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Author Topic: [ANN] Ethereum: Welcome to the Beginning  (Read 1699824 times)
Herp
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January 30, 2014, 02:31:46 PM
 #941

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Point is fresh currency keeps coming to the market by mining, devaluing the stake of existing holders and we're also talking pre-mine here, which excludes the community. So basically people buy into this IPO based on "proof of stake" and then devaluation comes with "proof of work". Cleverly designed model to rip off people.

People are also taking a huge chance of them delivering on some complicated Turing when coins like Mastercoin are already testing their distributed exchange, days away from launch. People are also taking the risk of giving up 1st mover advantage and we know what 1st mover advantage meant for Bitcoin. You don't see alt coin atms being installed everywhere in the world for example. Bitcoin is the superstar due to 1st mover advantage. Very often it's not a question of who has best tech but a question of adoption. This is why HD DVD lost the fight with Blueray, for eg, even though they've had better specs.

You are mixing two different things here
 
Firstly with regards to dilution and speculation, its a valid concern but if you want to purely speculate then in the medium term you have time. Day 1 after the IPO only X is available, Day 2 is X + 0.4/365 * X (for the sake of simplicity) and a large portion of inflation happens on Day 366 when X + 0.4X + 30% of 0.5X is in circulation and available - assuming there are no hoarders and no long term view investors. You have at the very least months before you decide your exit strategy if you are in it only for speculation.

Secondly, no one ever said it is not a risk. I do not understand you plugging for Mastercoin at every given opportunity, its smacks of bias. Worse is to call this a model designed to rip off people. If you don't agree with the model that's perfectly fine, but to question the honesty of people associated with this project based on your dislike of issuance model without anything concrete is not cool.

I own some Mastercoin, Angel Protoshares and other cryptos and I wanted to get into this Ethereum also. If you check my posting history you'll see I was among the very first to learn about this venture during a forum spat between Invictus and Etherum founder, when project wasn't yet announced.

This financing model is ripping off people by putting huge chunk of risk on their back while taking none themselves. About the latter, one may ask how honest are these people involved if this issuance is so rip off like? Can you trust them delivering going further when they seem to care more about getting settled for life and becoming millionaires rather than other consideration?


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1511458078
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January 30, 2014, 02:50:45 PM
 #942

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This financing model is ripping off people by putting huge chunk of risk on their back while taking none themselves. About the latter, one may ask how honest are these people involved if this issuance is so rip off like? Can you trust them delivering going further when they seem to care more about getting settled for life and becoming millionaires rather than other consideration?

I may be completely wrong here but I believe that the issuance model will be further tweaked and balanced before the IPO's new date is announced. Eventually no matter what the model is, it is not going to satisfy each and everyone of us. That I am pretty sure of. For sure as potential investors we would like more clarity and hopefully more balanced terms. Only time will tell but we must give them that opportunity before we start questioning their honesty. That's how I feel about it anyway.

I also feel that a lot of us look at this purely as profit and as commodity like much of the crypto currency universe and I think Ethereum has the potential to be more than that. Whether or not that potential is fulfilled is another debate. I am really excited about the possibility to incentivize p2p activities - whatever than might be - entirely up to the imagination of the independent developer who will built an application to leverage this platform. Since the advent of internet p2p has been a purely altruistic endevour which as has been pointed out serves the needs of the mainstream very well. Here is an opportunity and an incentive to do something beyond the mainstream in a truly decentralized fashion, a platform to leverage something other than a financial instrument. Its a really remarkable thought and if it is realized (lots of ifs and buts at this stage) it represents the next evolution of internet. Given such a lofty aim I am not sure how I can measure the worth the currency that will play an instrumental part of it. Maybe I am being too optimistic but I rather see this project succeed in its aims notwithstanding its inflationary tendencies and its effects on my investments. That's why I must invest only as much as I am prepared to risk and not a single satoshi more. Should you decide to invest I will give you the same advice.
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January 30, 2014, 03:18:59 PM
 #943

ok ill bite, can someone explain just what exactly all this "turing-complete" compatible IS and how it works?  Explain it to the level of someone with a BS in IT and who has worked professionally in IT for 20 years as a network tech
turtoro
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January 30, 2014, 04:12:05 PM
 #944

ok ill bite, can someone explain just what exactly all this "turing-complete" compatible IS and how it works?  Explain it to the level of someone with a BS in IT and who has worked professionally in IT for 20 years as a network tech

sure:

01000001 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101101 01110000 01110101 01110100 01100001 01110100 01101001 01101111 01101110 01100001 01101100 00100000 01110011 01111001 01110011 01110100 01100101 01101101 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101110 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101101 01110000 01110101 01110100 01100101 00100000 01100101 01110110 01100101 01110010 01111001 00100000 01010100 01110101 01110010 01101001 01101110 01100111 00101101 01100011 01101111 01101101 01110000 01110101 01110100 01100001 01100010 01101100 01100101 00100000 01100110 01110101 01101110 01100011 01110100 01101001 01101111 01101110 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101100 01101100 01100101 01100100 00100000 01010100 01110101 01110010 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101101 01110000 01101100 01100101 01110100 01100101 00100000 00101000 01101111 01110010 00100000 01010100 01110101 01110010 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01110000 01101111 01110111 01100101 01110010 01100110 01110101 01101100 00101001 00101110 00100000 01000001 01101100 01110100 01100101 01110010 01101110 01100001 01110100 01101001 01110110 01100101 01101100 01111001 00101100 00100000 01110011 01110101 01100011 01101000 00100000 01100001 00100000 01110011 01111001 01110011 01110100 01100101 01101101 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01101111 01101110 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101110 00100000 01110011 01101001 01101101 01110101 01101100 01100001 01110100 01100101 00100000 01100001 00100000 01110101 01101110 01101001 01110110 01100101 01110010 01110011 01100001 01101100 00100000 01010100 01110101 01110010 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01101101 01100001 01100011 01101000 01101001 01101110 01100101 00101110


01101001 01110100 01110011 00100000 01100010 01100001 01110011 01101001 01100011 01100001 01101100 01101100 01111001 00100000 01110011 01100001 01101100 01100101 01110011 00100000 01100110 01101100 01110101 01100110 01100110

ddink7
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January 30, 2014, 04:46:16 PM
 #945

ok ill bite, can someone explain just what exactly all this "turing-complete" compatible IS and how it works?  Explain it to the level of someone with a BS in IT and who has worked professionally in IT for 20 years as a network tech

sure:

01000001 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101101 01110000 01110101 01110100 01100001 01110100 01101001 01101111 01101110 01100001 01101100 00100000 01110011 01111001 01110011 01110100 01100101 01101101 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101110 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101101 01110000 01110101 01110100 01100101 00100000 01100101 01110110 01100101 01110010 01111001 00100000 01010100 01110101 01110010 01101001 01101110 01100111 00101101 01100011 01101111 01101101 01110000 01110101 01110100 01100001 01100010 01101100 01100101 00100000 01100110 01110101 01101110 01100011 01110100 01101001 01101111 01101110 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101100 01101100 01100101 01100100 00100000 01010100 01110101 01110010 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01100011 01101111 01101101 01110000 01101100 01100101 01110100 01100101 00100000 00101000 01101111 01110010 00100000 01010100 01110101 01110010 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01110000 01101111 01110111 01100101 01110010 01100110 01110101 01101100 00101001 00101110 00100000 01000001 01101100 01110100 01100101 01110010 01101110 01100001 01110100 01101001 01110110 01100101 01101100 01111001 00101100 00100000 01110011 01110101 01100011 01101000 00100000 01100001 00100000 01110011 01111001 01110011 01110100 01100101 01101101 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01101111 01101110 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101110 00100000 01110011 01101001 01101101 01110101 01101100 01100001 01110100 01100101 00100000 01100001 00100000 01110101 01101110 01101001 01110110 01100101 01110010 01110011 01100001 01101100 00100000 01010100 01110101 01110010 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01101101 01100001 01100011 01101000 01101001 01101110 01100101 00101110


01101001 01110100 01110011 00100000 01100010 01100001 01110011 01101001 01100011 01100001 01101100 01101100 01111001 00100000 01110011 01100001 01101100 01100101 01110011 00100000 01100110 01101100 01110101 01100110 01100110

^This.

But seriously, Turing complete means that Ethereum will essentially be a full programming language, which can do anything that a full programming language can do. As opposed to Bitcoin, which can only do certain things as defined by its protocol--which was intentionally limited by Satoshi.

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nexern
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January 30, 2014, 06:52:43 PM
 #946

don't know where the hype for turing completeness is coming from but it is much more difficult, to find
a language (or even sub-language) which is NOT turing complete in reference to it's usage design.
anyway, the by far much more interesting question is how this semi-smart-code is sandboxed efficently
without loosing to much functionality. i doubt, using the current browser (javasrcipt) sandboxing as
a blueprint will work in a solid way. instead reducing the language to gain security the other way around
should be considered too. giving the code self-reflection/modifying capabilities could solve this. the best
language combination from my pov would be erlang (self-healing nodes, nearly unbreakable once running)
as bc carrier and lisp/scheme (self-modifiable) to add logic on top. in this combination you have ultra-tons of
turing completeness if you in the need...   Grin
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January 30, 2014, 08:38:28 PM
 #947

Thanks for showing up everyone! It was really nice seeing so many of you at the protest today. We really put a lot of pressure on this GS-Ethereum deal. Power to the people!

http://cphpost.dk/news/2-500-protest-against-goldman-sachs-deal.8473.html

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January 30, 2014, 08:54:12 PM
 #948

I am newbie but realy interested in this project. I think that If they were expecting at least 500BTC from IPO and that would be enough for them, so  why it would'nt be enough if ppl invest more? I would suggest premine 500BTC worth ethers = 10000000*0,5 for ther expenses no matter how much total investment will be. Or at least their % share should gradualy decerase along with the increase of the overall amount of investment. It would encourage more investors and give bigger chance for project to be succesfull - everybody would be happy  Smiley

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January 30, 2014, 09:44:03 PM
 #949

I am newbie but realy interested in this project. I think that If they were expecting at least 500BTC from IPO and that would be enough for them, so  why it would'nt be enough if ppl invest more? I would suggest premine 500BTC worth ethers = 10000000*0,5 for ther expenses no matter how much total investment will be. Or at least their % share should gradualy decerase along with the increase of the overall amount of investment. It would encourage more investors and give bigger chance for project to be succesfull - everybody would be happy  Smiley

The problem is that one moderately wealthy person could invest all 500 BTC and end up owning all of the ether. You can't really set per-person limits, either, due to Sybil attacks (people making multiple wallets/forum identities/email addresses/etc. and investing with each). You also can't force everyone to invest via bank wire, which might provide some clues as to identity, but would create a "taxable event" in many jurisdictions. It's really a conundrum.

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_ingsoc
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January 30, 2014, 09:46:30 PM
 #950

I am newbie but realy interested in this project. I think that If they were expecting at least 500BTC from IPO and that would be enough for them, so  why it would'nt be enough if ppl invest more? I would suggest premine 500BTC worth ethers = 10000000*0,5 for ther expenses no matter how much total investment will be. Or at least their % share should gradualy decerase along with the increase of the overall amount of investment. It would encourage more investors and give bigger chance for project to be succesfull - everybody would be happy  Smiley

The problem is that one moderately wealthy person could invest all 500 BTC and end up owning all of the ether. You can't really set per-person limits, either, due to Sybil attacks (people making multiple wallets/forum identities/email addresses/etc. and investing with each). You also can't force everyone to invest via bank wire, which might provide some clues as to identity, but would create a "taxable event" in many jurisdictions. It's really a conundrum.

If anyone is interested, there's some discussion about this going on at /r/ethereum, including vbuterin (a founder).

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January 30, 2014, 09:48:09 PM
 #951

I am newbie but realy interested in this project. I think that If they were expecting at least 500BTC from IPO and that would be enough for them, so  why it would'nt be enough if ppl invest more? I would suggest premine 500BTC worth ethers = 10000000*0,5 for ther expenses no matter how much total investment will be. Or at least their % share should gradualy decerase along with the increase of the overall amount of investment. It would encourage more investors and give bigger chance for project to be succesfull - everybody would be happy  Smiley

I say get rid of the premine altogether as it immediately dilutes investors Ether right from the start.

Raising money via an IPO AND 50% premine is what most people are complaining about...

There's been no good valid explanation for the 50% premine.

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January 30, 2014, 10:19:00 PM
 #952

I did not say that 500BTC would be maximum investent, this could stay on level 30 000 BTC who knows maybe will reach it. But what I am saing is premine only from the 500 BTC worth. It would give for example:

Total Investentment 10 000 BTC (lets say all invested 1st week) = 20 000 000 ethers
Premine - 500 BTC = 1 000 000 ethers * 0.5 = 500 000 ethers


It would be 2,5% of fundraiser coins, fair enough for me




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January 30, 2014, 10:42:10 PM
 #953

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I say get rid of the premine altogether as it immediately dilutes investors Ether right from the start.

Raising money via an IPO AND 50% premine is what most people are complaining about...

There's been no good valid explanation for the 50% premine.

Actually there has been, if you read what Vitalik has posted and ignore the FUD.

The bitcoins go to developing the client, applications, and the entire ecosystem. Fifty percent of the premine goes to pay the founders (time locked) and fifty percent goes to endow an Ethereum foundation to maintain the code.

Look at XCP (which I've invested a small amount in): There is some serious concern in the community because nearly 2000 BTC have been burned, but only FIVE have been donated to developing the actual client. What if they don't manage to develop a nice, functional client with only four thousand bucks (5 BTC @ $800 each)? Then the $1.5 million in "investments" (burnt BTC) are lost.

So you have a dilemma. PoB eliminates the trust and fairness issue because the coins are destroyed and nobody gets them--and the result is that developers may not have enough money to actually finish the project. The IPO model requires trusting developers to handle funds (in this case, the invested BTC) but empowers them--through adequate funding--to create a viable ecosystem.

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January 30, 2014, 10:58:13 PM
 #954

Thanks for showing up everyone! It was really nice seeing so many of you at the protest today. We really put a lot of pressure on this GS-Ethereum deal. Power to the people!

http://cphpost.dk/news/2-500-protest-against-goldman-sachs-deal.8473.html

Good job warrior!
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January 31, 2014, 12:52:43 AM
 #955

Why would I invest in Ethereum now and not in Ripple?  Ripple Labs has around 40 people and impressive list of Investors and Advisors.
 
https://www.ripplelabs.com/investors/

https://www.ripplelabs.com/advisors/

Their platform and client are already functional and people are trading on it every second.  This is a genuine question. I have a few bitcoins and I want to invest in the most rewarding crypto platform.
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January 31, 2014, 01:02:27 AM
 #956

Why would I invest in Ethereum now and not in Ripple?  Ripple Labs has around 40 people and impressive list of Investors and Advisors.
 
https://www.ripplelabs.com/investors/

https://www.ripplelabs.com/advisors/

Their platform and client are already functional and people are trading on it every second.  This is a genuine question. I have a few bitcoins and I want to invest in the most rewarding crypto platform.

Ill let someone else answer this, but from a personal perspective, im rea;;y getting tired of hearing about ripple

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January 31, 2014, 01:29:05 AM
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Why would I invest in Ethereum now and not in Ripple?  Ripple Labs has around 40 people and impressive list of Investors and Advisors.
 
https://www.ripplelabs.com/investors/

https://www.ripplelabs.com/advisors/

Their platform and client are already functional and people are trading on it every second.  This is a genuine question. I have a few bitcoins and I want to invest in the most rewarding crypto platform.

Someone else can probably answer this better, but here's one difference.  Ripple is "fully mined" which means all the coins are already in existence.  Actually that's not correct, as there was no mining, the coins were just poofed into existence.  And they just happen to be under the control of the organization, which can sell, trade, give them away, etc, as it sees fit, basically controlling the majority of the supply.  Investing in Ripple places all the trust in one corporation, not a decentralized system like Ethereum, Bitcoin, etc.

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January 31, 2014, 01:35:52 AM
 #958

Oh crap, I have 52 pages to read in just a few days :\

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January 31, 2014, 01:48:02 AM
 #959

I'll sum it up for you

Great potential in this product, but a god-awful IPO was scheduled to begin on the 1st. Seemed awfully greedy on the founders part with the investors taking all the risk. Regardless of if the project failed or not, the founders would still make good money.

However, they have since delayed the IPO (and are hopefully restructuring it, because if they come up with something respectable this thing could really have a future) and so on the 1st there is a tesnet release instead.

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January 31, 2014, 01:48:18 AM
 #960

Why would I invest in Ethereum now and not in Ripple?  Ripple Labs has around 40 people and impressive list of Investors and Advisors.
 
https://www.ripplelabs.com/investors/

https://www.ripplelabs.com/advisors/

Their platform and client are already functional and people are trading on it every second.  This is a genuine question. I have a few bitcoins and I want to invest in the most rewarding crypto platform.

Someone else can probably answer this better, but here's one difference.  Ripple is "fully mined" which means all the coins are already in existence.  Actually that's not correct, as there was no mining, the coins were just poofed into existence.  And they just happen to be under the control of the organization, which can sell, trade, give them away, etc, as it sees fit, basically controlling the majority of the supply.  Investing in Ripple places all the trust in one corporation, not a decentralized system like Ethereum, Bitcoin, etc.



Ethereum will also be proof of stake to an important degree. So it's kinda` like Ripple in that sense but will also have pre-mine and regular mining. It's a hot mess in other words.


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DECENT
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[D]ecentralized application
[E]liminated third parties
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[E]ncrypted & secure
[N]o borders
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