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Author Topic: [ANN] Ethereum: Welcome to the Beginning  (Read 1584813 times)
_ingsoc
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January 29, 2014, 07:53:41 PM
 #801

I can compare only Nxt and Ethereum:

1. Nxt is simple (for casual programmers), Ethereum is hardcore (for hardcore programmers). I think most of coders will choose Nxt if noone creates a simple Ethereum Contract Creation Kit.
2. Nxt can process 1000s transactions per second (coz of absence of scripts and Transparent Forging), Ethereum can't process too many transactions but they r much richer. I think these platforms would go on par if Nxt didn't have Transparent Forging. With TF Nxt will win.
3. Nxt has fixed supply of coins, Ethereum will be inflationary for a long period of time. Ordinary people prefer non-inflationary currencies.
4. Nxt is 100% PoS, Ethereum is PoW + PoS, so the latter is not so "green".

These r just a few points that came to my mind.

Please stop trying to talk up Nxt at every opportunity in this thread. You forgot to mention Nxt is vulnerable to nothing-at-stake attacks, poorly implemented in Java (known for security!), you can't store anything in an offline wallet, and the currency is owned by 71 people who sell it to everyone else. Just get real if you want to talk things up.

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January 29, 2014, 07:58:48 PM
 #802

We've done two things. First, we have hired a director of communications to help address as many questions as possible and he will be coming online as soon as possible (most likely Friday). Second, we are going to hold some form of AMA and build a complete FAQ.

Vitalik and I will also be trying to do some sort of regular Q&A session to fully address everyone's concerns. I'm really sorry for the delays in communication. Most of the team was in Miami and we were hit so hard down there with work it was nearly impossible to regularly check things here.

The best part about the bitcoin community is that they are very smart and have great ideas. I really do value a lot of the feedback we've received here and I make a promise we'll answer as much as we can as soon as we can. This said, it will take some time as the queue is really long, but hopefully we can at least address a lot of the core questions within the next week or so.

We are also releasing the centralized proof of concept testnet on Feb 1st and making an announcement about how we plan to better engage the cryptocurrency community on Feb. 20th or so. Please check out the code, look at the protocol specs, the high level language and the compiler we have, and write some contracts. Costa and co are building a full clearinghouse on top of the testnet.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your enormous patience and I look forward to hearing from you all soon.  

Realised I pushed your post onto the previous page without much visibility. Is there any word on what's going on with the fundraiser? Even just a ballpark date range if you can't comment on terms just yet.

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January 29, 2014, 07:59:19 PM
 #803

Can someone post straightforward pro's and con's of Ethereum against Bitcoin & NXT.

If you're using technical terminology, please try and explain in layman's terms.

I would really appreciate that, thanks!

I can compare only Nxt and Ethereum:

1. Nxt is simple (for casual programmers), Ethereum is hardcore (for hardcore programmers). I think most of coders will choose Nxt if noone creates a simple Ethereum Contract Creation Kit.
2. Nxt can process 1000s transactions per second (coz of absence of scripts and Transparent Forging), Ethereum can't process too many transactions but they r much richer. I think these platforms would go on par if Nxt didn't have Transparent Forging. With TF Nxt will win.
3. Nxt has fixed supply of coins, Ethereum will be inflationary for a long period of time. Ordinary people prefer non-inflationary currencies.
4. Nxt is 100% PoS, Ethereum is PoW + PoS, so the latter is not so "green".

These r just a few points that came to my mind.
Alright, that cleared some things up!

Will Ethereum ever be able to process more transactions, and what do you mean with that they are richer?

Thanks again, I really appreciate it! Smiley
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January 29, 2014, 08:00:35 PM
 #804

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Thank you for posting that here as well, in case people miss it. We've maintained a list of community questions in post #634. Is it possible to get some direct answers on these at one point? I think it covers most of the concerns people have here.

We've done two things. First, we have hired a director of communications to help address as many questions as possible and he will be coming online as soon as possible (most likely Friday). Second, we are going to hold some form of AMA and build a complete FAQ.

Vitalik and I will also be trying to do some sort of regular Q&A session to fully address everyone's concerns. I'm really sorry for the delays in communication. Most of the team was in Miami and we were hit so hard down there with work it was nearly impossible to regularly check things here.

The best part about the bitcoin community is that they are very smart and have great ideas. I really do value a lot of the feedback we've received here and I make a promise we'll answer as much as we can as soon as we can. This said, it will take some time as the queue is really long, but hopefully we can at least address a lot of the core questions within the next week or so.

We are also releasing the centralized proof of concept testnet on Feb 1st and making an announcement about how we plan to better engage the cryptocurrency community on Feb. 20th or so. Please check out the code, look at the protocol specs, the high level language and the compiler we have, and write some contracts. Costa and co are building a full clearinghouse on top of the testnet.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your enormous patience and I look forward to hearing from you all soon.  

That's different Charles, I'm looking forward to seeing your responses! I even plan to invest in Ethereum, if our questions will be addressed openly and honestly and if the IPO/lauch/inflationary conditions will be changed to more fair terms for us investors.


 
 
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January 29, 2014, 08:04:48 PM
 #805

Please stop trying to talk up Nxt at every opportunity in this thread. You forgot to mention Nxt is vulnerable to nothing-at-stake attacks, poorly implemented in Java (known for security!), you can't store anything in an offline wallet, and the currency is owned by 71 people who sell it to everyone else. Just get real if you want to talk things up.

Right. And I forgot to mention that Satoshi alone owns 2M BTC, Bitcoin's carbon footprint is the same as London's one, and that PoW is the only way to prove anything.

Please, stop bothering me with ur troll sentences.
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January 29, 2014, 08:07:27 PM
 #806

Will Ethereum ever be able to process more transactions, and what do you mean with that they are richer?

Yes, Ethereum will be able to process more transactions. Moore's law says that.
Ethereum has Turing-complete language and u can code anything using this language. In Nxt u r limited to what Nxt core devs allow u to do.
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January 29, 2014, 08:10:21 PM
 #807

Please stop trying to talk up Nxt at every opportunity in this thread. You forgot to mention Nxt is vulnerable to nothing-at-stake attacks, poorly implemented in Java (known for security!), you can't store anything in an offline wallet, and the currency is owned by 71 people who sell it to everyone else. Just get real if you want to talk things up.

Right. And I forgot to mention that Satoshi alone owns 2M BTC, Bitcoin's carbon footprint is the same as London's one, and that PoW is the only way to prove anything.

Please, stop bothering me with ur troll sentences.
I actually love NXT of what I've seen so far and I can only say congrats to those 71 early investors, I wish I was one of them.
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January 29, 2014, 08:10:42 PM
 #808

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That's different Charles, I'm looking forward to seeing your responses! I even plan to invest in Ethereum, if our questions will be addressed openly and honestly and if the IPO/lauch/inflationary conditions will be changed to more fair terms for us investors.

I will try as hard as I can. Ethereum is not for everyone, but I think it brings both a wonderful set of innovations to this space and also a very attract value proposition to speculators. I hope you can enjoy one or both. Ultimately, we will be spending a lot of time communication our goals, vision and the core aspects of Ethereum to as many people as possible. The difficulty is that our infrastructure wasn't setup to receive 1,000s of emails, over a hundred pages of forum threads and all the other communications within a two week spread.

We were even in Wired http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2014/01/ethereum/. I make a promise that we will work harder and hopefully get everything sorted out in a few weeks max. As for the fundraiser, innovation requires fuel and thus we'll make sure we get to it as soon as we can as well. Our goal is to be as fair and equitable as possible.

The revolution begins with the mind and ends with the heart. Knowledge for all, accessible to all and shared by all
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January 29, 2014, 08:11:02 PM
 #809

As for PoW/PoS, we are agile, we can use hybrid PoS/PoW if we want.

Our prototype PoS algorithm, while not perfect, is one of the few that is immune to nothing-at-stake and computation/stake tradeoff attacks:

http://blog.ethereum.org/?p=39/slasher-a-punitive-proof-of-stake-algorithm

Also, Ethereum script may be "hardcore", but the CLL is not; it's basically stripped-down Python. We'll release a CLL -> Ethereum script compiler soon, watch out for that.

Argumentum ad lunam: the fallacy that because Bitcoin's price is rising really fast the currency must be a speculative bubble and/or Ponzi scheme.
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January 29, 2014, 08:13:04 PM
 #810

Right. And I forgot to mention that Satoshi alone owns 2M BTC, Bitcoin's carbon footprint is the same as London's one, and that PoW is the only way to prove anything.

Please, stop bothering me with ur troll sentences.

Half this thread was hijacked by Nxt zealots. If I instigated this argument and someone just wanted some answers, then I'm sorry. It would just be nice to actually to talk about Nxt honestly for once. People don't understand the criticism of it, and the serious issues it has. But this is not the thread for it, so I'll can it.

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January 29, 2014, 08:15:40 PM
 #811

Will Ethereum ever be able to process more transactions, and what do you mean with that they are richer?

Yes, Ethereum will be able to process more transactions. Moore's law says that.
Ethereum has Turing-complete language and u can code anything using this language. In Nxt u r limited to what Nxt core devs allow u to do.
Alright that's really interesting,

What is the approximate transactions per second at launch, if it was launched today?

And what do you mean by that the transaction of Ethereum is richer than NXT, whats it's implications?  
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January 29, 2014, 08:19:08 PM
 #812

As for PoW/PoS, we are agile, we can use hybrid PoS/PoW if we want.

Our prototype PoS algorithm, while not perfect, is one of the few that is immune to nothing-at-stake and computation/stake tradeoff attacks:

http://blog.ethereum.org/?p=39/slasher-a-punitive-proof-of-stake-algorithm

Also, Ethereum script may be "hardcore", but the CLL is not; it's basically stripped-down Python. We'll release a CLL -> Ethereum script compiler soon, watch out for that.
Thanks Vitalik, I must say that I'm really impressed of what you guys are doing!
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January 29, 2014, 08:21:43 PM
 #813

Half this thread was hijacked by Nxt zealots. If I instigated this argument and someone just wanted some answers, then I'm sorry. It would just be nice to actually to talk about Nxt honestly for once. People don't understand the criticism of it, and the serious issues it has. But this is not the thread for it, so I'll can it.

I don't like zealots too. I hope this - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg4821498#msg4821498 - will prove that I'm not one of them. Now back to Ethereum.
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January 29, 2014, 08:24:01 PM
 #814

I only see TWO active people and a lot of passive Payrolls to pay the initial investor's money.

Maybe Raising 30,000 BTC is very easy nowadays compare to CoinBase USD 25 millions, which they have proper documentation and legal obligations and projections.

Or Maybe there are a lot of people with a lot of Bitcoin to throw.

Anyway, I would be interested to invest 0.1 BTC to raise up to 500 BTC for such noble project.
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January 29, 2014, 08:24:34 PM
 #815

And what do you mean by that the transaction of Ethereum is richer than NXT, whats it's implications?  

http://ethereum.org/ answers ur question:

Quote
the only limit is your imagination
_ingsoc
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January 29, 2014, 08:26:50 PM
 #816

As for the fundraiser, innovation requires fuel and thus we'll make sure we get to it as soon as we can as well. Our goal is to be as fair and equitable as possible.

I really hope you guys can figure out the legislative and logistical issues with the fundraiser. There has been a lot of confusion about contributions, and terms like "investing" and "IPO" further confuse people because they imply some traditional type of inherent value and equity, when in fact people are buying lines of code that happen to be Ether - we in turn assign value to that as a community. I think fundraising in this way become inherent to fueling future innovation, and nobody can argue with that, so I hope you can find a way that works. In the early stages, some people fund, some people mine, and some people buy after it's shown to be something real. If there's room for all of those, it gets as fair as you can get.

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January 29, 2014, 08:27:13 PM
 #817

I doubt that the Ethereum IPO will return even 1/10th of what Nxt did for its investors. If anything at all.

The dilution potential is huge. Set the cap at 5000 BTC and implement a max investment cap to allow many small investors.


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KoinMaster
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January 29, 2014, 08:34:48 PM
 #818

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That's different Charles, I'm looking forward to seeing your responses! I even plan to invest in Ethereum, if our questions will be addressed openly and honestly and if the IPO/lauch/inflationary conditions will be changed to more fair terms for us investors.

I will try as hard as I can. Ethereum is not for everyone, but I think it brings both a wonderful set of innovations to this space and also a very attract value proposition to speculators. I hope you can enjoy one or both. Ultimately, we will be spending a lot of time communication our goals, vision and the core aspects of Ethereum to as many people as possible. The difficulty is that our infrastructure wasn't setup to receive 1,000s of emails, over a hundred pages of forum threads and all the other communications within a two week spread.

We were even in Wired http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2014/01/ethereum/. I make a promise that we will work harder and hopefully get everything sorted out in a few weeks max. As for the fundraiser, innovation requires fuel and thus we'll make sure we get to it as soon as we can as well. Our goal is to be as fair and equitable as possible.

Thanks Charles for your answer. I personally find the idea behind Ethereum ingenius. I want to believe in it. Now I feel that we'll get answers to our concerns from the Ethereum team. I hope that Goldman Sachs is not involved. Without making a poll I suppose 80% of the forum members think that GS is responsible for lot of bad things in this world and we don't want a crpyto which GS has a finger in it.


 
 
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January 29, 2014, 08:41:55 PM
 #819

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That's different Charles, I'm looking forward to seeing your responses! I even plan to invest in Ethereum, if our questions will be addressed openly and honestly and if the IPO/lauch/inflationary conditions will be changed to more fair terms for us investors.

I will try as hard as I can. Ethereum is not for everyone, but I think it brings both a wonderful set of innovations to this space and also a very attract value proposition to speculators. I hope you can enjoy one or both. Ultimately, we will be spending a lot of time communication our goals, vision and the core aspects of Ethereum to as many people as possible. The difficulty is that our infrastructure wasn't setup to receive 1,000s of emails, over a hundred pages of forum threads and all the other communications within a two week spread.

We were even in Wired http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2014/01/ethereum/. I make a promise that we will work harder and hopefully get everything sorted out in a few weeks max. As for the fundraiser, innovation requires fuel and thus we'll make sure we get to it as soon as we can as well. Our goal is to be as fair and equitable as possible.

Thanks Charles for your answer. I personally find the idea behind Ethereum ingenius. I want to believe in it. Now I feel that we'll get answers to our concerns from the Ethereum team. I hope that Goldman Sachs is not involved. Without making a poll I suppose 80% of the forum members think that GS is responsible for lot of bad things in this world and we don't want a crpyto which GS has a finger in it.


So you'll be happier and compliant once you can hear a slick employed PR mouth piece to make all your concerns seem silly. Some people deserve what they get IMO...
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January 29, 2014, 08:44:26 PM
 #820

So you'll be happier and compliant once you can hear a slick employed PR mouth piece to make all your concerns seem silly. Some people deserve what they get IMO...

Okay, how about this. You now have the stage. Tell the Ethereum people exactly how they should do this. Statements like that need to accompany a solution or they're useless noise.

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