[ANN] Ethereum: Welcome to the Beginning

[TulipMania]

I really like the idea behind this and it may very well be the future, but I can't imagine why you guys are begging for bitcoins in order to create a better version of bitcoin. If you guys lack the motivation and the skills to create this without a $35,000,000 hand out, there are many other people who will be more than happy to do this without you.

10/10 for the most ambitious ploy to get my bitcoins.

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[Microove]

Let's start a new ethereum. I'm down.

[BittBurger]

I don't have opinion yet.

But did any of you see the post by the guy who attended the Miami conference?

He clearly stated that the 30,000 BTC was a self imposed cap on fund raising.  It was not the amount they're claiming they need.

He clearly stated that V named 500 BTC as what they actually need.  If they have that, they can continue with the project.

Stop saying they're demanding 30,000 BTC from investors.  Apparently its not factual.  Or its lacking some information.

If this became a 500 BTC IPO .... would that make people happier? 

---------------------

I need some clarification please. 

Lets say someone invests 10 BTC ...

Why does everyone say they won't get much ROI?  I realize its going to gradually decrease in value, but this seems bewildering to me. 

Nobody is going to invest in something declared ahead of time to decrease in value.  So there's information missing from this response as well.

Someone said you *might* double your money after a few years.  Is that really the likely outcome?  I probably would save my $10,000 in BTC for something else if I have to wait 3-5 years for it to go to a whopping $20,000.  I would appreciate a response to this from someone who actually understands the system.  That eliminates 90% of people in this thread.

-B-

[ThePatient]

^Well for one, do you really think that when mining starts and trading on exchanges happen, that the price will be .1btc for 100 ethers?

Probably not. I highly doubt it will start that high. Right there, you lose money.

[lonsharim]

I don't have opinion yet.

But did any of you see the post by the guy who attended the Miami conference?

He clearly stated that the 30,000 BTC was a self imposed cap on fund raising.  It was not the amount they're claiming they need.

He clearly stated that V named 500 BTC as what they actually need.  If they have that, they can continue with the project.

Stop saying they're demanding 30,000 BTC from investors.  Apparently its not factual.  Or its lacking some information.

If this became a 500 BTC IPO .... would that make people happier? 

It does not matter because there are a number of people who want to run this project to the ground with complete misinformation. They will stick to their claim of 30,000 BTC and 36 million dollars paying no heed to others. They twist every little piece of information that has been listed with their lies and have completely infected this thread. People who are too lazy to read the original posts or comprehend it correctly buy into their lies.

If you like this project you are either a "HUGE" investor, or scum of the earth or a wall street stooge or your are simply getting paid to mislead people. They will bully, intimidate and abuse you until you no longer give a shit about clearing this misinformation. If you want information on this project this is no longer the thread to seek, look for information on their official website and forum, you might be able to decide if you want to invest or not to.

I have no problem with the opinion that the founders are asking for too much (BTC and premine share) but the numbers being thrown around has become the theater of absurd.

[tk808]

I need some clarification please.  

Lets say someone invests 10 BTC ...

Why does everyone say they won't get much ROI?  I realize its going to gradually decrease in value, but this seems bewildering to me.  

Nobody is going to invest in something declared ahead of time to decrease in value.  So there's information missing from this response as well.

Someone said you *might* double your money after a few years.  Is that really the likely outcome?  I probably would save my $10,000 in BTC for something else if I have to wait 3-5 years for it to go to a whopping $20,000.  I would appreciate a response to this from someone who actually understands the system.  That eliminates 90% of people in this thread.

-B-

1) This is Crypto-currency. It's either death or an immediate high valuation. Especially for a technically superior currency. There is so much risk involved, and by pumping 2000-5000usd worth of BTC there better be a pretty fucking good ROI for the chance that was taken. Just like NXT. Would you invest in NXT now? Fuck yeah you would. but those early adopters invested petty amounts of btc. .001btc .0001btc... etc. go look it up

2) The amount given per btc is underwhelming to say the least. ETH is generated by X amount of BTC gained through the IPO, great i support IPOs, so do most people.


The flaws:

  a) They are valuing eth at an extreme price. 1000-2000ETH per btc. @ 30-60million at launch, and forever increasing to hundreds of millions... billions at the mysterous .4% which means .4% of 100%? or 40%? Your initial investment of 1000usd = 1btc gained you 2000eth. 2000eth???

You would be better off buying eth at an exchange. These valuations are absured. This model would work if eth was a 10billion-1000billion dollar market cap.
 
  b) What happens after the IPO. ETH gets to be mined. So immediately, your investment devalues the minutes eth launches, due to more market supply. The massive whales are going to send their 1000 tera hashes and completely nuke the hell out of ETH.


3) Eth has a lot of potential. No one is undermining their technical achievements, i love technical achievements and fully support them in the crypto space. The flaw is the distribution IPO and the transparency in the project.

Who is funding this? Goldmandicks? Who decided on the IPO scheme? ....

[Brilliantrocket]

and for fucks sake can the devs properly explain where they pulled their IPO numbers from? Their ass, thin air?

Please, vitalik, explain to me how and why you decided upon a 1000 - 2000 ether per BTC ratio for these upcoming 60 days.

If I get a good response, maybe I'll invest

And please don't say that the price doesn't matter, only the percentage that you own. If so, I still want to know how the decision was made to price ETH where it is at.

The actual number of Ether you get per BTC is completely inconsequential. They are going to adjust the total number of Ether to be produced based on the amount of BTC received from the IPO. IPO investers will own 50% of all Ether 1 year from the start of mining. Miners will own 25%, and there will be 25% distributed between the founders, a long term expense reserve and bounties. Every year after that, mining will add .4 * (Ether awarded to IPO investors).

There are plenty of reasons to be cautious about investing in Ethereum, but this is not one of them. Would you really feel better if you had 10,000 ether instead of 2000, but the supply was 5x greater? In terms of ROI, it won't make any difference.

[que23]

1 ether = 10^18 wei
1 btc = 10^8 satoshi

[Alphi]

Ok, that is fine and all good and dandy.

My question though for the devs is this: How exactly did they settle upon a ratio of between 1000 - 2000 Ethers per BTC?  I am curious as to that rational, that's all. Why not 100-200 ethers per btc? or 10000 - 20000 ethers per BTC? What was the reasoning?

probably because its closer to todays dollar amount.

you don't want one ether being worth $1000 at least not initially because there will always be some ill informed people who will be turned away from investing based on the price alone.

conversely you don't want the value of Ether to be too small either because then it would create too much dust and be too hard to manage.
extremely low prices also add unnecessary volatility to the market (see penny stocks as an example)

1 ether being worth 50c - $1 is much more in line with a small cap IPO price.

if your going to hand out 10,000 ETH for every 1 BTC then you might as well call them DOGE COIN 2.0 or Zimbabwe Dollars 2.0

[ThePatient]

hmm, seems logical

[msin]

Ok, that is fine and all good and dandy.

My question though for the devs is this: How exactly did they settle upon a ratio of between 1000 - 2000 Ethers per BTC?  I am curious as to that rational, that's all. Why not 100-200 ethers per btc? or 10000 - 20000 ethers per BTC? What was the reasoning?

probably because its closer to todays dollar amount.

you don't want one ether being worth $1000 at least not initially because there will always be some ill informed people who will be turned away from investing based on the price alone.

conversely you don't want the value of Ether to be too small either because then it would create too much dust and be too hard to manage.
extremely low prices also add unnecessary volatility to the market (see penny stocks as an example)

1 ether being worth 50c - $1 is much more in line with a small cap IPO price.

if your going to hand out 10,000 ETH for every 1 BTC then you might as well call them DOGE COIN 2.0 or Zimbabwe Dollars 2.0

1 Ether = $1 is ridiculous, especially when you consider fees.  You will pay $1 per Ether but that will immediately be worth $.5 per Ether because of 50% founder premine and further devaluation from mining in the first year.  It's a shitty way to do things. Also, I wouldn't piss on the dogecoin community unless you want the Jamaican Bobsled team knocking on your door.

[Alphi]

1 Ether = $1 is ridiculous, especially when you consider fees.  You will pay $1 per Ether but that will immediately be worth $.5 per Ether because of 50% founder premine and further devaluation from mining in the first year.  It's a shitty way to do things. Also, I wouldn't piss on the dogecoin community unless you want the Jamaican Bobsled team knocking on your door.

firstly: to avoid making yourself look like an idiotic troll in the future I would advise reading the white paper BEFORE commenting.
the so called "pre mined coins" are the Ether that you are purchasing at the IPO. the so called "founders" end up with only a few percent of the coins over time. the initial distribution model was chosen to be broader than that of Bitcoin.

secondly: DOGE coin was intended to NOT to be taken seriously so why do you taking comments about DOGE seriously?

thirdly: the Jamaican Bob sled team are welcome at my house but unfortunately my house is a bit far from Jamaica and Sochi, perhaps you could organise a fund raiser to fund their flights here?  

[msin]

1 Ether = $1 is ridiculous, especially when you consider fees.  You will pay $1 per Ether but that will immediately be worth $.5 per Ether because of 50% founder premine and further devaluation from mining in the first year.  It's a shitty way to do things. Also, I wouldn't piss on the dogecoin community unless you want the Jamaican Bobsled team knocking on your door.

firstly: to avoid making yourself look like an idiotic troll in the future I would advise reading the white paper BEFORE commenting.
the so called "pre mined coins" are the Ether that you are purchasing at the IPO. the so called "founders" end up with only a few percent of the coins over time. the initial distribution model was chosen to be broader than that of Bitcoin.

secondly: DOGE coin was intended to NOT to be taken seriously so why do you taking comments about DOGE seriously?

thirdly: the Jamaican Bob sled team are welcome at my house but unfortunately my house is a bit far from Jamaica and Sochi, perhaps you could organise a fund raiser to fund their flights here?  

Fourthly: Which white paper, cause they've changed it so many times I can't remember what the original looked like?  Let me guess, your buddies told you about Bitcoin last summer and you thought it was neat, welcome to the party dork.

[Alphi]

erm the one on the front page of the ethereum.org website?

must be too hard for you to find..
here let me paste the link yet again.

http://ethereum.org/ethereum.html

                    After 1 year    After 5 years
Currency units             1.9X    3.5X
Fundraiser participants     52.6%    28.6%
Fiduciary members and early contributors    11.8%    6.42%
Additional pre-launch allocations    2.63%    1.42%
Reserve    11.8%    6.42%
Miners    21.1%    57.1%


PS ive been in Bitcoin for a while.. I just didn't bother with bitcointalk till recently and even now sometimes I wonder why I bother.

[gutshot5820]

This crowdfundraising is a total scam job. Who in their right mind gives 30,000 in untraceable bitcoins to a bunch of total strangers that refuse to file the proper paperwork that is required when crowdfundraising. This legally required filing for crowdfundraising is designed to provide transparency and protect people against fraud. This is not your average coin launch that does a percentage of pre-mine for advertising. They lost their right of anonymity as small time devs just casually creating coins when they asked for 36 million dollars from the public. When you ask for that kind of capital, you MUST file the proper paperwork.

They are asking YOU and the entire bitcoin community to TRUST them and GIVE them 30,000 BTC before launch and make them millions before one coin is mined with absolutely no documentation, no insurance, no bond, no transparency, no regulatory filings. Do not let them deceive you. This is not just another coin launch. When you ask for this type of money, you MUST file the proper paperwork and background checks. Who are these guys? ONE youtube video and they are asking for 30,000 BTC. Let them earn their money like every other dev, mine a small part and let the market decide how much the coins should be worth. Even if you like the tech DO NOT enable this kind of behaviour and let these fukin devs take advantage of the bitcoin community. They want to be millionaires with YOUR money before even launching. They want YOU to take ALL the risk while they become millionaires with ZERO risk. They will be laughing all the way to the bank in their new Lamborghinis and Homes, while you are nervous about your money the entire time. They have ZERO sweat equity or money of their own in this project. Does this seem right to you?

This is not an IPO, they have no sweat equity or principle money of their own involved, no VC in their right mind would invest a penny in their company, and they are skirting every financial regulation you can think of. They are requesting to get paid in untraceable bitcoin so if something happens they are already wealthy and can claim complete deniability. They are protected from civil lawsuit because there is no way to prove their identity and receipt of money, plus no way to collect untraceable bitcoins.

A prospectus without an underwriter and filing with the SEC? What a joke! an IPO without an underwriter and investment bank? Hilarious. The prospectus will not be worth the ink and paper its written on. You might as well call it a marketing brochure. Calling it an IPO is a deception to make it seem more palatable and legal, (fudge advertising with misleading words) nothing could be further from the truth. This is NOT an IPO, it is them begging you to give them 30,000 BTC. IPO....LMAO

If you like the tech, buy it aftermarket. Let these Goldman Sachs advised guys make their money the same way as everyone else, launch it, mine and let the public decide how much it will be worth. If we as a community are stupid enough to give these guys 30,000 bitcoin then guess what will happen?
A herd of new ingenious, I have the best tech entities advised by wall street guys will come out with marketing videos and EVERY coin will want 36 million to launch plus 50% pre-mine. If we give these greedy wall street guys 30,000 btc and 50% pre-mine it will set a new precedent. Wall street guys, Goldman Sachs will introduce a new coin every week demanding more and more and the miners and bitcoin community will get churned and burned. I guarantee you this. This is just the beginning. Dont let them take over the crypto coin community with their greed. If you pay them 30,000 bitcoin and give them 50% pre-mine you are enabling them and giving them more incentive to take over the crypto community.

Ethereum: Welcome to the Beginning - Yes it will be the beginning. The beginning of the end for miners and crypto investors. Do not enable this type of greed into the bitcoin community. You will destroy everything you have worked for by signaling to these type of people that we can be taken advantage of.

[lonsharim]

Fourthly: Which white paper, cause they've changed it so many times I can't remember what the original looked like?  Let me guess, your buddies told you about Bitcoin last summer and you thought it was neat, welcome to the party dork.

The issuance part has been changed once - so to claim it has changed so many times that you can't remember is basically exaggeration. Moreover this is Alpha stage, surely you should know that things are subject to changes and reviews during Alpha stage.

To invest or not to, to buy after the IPO or to mine are all valid options and if you want to participate in the project, depending on your risk you can chose any or all options or none if you don't like what you see. But at least wait until all details are finalized before judging them.

[gutshot5820]

But if you think this has true potential and you decide not to invest "on principle" because you feel like the founders are making too much money, then you're a damn fool.

+1 This.

Are you kidding me?  You will be able to buy MILLIONS of these aftermarket.  That's just the dumbest thing I have read so far.  You are all sadly mistaken if you think this will trade higher at the opening.  You are under the impression that you are buying in at the ground floor like any other coin. NOT!!!! You will have to overcome a 30,000 bitcoin neg from the beginning PLUS 50%  premine plus further devaluation over time due to mining etc...  This will be over priced right from the start and the market will reflect that.  There is a big difference in buying a coin when its dirt cheap vs having to overcome a 36 million or 30,000 btc deficit plus 50% premine.  The Goldman Sachs advisers have sucked all of the future profits out of the tech before its even launched.  This coin will have to jump through hoops and perform miracles before they exceed that barrier.

If you think a starter coin will have a 100 million market cap right from the beginning and you will miss out on something big if you dont buy into the pre-sale, then Goldman Sachs did a awesome job brainwashing you into relieving you of your money.  This coin will not sell out and they will have to unload a ton of the designated pre-sale coin onto the market in order to honor their commitments.  Any coin has the potential to increase in value, but you have to realize, right from the beginning this coin will have already drained 30,000 bitcoin in profits from the community and the remaining of the 50% premine plus more coins from mining etc....  If you think there is another 100,000 bitcoin waiting to take that off your hands for a starter coin that is already getting a ton of negative press, you will be in for a surprise.  If anything it will be undersold and the market will be flooded with these coins and it will sink to its appropriate value before it will rise.

[td services]

I don't have opinion yet.

But did any of you see the post by the guy who attended the Miami conference?

He clearly stated that the 30,000 BTC was a self imposed cap on fund raising.  It was not the amount they're claiming they need.

He clearly stated that V named 500 BTC as what they actually need.  If they have that, they can continue with the project.

Stop saying they're demanding 30,000 BTC from investors.  Apparently its not factual.  Or its lacking some information.

If this became a 500 BTC IPO .... would that make people happier? 

It does not matter because there are a number of people who want to run this project to the ground with complete misinformation. They will stick to their claim of 30,000 BTC and 36 million dollars paying no heed to others. They twist every little piece of information that has been listed with their lies and have completely infected this thread. People who are too lazy to read the original posts or comprehend it correctly buy into their lies.

If you like this project you are either a "HUGE" investor, or scum of the earth or a wall street stooge or your are simply getting paid to mislead people. They will bully, intimidate and abuse you until you no longer give a shit about clearing this misinformation. If you want information on this project this is no longer the thread to seek, look for information on their official website and forum, you might be able to decide if you want to invest or not to.

I have no problem with the opinion that the founders are asking for too much (BTC and premine share) but the numbers being thrown around has become the theater of absurd.

+1 The energy and time some of the detractors have put into repeatedly posting disinformation here makes me suspicious, but at least by announcing the pre-sale publicly here, Ethereum has met its commitment to inform and allow people to participate according to a fixed schedule and investment cap. This will negate future claims that people did not have a chance to invest.

[gutshot5820]

I don't have opinion yet.

But did any of you see the post by the guy who attended the Miami conference?

He clearly stated that the 30,000 BTC was a self imposed cap on fund raising.  It was not the amount they're claiming they need.

He clearly stated that V named 500 BTC as what they actually need.  If they have that, they can continue with the project.

Stop saying they're demanding 30,000 BTC from investors.  Apparently its not factual.  Or its lacking some information.

If this became a 500 BTC IPO .... would that make people happier?  

It does not matter because there are a number of people who want to run this project to the ground with complete misinformation. They will stick to their claim of 30,000 BTC and 36 million dollars paying no heed to others. They twist every little piece of information that has been listed with their lies and have completely infected this thread. People who are too lazy to read the original posts or comprehend it correctly buy into their lies.

If you like this project you are either a "HUGE" investor, or scum of the earth or a wall street stooge or your are simply getting paid to mislead people. They will bully, intimidate and abuse you until you no longer give a shit about clearing this misinformation. If you want information on this project this is no longer the thread to seek, look for information on their official website and forum, you might be able to decide if you want to invest or not to.

I have no problem with the opinion that the founders are asking for too much (BTC and premine share) but the numbers being thrown around has become the theater of absurd.

+1 The energy and time some of the detractors have put into repeatedly posting disinformation here makes me suspicious, but at least by announcing the pre-sale publicly here, Ethereum has met its commitment to inform and allow people to participate according to a fixed schedule and investment cap. This will negate future claims that people did not have a chance to invest.

Do your own research people.  Google "IPO" "prospectus" "Crowdfundraising legal requirements."  Do not listen to what I am saying, do your own research before you invest a dime.  That's all I'm asking is to ignore the hype and do some homework before you invest a dime and make your own decision.  All of the same guys here that are posting and detracting from people who have legitimate questions.  READ their previous posts before you take any value in their opinions.  Most ALL of them have been involved in a launch of a coin that raised money pre-sale.  They have a sincere interest in seeing this coin launch succeed so they can get involved in the next one that will charge a lot of money.  READ their previous posts and you will see most of them have no credibility.  You can read mine and you will see I'm just a casual investor,

[jantenner81]

good luck, sounds interesting...