/reward for founders and early adopters.  This project is NOT a slam dunk, there is immense risk to go along with the rewards they are alluding to.  Therefore the founders must take some risk themselves and give opportunity for early adopters to gain reward.  ETH is not structured as a positive investment vehicle in its current form

If it changes to an acceptable level of risk, I will buy-in heavily also.  Right now, hell no.  Way too much risk and dilution and uncertainty to warrant a pre-sale buy-in at this time.  Let's see what they come up with based on all the feedback they have been getting.  If it tilts slighltly more in our favor, how can you complain if you were going to invest anyways?



I actually appreciate this post.  For what it is worth, it allows me to understand and respect your point of view far better than your previous posts.
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January 30, 2014, 10:41:59 AM
 #926

When will they release this coin? What does "Test Release" means? Tongue

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January 30, 2014, 10:45:49 AM
 #927

Lets put the fundraiser in simple terms that everyone can understand.  Everyone should agree agree that all investments should have a proper risk/reward ratio. This project itself has a lot of risk and potentially a lot of reward, so neither can outweigh the other.  Now lets look at this objectively from that perspective.

Ethereum project;
Risk = Very High
Reward = Very High

Founders;
Risk = 0%
Reward=100%

Early adopters;
Risk = 100%
Reward = ?

Put that on a graph.  Does that seem like a fair transaction to you?  

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January 30, 2014, 10:56:15 AM
 #928

They need to offer more ETH per bitcoin, lower the MAX to an acceptable level and therefore the pre-mine.  And lower their shares of the coin to a level that doesn't reflect a persona of greed. If they are right and follow through, they can still be multi-millionaires by changing the structure in a way that it is not overly diluted and fair and equitable to early investors.  The way is is structured now, they are punishing you for being an early adopter and instantly becoming wealthy without any risk at all.

Lets put the fundraiser in simple terms that everyone can understand.  Everyone should agree agree that all investments should have a proper risk/reward ratio. This project itself has a lot of risk and potentially a lot of reward, so neither can outweigh the other.  Now lets look at this objectively from that perspective.

Ethereum project;
Risk = Very High
Reward = Very High

Founders;
Risk = 0%
Reward=100%

Early adopters;
Risk = 100%
Reward = ?

Put that on a graph.  Does that seem like a fair transaction to you? 

I like you a lot more when you don't tell me to kill myself. Cheesy I'm quoting you because this is the essence of what you've been getting at in all your ramblings, and I think these are fair concerns.

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January 30, 2014, 10:57:52 AM
 #929

When will they release this coin? What does "Test Release" means? Tongue

Testnet means we can mess around with Ethereum (incomplete) without any of it being "real". So you can download the code, do stuff, possibly even mine, but none of it has any "value". That's on mainnet.

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January 30, 2014, 11:02:22 AM
 #930

Since the fundraiser is now delayed and a testnet will be run first, the discussion about that seems to be unnecessary. So lets focus on the technical aspects and development for now.

It's kind of like a hostage situation when people are unhappy with terms. They won't commit their ideas to the actual project until the demands on both sides can find balance. For some people that balance never comes, but there's obviously a large percentage of people who post here who are unhappy with what's been proposed in exchange for their Bitcoin and won't release their thoughts to Ethereum even though they're interested (therefore holding their energy hostage before spending it on the project constructively).

The delayed fundraiser has put the thought in their minds that the terms may be under review, so they've cooled it a bit. I don't know if that's actually the case, so we wait and see.

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January 30, 2014, 11:04:08 AM
 #931

Thanks Charles for this reply, the community has been waiting for this statement for almost a week now. No one questing the financial expertise of GS. The question is what are they using it for?

The answer: To control/screw/scam people, the market, the little guy, and also countries....

The best example is Greece. Goldman Sachs has been advising Greece to join the euro, despite the fact that they knew Greece was cooking its books/budget number. In fact GS helped Greece in cooking its budget and hide it's true national debt level. Then, after that country joined the Euro, they were secretly betting on its default.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/economy/2010-02-25-bernanke-fed-greece_N.htm

And this is only one evil deed from Goldman Sachs. There are hundreds of more.

Does the Ethereum Project really wants to be associated with such a parasitic entity?

These are the facts...

Will this information make a difference for you guys at Ethereum?

Only you could tell......

How many times do they need to say there is no Goldman Sachs connection? 90+% of this forum would benefit greatly from taking comprehension classes. Every freakin' post has some tie to Goldman Sachs, when if you just read through the information and go back to the source you'd realise it's totally stupid.

Cool down man! Please don't try to suggest that we were the ones who brought up the GS connection. If Charles hadn't mention it in the introductory video, we wouldn't be speaking about it. And because somebody says something this doesn't make it true. You should know that. We need convincing, open and honest communication.


 
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_ingsoc
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January 30, 2014, 11:07:25 AM
 #932

Cool down man! Please don't try to suggest that we were the ones who brought up the GS connection. If Charles hadn't mention it in the introductory video, we wouldn't be speaking about it. And because somebody says something this doesn't make it true. You should know that. We need convincing, open and honest communication.

Oh my God, are you kidding me? Can we just put the Goldman Sachs logo on the back of one of those t-shirt designs? If this is the average Bitcointalk user's reasoning, we are doomed. GMO got to you.

lonsharim
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January 30, 2014, 11:44:52 AM
 #933

This really cracks me up

Quote
And because somebody says something this doesn't make it true.

What don't you believe? Charles telling in the video that a couple of guys working on the project used to work for GS in the past or Charles categorically stating on the thread that GS has nothing to do with Ethereum or both?

What this proves is that there is a little bit of trust deficit especially as you are evaluating whether or not to invest your hard earned money. Ultimately nothing anyone is going to say to you is going to make any difference because there will always be a lingering doubt. You have had explicit clarifications from the man in the video himself. There is no real way to solve this other than accepting that the man is telling the truth. If you don't believe and GS bothers you so much then there is only one recourse - don't risk it man.

KoinMaster
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January 30, 2014, 11:59:58 AM
 #934

Cool down man! Please don't try to suggest that we were the ones who brought up the GS connection. If Charles hadn't mention it in the introductory video, we wouldn't be speaking about it. And because somebody says something this doesn't make it true. You should know that. We need convincing, open and honest communication.

Oh my God, are you kidding me? Can we just put the Goldman Sachs logo on the back of one of those t-shirt designs? If this is the average Bitcointalk user's reasoning, we are doomed. GMO got to you.
Personal attacks won't shut me up, so you might want to reconsider your communication strategy.


 
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FreeTrade
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January 30, 2014, 12:04:38 PM
 #935

Do I understand correctly that there is a 75% premine on Ethereum?

25% for devs that can't be spent for a year
50% for a foundation

Do I understand furthermore that the Bitcoin raised is going to pay Dev salaries, so if the whole thing blows up - the devs and staff still get paid?


The internet is freedom to communicate without permission. Crypto is freedom to trade without permission.

HODLCoin ANN - Interest rate 0.000015% per block for every balance. Term Deposit Rate 2500% - http://hodlcoin.com/
KoinMaster
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January 30, 2014, 12:06:49 PM
 #936

This really cracks me up

Quote
And because somebody says something this doesn't make it true.

What don't you believe? Charles telling in the video that a couple of guys working on the project used to work for GS in the past or Charles categorically stating on the thread that GS has nothing to do with Ethereum or both?

What this proves is that there is a little bit of trust deficit especially as you are evaluating whether or not to invest your hard earned money. Ultimately nothing anyone is going to say to you is going to make any difference because there will always be a lingering doubt. You have had explicit clarifications from the man in the video himself. There is no real way to solve this other than accepting that the man is telling the truth. If you don't believe and GS bothers you so much then there is only one recourse - don't risk it man.



The sentence you are quoting from me refers to the status quo before Charles' recent statement here on this forum about no GS-connection. I will probably invest in ETH, but not before asking hard questions and not letting been shut up before I get satisfactory answers to them.  Smiley


 
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dabosshun
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January 30, 2014, 12:23:49 PM
 #937

When will they release this coin? What does "Test Release" means? Tongue

Testnet means we can mess around with Ethereum (incomplete) without any of it being "real". So you can download the code, do stuff, possibly even mine, but none of it has any "value". That's on mainnet.

Thanks for the answer! Smiley
But how about the other one: When will this coin be released (not the Test stuff)?

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FreeTrade
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January 30, 2014, 12:31:31 PM
 #938

Lets put the fundraiser in simple terms that everyone can understand.  Everyone should agree agree that all investments should have a proper risk/reward ratio. This project itself has a lot of risk and potentially a lot of reward, so neither can outweigh the other.  Now lets look at this objectively from that perspective.

Ethereum project;
Risk = Very High
Reward = Very High

Founders;
Risk = 0%
Reward=100%

Early adopters;
Risk = 100%
Reward = ?

Put that on a graph.  Does that seem like a fair transaction to you?  

Hmmm - I'm reminded a little of Dragon's Den - The entrepreneur asks for a big investment. The dragons ask what it will be used for. The entrepreneur says 'to pay myself a big salary'. The dragon says 'I'm out'.

I want to see the devs with skin in the game - if their project fails, they shouldn't be sitting on a big BTC cushion.



The internet is freedom to communicate without permission. Crypto is freedom to trade without permission.

HODLCoin ANN - Interest rate 0.000015% per block for every balance. Term Deposit Rate 2500% - http://hodlcoin.com/
lonsharim
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January 30, 2014, 12:37:24 PM
 #939

Thanks for the answer! Smiley
But how about the other one: When will this coin be released (not the Test stuff)?
That's going to take sometime judging by the timelines we have seen already. Previously it was a 2 months IPO (between 1st Feb and March end) after which mining could be done and coins could be exchanged etc. Now that the IPO has been delayed we will have the see the new terms of the IPO when it is announced.
lonsharim
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January 30, 2014, 12:41:21 PM
 #940

The sentence you are quoting from me refers to the status quo before Charles' recent statement here on this forum about no GS-connection. I will probably invest in ETH, but not before asking hard questions and not letting been shut up before I get satisfactory answers to them.  Smiley

Indeed, that is your prerogative Smiley
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