Bitcoin Forum
October 19, 2017, 07:41:22 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.0.1  [Torrent]. (New!)
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 [43] 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 ... 778 »
  Print  
Author Topic: [ANN] Ethereum: Welcome to the Beginning  (Read 1584212 times)
Herp
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 294


View Profile
January 30, 2014, 01:10:23 AM
 #841



The dilution potential is huge. Set the cap at 5000 BTC and implement a max investment cap to allow many small investors.

+1

+1

At the moment it makes no sense. The risk is way too high. Besides, there are many ways they can make money once they launch, such as with their own exchange or other software.

A 5000-10000 BTC limit with 50 BTC limit per person (at least for the first month) is more sensible. Assuming BTC doesn't collapse, that's $4-8m even at current prices. In six months there is a fair chance that will have doubled. Appreciate that 'a person' is imprecise but it's a start. This way everyone knows what they are getting. This also allows people to share the coin pre-mine which I think is better pr and better for the market post launch. If month 1 goes by and the limit is not reached, then remove the coin limit for month 2.

To flip it round, any investor has to assume a 30,000 BTC valuation, making it already a valuable coin. The upside is immediately limited to the coin being a major success. Anything else and the money is lost. Factor in the minting model and the clones that will appear immediately, which may be a better gamble for those so inclined, and the investment is too high risk.

Note: The 50% pre-mine is not for the coin creators. That's for the coin investors, i.e. Potentially us. The rest is split between year 1 miners (not enough I would say), creators, and funding for dev. Correct me if I am wrong.

I want to support this and like some of those involved, but the fund raising model is wrong. That doesn't mean they won't manage to raise it, but it's raising too many eyebrows amongst investors I work with and it's a poor start to a good concept.

Which is why they've delayed the IPO. They've obviously got the pulse of the community and decided to make adjustments.

When they'll be out with this project, others like Mastercoin or Next will be well underway and have first adopter advantage which can be huge advantage.

In this crypto world 1 month = 1 year. Too little, too late.


███████████████████████████████████████
███████████████████████████████████████
█████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████
████████████████████████
███████████████████████
█████████████████▐████
███████████████████████
████████████████████████
██████████████████████████
█████████████████████████████
███████████████████████████████████████
███████████████████████████████████████
DECENT
FOUNDATION



██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██

██
██
██


[D]ecentralized application
[E]liminated third parties
[C]ontent distribution



██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██

██
██
██


[E]ncrypted & secure
[N]o borders
[T]imeless reputation



██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██

██
██
██



██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██

██
██
██

1508398882
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1508398882

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1508398882
Reply with quote  #2

1508398882
Report to moderator
1508398882
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1508398882

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1508398882
Reply with quote  #2

1508398882
Report to moderator
1508398882
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1508398882

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1508398882
Reply with quote  #2

1508398882
Report to moderator
"You Asked For Change, We Gave You Coins" -- casascius
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1508398882
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1508398882

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1508398882
Reply with quote  #2

1508398882
Report to moderator
1508398882
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1508398882

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1508398882
Reply with quote  #2

1508398882
Report to moderator
Level Coin
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
January 30, 2014, 01:19:21 AM
 #842

Has anyone addressed the security of having a Turing complete foundation? Turing complete means that Ethereum contracts will likely be absolutely loaded with common and proprietary viruses, keyloggers, malware, adware, and a slew of other bad things. I am willing to bet my bank account that in a few short months people will be crying about how they got all their wallets/currency stolen, or their computers are now running slow, or how they blue screen every few minutes after a reboot.

If you want an example of how Turing complete works, load up a peer to peer sharing program and download a bunch of .MOV files and run them. I GUARANTEE that you will get a virus. That's because Quicktime movie files are Turing complete. This is why mkv, mpeg, mpg and avi, while not impervious, are much much safer to download. If you want to invest, mine, and run contracts at the risk of losing everything then go ahead. We will never know for sure how secure Ether is going to be until post release, so asking for money without proof of security is another red flag.


I too would like to know this. Turing complete is dangerous and highly insecure.
arcke
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 46


View Profile
January 30, 2014, 01:26:11 AM
 #843

Has anyone addressed the security of having a Turing complete foundation? Turing complete means that Ethereum contracts will likely be absolutely loaded with common and proprietary viruses, keyloggers, malware, adware, and a slew of other bad things. I am willing to bet my bank account that in a few short months people will be crying about how they got all their wallets/currency stolen, or their computers are now running slow, or how they blue screen every few minutes after a reboot.

If you want an example of how Turing complete works, load up a peer to peer sharing program and download a bunch of .MOV files and run them. I GUARANTEE that you will get a virus. That's because Quicktime movie files are Turing complete. This is why mkv, mpeg, mpg and avi, while not impervious, are much much safer to download. If you want to invest, mine, and run contracts at the risk of losing everything then go ahead. We will never know for sure how secure Ether is going to be until post release, so asking for money without proof of security is another red flag.


I too would like to know this. Turing complete is dangerous and highly insecure.

You are calling every turing complete programming language out there dangerous and highly insecure. You do not seem to know what you are talking about.

OpenPGP: 0x22d7e9cc35375665
BTC: 1FgKz9XjFccf38kZwpJZLGqspUw7hcRP3C
Diaspora: https://pod.orkz.net/u/arcke
CoinHeavy
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 214


View Profile
January 30, 2014, 01:29:03 AM
 #844

For those disillusioned or turned off by the IPO but who are still interested in getting involved, I would recommend mining and developing.  Mining a new coin at launch is always a fun experience, especially for folks who haven't done it before.  Also, once high-level abstractions have been made (ruby gem, python port, etc.) hacking around with some easy code would be a worthwhile evaluation.

I'll be curious to see how the IPO goes once it arrives.  Someone should start a betting pool on what the final amount BTC raised will be (or the size of the initial Ether pool).

The forums on their site are pretty sparse at the moment http://forum.ethereum.org/ but meetups have already started to be organized so I would expect this to change rapidly.
Level Coin
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
January 30, 2014, 01:33:01 AM
 #845

Has anyone addressed the security of having a Turing complete foundation? Turing complete means that Ethereum contracts will likely be absolutely loaded with common and proprietary viruses, keyloggers, malware, adware, and a slew of other bad things. I am willing to bet my bank account that in a few short months people will be crying about how they got all their wallets/currency stolen, or their computers are now running slow, or how they blue screen every few minutes after a reboot.

If you want an example of how Turing complete works, load up a peer to peer sharing program and download a bunch of .MOV files and run them. I GUARANTEE that you will get a virus. That's because Quicktime movie files are Turing complete. This is why mkv, mpeg, mpg and avi, while not impervious, are much much safer to download. If you want to invest, mine, and run contracts at the risk of losing everything then go ahead. We will never know for sure how secure Ether is going to be until post release, so asking for money without proof of security is another red flag.


I too would like to know this. Turing complete is dangerous and highly insecure.

You are calling every turing complete programming language out there dangerous and highly insecure. You do not seem to know what you are talking about.

No I am not, I am talking within the context of a currency backed by people's hard earned money. Do not put words in my mouth. Hackers are already willing to inject malicious software into non monetary applications, I can only imagine what they would come up with if they found an application that is Turing complete, is used to handle millions of dollars, and thanks to the anonymity of crypto, have no chance of being caught. You are diffusing a valid question with irrelevant and illogical retorts. I'd like a short summary of the methods used to prevent people from doing this. What systems are in place to increase security for the end user?
X68N
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 602


View Profile
January 30, 2014, 01:52:55 AM
 #846

Ethanolium,
a bunch of programmers got drunk of premining greed ;-)

arcke
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 46


View Profile
January 30, 2014, 01:56:06 AM
 #847

Has anyone addressed the security of having a Turing complete foundation? Turing complete means that Ethereum contracts will likely be absolutely loaded with common and proprietary viruses, keyloggers, malware, adware, and a slew of other bad things. I am willing to bet my bank account that in a few short months people will be crying about how they got all their wallets/currency stolen, or their computers are now running slow, or how they blue screen every few minutes after a reboot.

If you want an example of how Turing complete works, load up a peer to peer sharing program and download a bunch of .MOV files and run them. I GUARANTEE that you will get a virus. That's because Quicktime movie files are Turing complete. This is why mkv, mpeg, mpg and avi, while not impervious, are much much safer to download. If you want to invest, mine, and run contracts at the risk of losing everything then go ahead. We will never know for sure how secure Ether is going to be until post release, so asking for money without proof of security is another red flag.


I too would like to know this. Turing complete is dangerous and highly insecure.

You are calling every turing complete programming language out there dangerous and highly insecure. You do not seem to know what you are talking about.

No I am not, I am talking within the context of a currency backed by people's hard earned money. Do not put words in my mouth. Hackers are already willing to inject malicious software into non monetary applications, I can only imagine what they would come up with if they found an application that is Turing complete, is used to handle millions of dollars, and thanks to the anonymity of crypto, have no chance of being caught. You are diffusing a valid question with irrelevant and illogical retorts. I'd like a short summary of the methods used to prevent people from doing this. What systems are in place to increase security for the end user?

So far as I can tell the security is based on the blockchain and the POW that will be used in roughly the same way bitcoin does this. The big difference is that ethereum scripts are more powerful. I dont see a reason why this introduces new security considerations, but it is certainly a valid point to consider. And still I say this based on my understanding of the model of ethereum and not on the implementation.

OpenPGP: 0x22d7e9cc35375665
BTC: 1FgKz9XjFccf38kZwpJZLGqspUw7hcRP3C
Diaspora: https://pod.orkz.net/u/arcke
ddink7
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1120



View Profile
January 30, 2014, 01:59:16 AM
 #848



The dilution potential is huge. Set the cap at 5000 BTC and implement a max investment cap to allow many small investors.

+1

+1

At the moment it makes no sense. The risk is way too high. Besides, there are many ways they can make money once they launch, such as with their own exchange or other software.

A 5000-10000 BTC limit with 50 BTC limit per person (at least for the first month) is more sensible. Assuming BTC doesn't collapse, that's $4-8m even at current prices. In six months there is a fair chance that will have doubled. Appreciate that 'a person' is imprecise but it's a start. This way everyone knows what they are getting. This also allows people to share the coin pre-mine which I think is better pr and better for the market post launch. If month 1 goes by and the limit is not reached, then remove the coin limit for month 2.

To flip it round, any investor has to assume a 30,000 BTC valuation, making it already a valuable coin. The upside is immediately limited to the coin being a major success. Anything else and the money is lost. Factor in the minting model and the clones that will appear immediately, which may be a better gamble for those so inclined, and the investment is too high risk.

Note: The 50% pre-mine is not for the coin creators. That's for the coin investors, i.e. Potentially us. The rest is split between year 1 miners (not enough I would say), creators, and funding for dev. Correct me if I am wrong.

I want to support this and like some of those involved, but the fund raising model is wrong. That doesn't mean they won't manage to raise it, but it's raising too many eyebrows amongst investors I work with and it's a poor start to a good concept.

I completely agree with per-person limits. But how would you enforce them? That's the problem with bitcoin--it's pseudo-anonymous. A person could just create 5 addresses and send the 50 from each address. The only real alternative I could see would be some form of identity verification a-la-coinbase...but I can only imagine how unpopular that would be!

A workaround might be to do like XCP and limit the number of coins that can come from one address. It would take a bit longer to create wallets, transfer coins to those wallets, and then transfer to the exodus address...although I fear someone could write a script to do just that.

Dash - Digital Cash
https://www.dash.org/
Herp
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 294


View Profile
January 30, 2014, 01:59:52 AM
 #849

Ethanolium,
a bunch of programmers got drunk of premining greed ;-)

It's what happens when you let ex Goldman Sucks viruses run the show.


███████████████████████████████████████
███████████████████████████████████████
█████████████████████████████
██████████████████████████
████████████████████████
███████████████████████
█████████████████▐████
███████████████████████
████████████████████████
██████████████████████████
█████████████████████████████
███████████████████████████████████████
███████████████████████████████████████
DECENT
FOUNDATION



██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██

██
██
██


[D]ecentralized application
[E]liminated third parties
[C]ontent distribution



██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██

██
██
██


[E]ncrypted & secure
[N]o borders
[T]imeless reputation



██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██

██
██
██



██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██
██

██
██
██

canth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1442



View Profile
January 30, 2014, 02:47:40 AM
 #850

<snip>

Also please be aware that LeoC sent this message to me via a PM:

Quote
10 BTC and I'll remove my posts even though they are factual and won't make any more. 15 and I will change my tune and promote.

eMunie have already lost hundreds of BTC and were forced to cancel their IPO when I called them out here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=411366.0

I was going to create a similar thread regarding Ethereum, unless you send the above amounts.

I'd suggest you think long and hard about this. Which would you prefer to lose, 10 BTC or 1000, your choice.

1C7MPUTTWQjinfbRcQtW6HAc4ips7wMuiJ

Please ignore the FUD. We are going to make every attempt to address all concerns. In many cases, with Vitalik and Me directly.

Thanks for sharing this with us and I hope that you hit the report button on this scamster. It's like blackmail, only missing the threat of any actual dirty secrets.

Level Coin
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 28


View Profile
January 30, 2014, 02:49:20 AM
 #851

So far as I can tell the security is based on the blockchain and the POW that will be used in roughly the same way bitcoin does this. The big difference is that ethereum scripts are more powerful. I dont see a reason why this introduces new security considerations, but it is certainly a valid point to consider. And still I say this based on my understanding of the model of ethereum and not on the implementation.

This does not answer the question. What does the blockchain and the PoW aspect have to do with the scripting portion (which is what I was referring to)? Vitalik himself has said that it is possible to create a contract within a contract, likely ad infinitum. This means that a malicious contract could be called by a non malicious contract. These non malicious contracts will essentially be used to masquerade the malicious one. And the layers could make identification much more difficult. The typical end user is highly unlikely to detect such a complex script and by the time someone with the knowhow to spot the malicious code calls them out it will likely have already claimed many victims.
LeoC
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
January 30, 2014, 02:56:51 AM
 #852


Thanks for sharing this with us and I hope that you hit the report button on this scamster. It's like blackmail, only missing the threat of any actual dirty secrets.

It ain't FUD if what I said were FACTS. I gave the guy a chance to get rid of me but he didn't take it and instead decided to break the forum rules by posting a private message publicly. Ethereum will cost investors, miners, and just about everyone involved with the exception of the founders, their hard earned money. Turing complete = you open a contract then find your wallet missing. Instead of reassuring everyone that their money is safe, the idiotic dev decided to change the subject and use ad hominem. What does that tell you, because to me it sounds iffy lol. Who would want to invest in someone like that? Also as everyone has already been constantly mentioning, this IPO is rigged.

Invest with great care
gutshot5820
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
January 30, 2014, 03:01:51 AM
 #853

So far judging from the responses on all Ethereum forums here is what I see.  Most of the people posting on this forum and almost all the people that were at the Miami Conference praising Ethereum are developers.  There is genuine potential for this platform to be groundbreaking if done right.  The devs that are shilling for the Ethereum to succeed have either been involved in pre-fund raising before and want to see this succeed for selfish reasons or they believe in Ethereum  and are planning to monetize this platform in the future and want to see Ethereum succeed for selfish reasons.

Then you have the other half of the devs that are not involved with the project, see there are too many risks involved and fearful of wall street taking over the crypto industry.

Where I feel there is a severe disconnect is that the majority of opinions on this forum, Reddit, etc.. are developers and they will constitute less that 1% of the total amount of investment capital that Ethereum is trying to raise.  

If you go to a Conference where the entire majority of reporters have a dev background, you are basically looking at the very definition of a biased opinion and reporting.  Just because a small group of technology advanced individuals are excited about the possibility of the tech, doesn't actually mean equate a great investment.

Then you have the 99% of the general crypto population that are only interested in making a quick profit on this coin.  They are not particularly interested in this new coin/platform and don't really care about the technology and only if there will be enough ROI to justify an initial investment into the pre-sale.  Initially, there was a lot of hype on this coin that drew a lot of interest, but crypto investors cannot be duped.  They realize they are not getting into this investment at the ground floor level and with the amount of money/bitcoin that Ethereum is trying to raise before launch, there will have to be 100 million dollar market cap for them to see a profit.  Long-term is the only reason to invest.  There are few pump and dump scenarios that will work with this investment structure that Ethereum is proposing because all the initial "pump" profit is being taken out of the market and into Ethereum's pocket right from the beginning.

Long term I see a lot of risks involved with pre-sale investment.
1/ There is risk of immediate loss of equity once it hits an exchange.
2/ There is risk of dilution
3/ There is risk of the company dissolving or bankrupting (however small)
4/  There is risk of this becoming vaporware
5/  There is risk that it will be forked and cloned
6/  There is risk that there will be too many security holes
7/  There is risk that a newer and better technology with greater funding and transparency will enter the market in due time
8/  There is risk that the altcoin (or platform if you want to call it that) crypto market will crash in a few years
9/   There is a risk (and I personally feel strongly about this) that the price will be considerably lower once it hits an exchange and falls to what the market feels is an appropriate price for the amount of risk and dilution involved with the project.

Of course, I could be wrong and Ethereum totally sells out and there will be another 100 million worth of btc bid aftermarket.  But do you really think that crypto investors are dying to jump in to give anyone 100 million on vaporware on a diluted investment? ALL you have to look at is the forum boards and ignore the developers who are shilling for the product to succeed.  There is a huge outcry against the current investment scheme.  Why are people so vehemently against Ethereum's structure?  Because they feel it has a possibility to be an asset to the bitcoin community but not the way its currently structured.  

So in final words, whether you believe in the tech or not, all you have to ask yourself is this.  Would I be better off investing in the pre-sale or should I invest aftermarket?

There is absolutely only ONE reason you should buy into the pre-sale, if you believe that it will be so much oversold and the market will not feel that it's diluted to the point where there is another huge group of buyers willing to take it off your hands and xxx times a return on your investment right from the beginning of launch.

Now I submit to you a few simple reasons why you should wait until aftermarket to buy-in.

1/  You NEGATE any risk mentioned earlier in the post and you only have to consider risk/reward.  If I buy in pre-sale what risk do I take vs the reward I will have for taking that risk.  Do you think there is greater chance that the market price will be higher than lower from the pre-sale price?  And to what degree do you need to see Ethereum trade at to make this pre-sale investment worth it for you.
2/  Time value - What could have I done with this money invested in Ethereum that will be locked up from pre-sale until launch on a legitimate market.  During those two or three months, you could have that money invested in Bitcoin (which has a lot less downside and at the current level has a good chance of increasing in value) or a dozen new altcoins that will be launching that as you can see we are in the midst of a crypto coin boom.  How much money will you have lost by freezing your money up in Ethereum, when it could be actively invested in other more profitable ventures where the initial investment is not severely diluted?
3/  During the time you buy into the pre-sale (several months) and the time you are able to trade your ETH on an exchange, I guarantee you there will several new teams announcing a new platform or coin that will get much better press with a better investment structure.  You take the risk of obsolescence even before the coin launches.
4/ By buying into the coin pre-sale and making it a success you encourage Wall Street to take over the crypto coin market and in the future you may see an environment where every new coin launch will be diluted and structured in a way that only Wall Street will increase their millions and the RISK will all be burdened by the crypto community.  Ethereum will set a new precedent and if you think this will not happen, think again.  Miners and crypto investors will be locked out of the early "pump" profits while Wall Street makes millions and we will take all the RISK. The early pre-sale investors will essentially be the bagholders.
5/ Here is the most important reason to wait until it hits an exchange to buy into Ethereum, you NEGATE all the risk I mentioned before and plus you do not enable this kind of launch in the future.  There is a good chance that you will be able to buy it lower than the offering price of approx a dollar an ETH. and if the price rises a bit, you can still buy in at the pre-sale price or a little bit higher.  The only reason you should be buying this pre-sale is if you believe that there is another 100 million waiting in line to buy ETH and there is no risk involved.  You have absolutely nothing to lose by waiting and a lot at stake by buying and enabling this type of coin pre-sale launch.

Now, over the next few days I imagine Ethereum will hire a Marketing PR, they will hype and pump the tech and coin and gloss it over to make it look like they invented the wheel.  They will cast out all the doubters and call them "FUD."  Vitalik will come online and answer questions about the tech.  But I say to you forget about all that.  Don't get caught up in the tech, we all  know the tech has the potential to be amazing.  Look at the investment structure.  Dont let Vitalik use excuses like this is the best way to avoid "whales" from taking over the market.  That is so naive.  Think!!! Regardless of the tech, is it more beneficial to me, considering risk vs reward, to buy pre-sale or buy aftermarket?

If you choose pre-sale, then good luck, all I'm asking you is to forget the tech and the chatter from the devs and focus on the pros and con of the investment only.  Live long and prosper!!




canth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1442



View Profile
January 30, 2014, 03:03:13 AM
 #854


Thanks for sharing this with us and I hope that you hit the report button on this scamster. It's like blackmail, only missing the threat of any actual dirty secrets.

It ain't FUD if what I said were FACTS. I gave the guy a chance to get rid of me but he didn't take it and instead decided to break the forum rules by posting a private message publicly. Ethereum will cost investors, miners, and just about everyone involved with the exception of the founders, their hard earned money. Turing complete = you open a contract then find your wallet missing. Instead of reassuring everyone that their money is safe, the idiotic dev decided to change the subject and use ad hominem. What does that tell you, because to me it sounds iffy lol.

Presuming that you had any relevant 'facts' (doubtful, IMO), you've already shown your true colors and chosen to go for personal profit via threats rather than contribute to the community. I think that speaks volumes about your motive and character. Best of luck convincing others that you participate in any way for their benefit.

LeoC
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 154


View Profile
January 30, 2014, 03:05:55 AM
 #855


Thanks for sharing this with us and I hope that you hit the report button on this scamster. It's like blackmail, only missing the threat of any actual dirty secrets.

It ain't FUD if what I said were FACTS. I gave the guy a chance to get rid of me but he didn't take it and instead decided to break the forum rules by posting a private message publicly. Ethereum will cost investors, miners, and just about everyone involved with the exception of the founders, their hard earned money. Turing complete = you open a contract then find your wallet missing. Instead of reassuring everyone that their money is safe, the idiotic dev decided to change the subject and use ad hominem. What does that tell you, because to me it sounds iffy lol.

Presuming that you had any relevant 'facts' (doubtful, IMO), you've already shown your true colors and chosen to go for personal profit via threats rather than contribute to the community. I think that speaks volumes about your motive and character. Best of luck convincing others that you participate in any way for their benefit.

The facts were that Turing complete = malicious contracts. Another fact is that there is no where listed how much the devs are allowed to "get paid" using the IPO BTC. Yet another fact was that dagger was flawed and they had to make last minute changes to the whole entire system. Yet another fact is now people are no longer investing via the whitepaper because the change were so large that the whitepaper is no longer relevant, so essentially there is no whitepaper. Yet another fact is they use clever wording to describe who exactly has selling limits, so there might very well be many "founders" that can dump day 1. Doesn't matter what my motives are. Seriously who gives a shit about the community, this isn't facebook kid. Crypto was created for one reason, as an alternative to fiat. We are talking about money here, and money talks. Go ahead and send them all your money, I will die laughing when two things happen to you, one, you instantly lose 50% of your investment on day one, and two you get your wallet stolen when you try to run a contract you thought was legit. Theres a sucker born every minute.

If you choose pre-sale, then good luck

Sums up Ethereum quite well. A fool and his money are soon parted.
ddink7
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1120



View Profile
January 30, 2014, 03:35:05 AM
 #856


Thanks for sharing this with us and I hope that you hit the report button on this scamster. It's like blackmail, only missing the threat of any actual dirty secrets.

I gave the guy a chance to get rid of me but he didn't take it and instead decided to break the forum rules by posting a private message publicly.


You try to blackmail the guy for $8000 and then accuse HIM of breaking forum rules? WTF?

Dash - Digital Cash
https://www.dash.org/
Brilliantrocket
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 588


A Decentralized Social Marketplace


View Profile
January 30, 2014, 03:38:19 AM
 #857

Unless there are serious changes to the IPO, I won't be investing. Poor communication from the devs, a seemingly lackadaisical approach towards the very people who would enable Ethereum. Very important things ( algorithm, IPO structure etc) are altered often. If you're going to do an IPO, at least have the basics figured out . Otherwise, what are you asking money for? Hopes and dreams?

I think Ethereum is off to a bad start for the following reason. The devs announced it prematurely. I'm sure that Vitalik was excited to get the word out, but I feel this decision led to some negative consequences. Public perception of the developers' reliability and integrity have been hurt. What's the point of announcing a currency for which you haven't even decided on an algorithm?  At this point there are far too many uncertainties for the prudent investor to invest. Furthermore, not only is is a high risk investment, but the IPO structure looks almost as if its been designed to limit an investor's profit. If I'm investing in something as high risk as Ethereum, I want a handsome reward if things pan out well. However, the inflation present in Ethereum severely limits your potential return. I'd rate Ethereum (Under the current IPO structure)as very high risk, low to medium reward.



        ▄██▄▄▄▄▄▄██
      ▄███████████▄
     ██████▀▀████████▄
    ███████▄▄ ▀▀
    ▀██████████████▄▄▄
     ▀█████████████████▄
        ▀▀██▀████████████
          ██ ██ ▐█████████
  ▄▄███▄▄ ██ ██ ▐█████████
 ███████████▄█████████████
▐████████████████████████▀
▐███████████████████████▀
 ▀███████████████████▀▀
   ▀▀████████████
       ▀▀███████
           ▀▀██

.
Soma
║║
║║
║║
.
║║
║║
║║
║║
║║
║║
║║
║║
║║



             ▄██▄
     ▄      ▐████   ▄▄
   █████     ██████████
    █████████████████▀
 ▄████████████▀████▌
██████████     ▀████     
 ▀▀   █████     ██████████
      ▀████▌▄████████████▀
    ▄▄▄███████████████▌
   ██████████▀    ▐████
    ▀▀▀  ███
█▌     ▀▀▀
         ▀███▀



                 ▄████▄▄    ▄
██             ████████████▀
████▄         █████████████▀
▀████████▄▄   █████████████
▄▄█████████████████████████
██████████████████████████
  ▀██████████████████████
   █████████████████████
    ▀█████████████████▀
      ▄█████████████▀
▄▄███████████████▀
   ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀



       ▄▄▄▄▄▄
    ▄████████
    █████▀▀▀▀
   ▐████
   ▐████
████████████
████████████
   ▐████
   ▐████
   ▐████
   ▐████
Visin
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 239



View Profile
January 30, 2014, 03:42:11 AM
 #858

I would like to comment on behalf of eMunie and state that LeoC is a low life, that we have had a run in with already.

He thinks that he can blackmail people into doing what he says, what he doesn't know about his long trail of identities on the web.

Whoever that was affected by LeoC please message me and we can take swift action.

[and for the record, we have not noticed any slight slowdown in investments, so disregard his threats]

ciscokid
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 35


View Profile
January 30, 2014, 03:49:45 AM
 #859

So far judging from the responses on all Ethereum forums here is what I see.  Most of the people posting on this forum and almost all the people that were at the Miami Conference praising Ethereum are developers.  There is genuine potential for this platform to be groundbreaking if done right.  The devs that are shilling for the Ethereum to succeed have either been involved in pre-fund raising before and want to see this succeed for selfish reasons or they believe in Ethereum  and are planning to monetize this platform in the future and want to see Ethereum succeed for selfish reasons.

Then you have the other half of the devs that are not involved with the project, see there are too many risks involved and fearful of wall street taking over the crypto industry.

Where I feel there is a severe disconnect is that the majority of opinions on this forum, Reddit, etc.. are developers and they will constitute less that 1% of the total amount of investment capital that Ethereum is trying to raise.  

If you go to a Conference where the entire majority of reporters have a dev background, you are basically looking at the very definition of a biased opinion and reporting.  Just because a small group of technology advanced individuals are excited about the possibility of the tech, doesn't actually mean equate a great investment.

Then you have the 99% of the general crypto population that are only interested in making a quick profit on this coin.  They are not particularly interested in this new coin/platform and don't really care about the technology and only if there will be enough ROI to justify an initial investment into the pre-sale.  Initially, there was a lot of hype on this coin that drew a lot of interest, but crypto investors cannot be duped.  They realize they are not getting into this investment at the ground floor level and with the amount of money/bitcoin that Ethereum is trying to raise before launch, there will have to be 100 million dollar market cap for them to see a profit.  Long-term is the only reason to invest.  There are few pump and dump scenarios that will work with this investment structure that Ethereum is proposing because all the initial "pump" profit is being taken out of the market and into Ethereum's pocket right from the beginning.

Long term I see a lot of risks involved with pre-sale investment.
1/ There is risk of immediate loss of equity once it hits an exchange.
2/ There is risk of dilution
3/ There is risk of the company dissolving or bankrupting (however small)
4/  There is risk of this becoming vaporware
5/  There is risk that it will be forked and cloned
6/  There is risk that there will be too many security holes
7/  There is risk that a newer and better technology with greater funding and transparency will enter the market in due time
8/  There is risk that the altcoin (or platform if you want to call it that) crypto market will crash in a few years
9/   There is a risk (and I personally feel strongly about this) that the price will be considerably lower once it hits an exchange and falls to what the market feels is an appropriate price for the amount of risk and dilution involved with the project.

Of course, I could be wrong and Ethereum totally sells out and there will be another 100 million worth of btc bid aftermarket.  But do you really think that crypto investors are dying to jump in to give anyone 100 million on vaporware on a diluted investment? ALL you have to look at is the forum boards and ignore the developers who are shilling for the product to succeed.  There is a huge outcry against the current investment scheme.  Why are people so vehemently against Ethereum's structure?  Because they feel it has a possibility to be an asset to the bitcoin community but not the way its currently structured.  

So in final words, whether you believe in the tech or not, all you have to ask yourself is this.  Would I be better off investing in the pre-sale or should I invest aftermarket?

There is absolutely only ONE reason you should buy into the pre-sale, if you believe that it will be so much oversold and the market will not feel that it's diluted to the point where there is another huge group of buyers willing to take it off your hands and xxx times a return on your investment right from the beginning of launch.

Now I submit to you a few simple reasons why you should wait until aftermarket to buy-in.

1/  You NEGATE any risk mentioned earlier in the post and you only have to consider risk/reward.  If I buy in pre-sale what risk do I take vs the reward I will have for taking that risk.  Do you think there is greater chance that the market price will be higher than lower from the pre-sale price?  And to what degree do you need to see Ethereum trade at to make this pre-sale investment worth it for you.
2/  Time value - What could have I done with this money invested in Ethereum that will be locked up from pre-sale until launch on a legitimate market.  During those two or three months, you could have that money invested in Bitcoin (which has a lot less downside and at the current level has a good chance of increasing in value) or a dozen new altcoins that will be launching that as you can see we are in the midst of a crypto coin boom.  How much money will you have lost by freezing your money up in Ethereum, when it could be actively invested in other more profitable ventures where the initial investment is not severely diluted?
3/  During the time you buy into the pre-sale (several months) and the time you are able to trade your ETH on an exchange, I guarantee you there will several new teams announcing a new platform or coin that will get much better press with a better investment structure.  You take the risk of obsolescence even before the coin launches.
4/ By buying into the coin pre-sale and making it a success you encourage Wall Street to take over the crypto coin market and in the future you may see an environment where every new coin launch will be diluted and structured in a way that only Wall Street will increase their millions and the RISK will all be burdened by the crypto community.  Ethereum will set a new precedent and if you think this will not happen, think again.  Miners and crypto investors will be locked out of the early "pump" profits while Wall Street makes millions and we will take all the RISK. The early pre-sale investors will essentially be the bagholders.
5/ Here is the most important reason to wait until it hits an exchange to buy into Ethereum, you NEGATE all the risk I mentioned before and plus you do not enable this kind of launch in the future.  There is a good chance that you will be able to buy it lower than the offering price of approx a dollar an ETH. and if the price rises a bit, you can still buy in at the pre-sale price or a little bit higher.  The only reason you should be buying this pre-sale is if you believe that there is another 100 million waiting in line to buy ETH and there is no risk involved.  You have absolutely nothing to lose by waiting and a lot at stake by buying and enabling this type of coin pre-sale launch.

Now, over the next few days I imagine Ethereum will hire a Marketing PR, they will hype and pump the tech and coin and gloss it over to make it look like they invented the wheel.  They will cast out all the doubters and call them "FUD."  Vitalik will come online and answer questions about the tech.  But I say to you forget about all that.  Don't get caught up in the tech, we all  know the tech has the potential to be amazing.  Look at the investment structure.  Dont let Vitalik use excuses like this is the best way to avoid "whales" from taking over the market.  That is so naive.  Think!!! Regardless of the tech, is it more beneficial to me, considering risk vs reward, to buy pre-sale or buy aftermarket?

If you choose pre-sale, then good luck, all I'm asking you is to forget the tech and the chatter from the devs and focus on the pros and con of the investment only.  Live long and prosper!!







Thanks for putting it into perspective. After careful consideration I will most likely not invest in the pre-sale. I also don't like how the devs get millions of dollars up front and take no risk on their own. Basically they win no matter what happens.
pjr77
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 188


View Profile
January 30, 2014, 03:55:11 AM
 #860

http://blog.ethereum.org/?p=100/conference-testnet-and-fundraiser-updates

There you go
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 [43] 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 ... 778 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!