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Author Topic: [ANN] Ethereum: Welcome to the Beginning  (Read 1773981 times)
msin
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January 28, 2014, 05:53:59 AM
 #581

1 Ether = $1 is ridiculous, especially when you consider fees.  You will pay $1 per Ether but that will immediately be worth $.5 per Ether because of 50% founder premine and further devaluation from mining in the first year.  It's a shitty way to do things. Also, I wouldn't piss on the dogecoin community unless you want the Jamaican Bobsled team knocking on your door.

firstly: to avoid making yourself look like an idiotic troll in the future I would advise reading the white paper BEFORE commenting.
the so called "pre mined coins" are the Ether that you are purchasing at the IPO. the so called "founders" end up with only a few percent of the coins over time. the initial distribution model was chosen to be broader than that of Bitcoin.

secondly: DOGE coin was intended to NOT to be taken seriously so why do you taking comments about DOGE seriously?

thirdly: the Jamaican Bob sled team are welcome at my house but unfortunately my house is a bit far from Jamaica and Sochi, perhaps you could organise a fund raiser to fund their flights here?  


Fourthly: Which white paper, cause they've changed it so many times I can't remember what the original looked like?  Let me guess, your buddies told you about Bitcoin last summer and you thought it was neat, welcome to the party dork.
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January 28, 2014, 06:04:23 AM
 #582

erm the one on the front page of the ethereum.org website?

must be too hard for you to find..
here let me paste the link yet again.

http://ethereum.org/ethereum.html

                    After 1 year    After 5 years
Currency units             1.9X    3.5X
Fundraiser participants     52.6%    28.6%
Fiduciary members and early contributors    11.8%    6.42%
Additional pre-launch allocations    2.63%    1.42%
Reserve    11.8%    6.42%
Miners    21.1%    57.1%


PS ive been in Bitcoin for a while.. I just didn't bother with bitcointalk till recently and even now sometimes I wonder why I bother.

KARMA: KSc9oGgGga1TS4PqZNFxNS9LSDjdSgpC1B      VERT: VgKaooA5ZuLLUXTUANJigH9wCPuzBUBv9H
DOGE:   DRN7pXid34o6wQgUuK8BoSjWJ5g8jiEs4e
gutshot5820
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January 28, 2014, 06:07:04 AM
 #583

This crowdfundraising is a total scam job. Who in their right mind gives 30,000 in untraceable bitcoins to a bunch of total strangers that refuse to file the proper paperwork that is required when crowdfundraising. This legally required filing for crowdfundraising is designed to provide transparency and protect people against fraud. This is not your average coin launch that does a percentage of pre-mine for advertising. They lost their right of anonymity as small time devs just casually creating coins when they asked for 36 million dollars from the public. When you ask for that kind of capital, you MUST file the proper paperwork.

They are asking YOU and the entire bitcoin community to TRUST them and GIVE them 30,000 BTC before launch and make them millions before one coin is mined with absolutely no documentation, no insurance, no bond, no transparency, no regulatory filings. Do not let them deceive you. This is not just another coin launch. When you ask for this type of money, you MUST file the proper paperwork and background checks. Who are these guys? ONE youtube video and they are asking for 30,000 BTC. Let them earn their money like every other dev, mine a small part and let the market decide how much the coins should be worth. Even if you like the tech DO NOT enable this kind of behaviour and let these fukin devs take advantage of the bitcoin community. They want to be millionaires with YOUR money before even launching. They want YOU to take ALL the risk while they become millionaires with ZERO risk. They will be laughing all the way to the bank in their new Lamborghinis and Homes, while you are nervous about your money the entire time. They have ZERO sweat equity or money of their own in this project. Does this seem right to you?

This is not an IPO, they have no sweat equity or principle money of their own involved, no VC in their right mind would invest a penny in their company, and they are skirting every financial regulation you can think of. They are requesting to get paid in untraceable bitcoin so if something happens they are already wealthy and can claim complete deniability. They are protected from civil lawsuit because there is no way to prove their identity and receipt of money, plus no way to collect untraceable bitcoins.

A prospectus without an underwriter and filing with the SEC? What a joke! an IPO without an underwriter and investment bank? Hilarious. The prospectus will not be worth the ink and paper its written on. You might as well call it a marketing brochure. Calling it an IPO is a deception to make it seem more palatable and legal, (fudge advertising with misleading words) nothing could be further from the truth. This is NOT an IPO, it is them begging you to give them 30,000 BTC. IPO....LMAO

If you like the tech, buy it aftermarket. Let these Goldman Sachs advised guys make their money the same way as everyone else, launch it, mine and let the public decide how much it will be worth. If we as a community are stupid enough to give these guys 30,000 bitcoin then guess what will happen?
A herd of new ingenious, I have the best tech entities advised by wall street guys will come out with marketing videos and EVERY coin will want 36 million to launch plus 50% pre-mine. If we give these greedy wall street guys 30,000 btc and 50% pre-mine it will set a new precedent. Wall street guys, Goldman Sachs will introduce a new coin every week demanding more and more and the miners and bitcoin community will get churned and burned. I guarantee you this. This is just the beginning. Dont let them take over the crypto coin community with their greed. If you pay them 30,000 bitcoin and give them 50% pre-mine you are enabling them and giving them more incentive to take over the crypto community.

Ethereum: Welcome to the Beginning - Yes it will be the beginning. The beginning of the end for miners and crypto investors. Do not enable this type of greed into the bitcoin community. You will destroy everything you have worked for by signaling to these type of people that we can be taken advantage of.
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January 28, 2014, 06:20:38 AM
 #584

Fourthly: Which white paper, cause they've changed it so many times I can't remember what the original looked like?  Let me guess, your buddies told you about Bitcoin last summer and you thought it was neat, welcome to the party dork.

The issuance part has been changed once - so to claim it has changed so many times that you can't remember is basically exaggeration. Moreover this is Alpha stage, surely you should know that things are subject to changes and reviews during Alpha stage.

To invest or not to, to buy after the IPO or to mine are all valid options and if you want to participate in the project, depending on your risk you can chose any or all options or none if you don't like what you see. But at least wait until all details are finalized before judging them.
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January 28, 2014, 07:00:01 AM
 #585


But if you think this has true potential and you decide not to invest "on principle" because you feel like the founders are making too much money, then you're a damn fool.
+1 This.


Are you kidding me?  You will be able to buy MILLIONS of these aftermarket.  That's just the dumbest thing I have read so far.  You are all sadly mistaken if you think this will trade higher at the opening.  You are under the impression that you are buying in at the ground floor like any other coin. NOT!!!! You will have to overcome a 30,000 bitcoin neg from the beginning PLUS 50%  premine plus further devaluation over time due to mining etc...  This will be over priced right from the start and the market will reflect that.  There is a big difference in buying a coin when its dirt cheap vs having to overcome a 36 million or 30,000 btc deficit plus 50% premine.  The Goldman Sachs advisers have sucked all of the future profits out of the tech before its even launched.  This coin will have to jump through hoops and perform miracles before they exceed that barrier.

If you think a starter coin will have a 100 million market cap right from the beginning and you will miss out on something big if you dont buy into the pre-sale, then Goldman Sachs did a awesome job brainwashing you into relieving you of your money.  This coin will not sell out and they will have to unload a ton of the designated pre-sale coin onto the market in order to honor their commitments.  Any coin has the potential to increase in value, but you have to realize, right from the beginning this coin will have already drained 30,000 bitcoin in profits from the community and the remaining of the 50% premine plus more coins from mining etc....  If you think there is another 100,000 bitcoin waiting to take that off your hands for a starter coin that is already getting a ton of negative press, you will be in for a surprise.  If anything it will be undersold and the market will be flooded with these coins and it will sink to its appropriate value before it will rise.
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January 28, 2014, 07:19:12 AM
 #586

I don't have opinion yet.

But did any of you see the post by the guy who attended the Miami conference?

He clearly stated that the 30,000 BTC was a self imposed cap on fund raising.  It was not the amount they're claiming they need.

He clearly stated that V named 500 BTC as what they actually need.  If they have that, they can continue with the project.

Stop saying they're demanding 30,000 BTC from investors.  Apparently its not factual.  Or its lacking some information.

If this became a 500 BTC IPO .... would that make people happier? 

It does not matter because there are a number of people who want to run this project to the ground with complete misinformation. They will stick to their claim of 30,000 BTC and 36 million dollars paying no heed to others. They twist every little piece of information that has been listed with their lies and have completely infected this thread. People who are too lazy to read the original posts or comprehend it correctly buy into their lies.

If you like this project you are either a "HUGE" investor, or scum of the earth or a wall street stooge or your are simply getting paid to mislead people. They will bully, intimidate and abuse you until you no longer give a shit about clearing this misinformation. If you want information on this project this is no longer the thread to seek, look for information on their official website and forum, you might be able to decide if you want to invest or not to.

I have no problem with the opinion that the founders are asking for too much (BTC and premine share) but the numbers being thrown around has become the theater of absurd.


+1 The energy and time some of the detractors have put into repeatedly posting disinformation here makes me suspicious, but at least by announcing the pre-sale publicly here, Ethereum has met its commitment to inform and allow people to participate according to a fixed schedule and investment cap. This will negate future claims that people did not have a chance to invest.
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January 28, 2014, 07:41:13 AM
 #587

I don't have opinion yet.

But did any of you see the post by the guy who attended the Miami conference?

He clearly stated that the 30,000 BTC was a self imposed cap on fund raising.  It was not the amount they're claiming they need.

He clearly stated that V named 500 BTC as what they actually need.  If they have that, they can continue with the project.

Stop saying they're demanding 30,000 BTC from investors.  Apparently its not factual.  Or its lacking some information.

If this became a 500 BTC IPO .... would that make people happier?  

It does not matter because there are a number of people who want to run this project to the ground with complete misinformation. They will stick to their claim of 30,000 BTC and 36 million dollars paying no heed to others. They twist every little piece of information that has been listed with their lies and have completely infected this thread. People who are too lazy to read the original posts or comprehend it correctly buy into their lies.

If you like this project you are either a "HUGE" investor, or scum of the earth or a wall street stooge or your are simply getting paid to mislead people. They will bully, intimidate and abuse you until you no longer give a shit about clearing this misinformation. If you want information on this project this is no longer the thread to seek, look for information on their official website and forum, you might be able to decide if you want to invest or not to.

I have no problem with the opinion that the founders are asking for too much (BTC and premine share) but the numbers being thrown around has become the theater of absurd.


+1 The energy and time some of the detractors have put into repeatedly posting disinformation here makes me suspicious, but at least by announcing the pre-sale publicly here, Ethereum has met its commitment to inform and allow people to participate according to a fixed schedule and investment cap. This will negate future claims that people did not have a chance to invest.

Do your own research people.  Google "IPO" "prospectus" "Crowdfundraising legal requirements."  Do not listen to what I am saying, do your own research before you invest a dime.  That's all I'm asking is to ignore the hype and do some homework before you invest a dime and make your own decision.  All of the same guys here that are posting and detracting from people who have legitimate questions.  READ their previous posts before you take any value in their opinions.  Most ALL of them have been involved in a launch of a coin that raised money pre-sale.  They have a sincere interest in seeing this coin launch succeed so they can get involved in the next one that will charge a lot of money.  READ their previous posts and you will see most of them have no credibility.  You can read mine and you will see I'm just a casual investor,
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January 28, 2014, 08:13:56 AM
 #588

good luck, sounds interesting...

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January 28, 2014, 08:34:41 AM
 #589


The day this coin launch, the scam crew will probably be arrested like Ross Ulbricht from SilkRoad.

This could be the biggest scam ever in crypto-currency. If you support it, you can get into trouble.

I wouldn't take that risk.

Here's my bag so you don't ask : Bitcoin, tenX, iexec, byteball and pepecash
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January 28, 2014, 08:49:37 AM
 #590

Alright. At this point I think it's pretty unreasonable to expect them to go through 32 pages and extract all the information people are unhappy about in order to get a response. So why don't we compile a list in bullet form to summarise things people need information about. I'll add a few points that seem to pop up (no matter how crazy anyone thinks they are). If you want to post bullet points to get information about, please do so and I'll add them to this list.

LIST OF COMMUNITY QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS (ADD TO IT)*

  • (Q) Can you explain your reasoning behind the 0.50*X premine and its division in the organisation in conjunction with the reasoning behind raising Bitcoin for expenses? Some people seem to view this as "double dipping", so information on the reasoning behind these decisions would be really helpful (this might be in the prospectus to some extent).

    • Pending Answer (or help me find a quote)

  • (Q) Charles mentioned someone or some people that either have a present or past relationship with Goldman Sachs are involved or expressed an interest in the project. Can you elaborate on this relationship? Some people are upset by this.

    • (A) from charleshoskinson:
      Goldman Sachs is not involved in our venture. We did not solicit them for investment, the company is not assisting us in any way.

      We have two quantitative analysts on our team who both have a diverse background off and on wall street including both working for Goldman sachs at some point in their careers. Dr. Costa lives in Asia at the moment and runs an independent hedge fund and Joseph lupin has most recently been involved in the music industry in Jamaica.

      The blockchain is owned by those who participate in the fundraiser and those receiving the early stakeholders premine. Let me be clear: No Bank, No financial entity including Goldman Sachs has been allocated any amount of the premine. If they want a chunk then they have to buy it once the fundraiser starts like everyone else.

      We have two people on our team who started their financial careers- as many thousands have done- at Goldman Sachs. They have both since left and started other ventures. In both cases those were hedge funds. Joe retired and moved to Jamaica to be in the music industry and came out of retirement to join us. Costa went to university of Edinburgh to study LCS's relationship to finance for a PhD in Quantitative Finance. He is now running a hedge fund in Kyrgyzstan as well as building a full clearing house in etherscript.

      We have no relationship with Goldman Sachs nor are they an investor. I wouldn't take their money if offered. I have great respect for their knowledge of the financial industry as well as quality of talent, but no respect for their business practices or questionable conduct.


  • (Q) There are 22 people listed in the post by Vitalik Buterin introducing the project. Who are the community liaisons for Bitcointalk or representatives that can help answer some of these community concerns and questions? These boys are girls can get a bit rabid from time to time, and it becomes really difficult for newcomers to get accurate information without knowing whose posts to look for.

    • Pending Answer (or help me find a quote)

  • (Q) This question comes from giladio_0 on Reddit. Why was the choice made to crowdfund this whooping amount outside of the due registration and regulatory processes such as the SEC or Canadian equivalent? What is the purpose of this? It will only instigate trouble with the regulators and jeopardize all of the investor's money, and the stability of the project.

    • Pending Answer (or help me find a quote)

  • (Q)
    Ask them to make the case for why we need Proof of Work and the inflationary model of crypto-equity distribution? If Proof of Work is necessary for securing the blockchain, why aren't they going with a deflationary model which requires Ethers to be destroyed when spent to offset the justified inflation if it must be mined by Proof of Work?

    • Pending Answer (or help me find a quote)


Again, please add to this list in bullet form in your posts if you care to, so that we can present these community concerns and questions and get the answers you're after. Obviously everyone posting is interested in the project, so please make your voice heard in a constructive way, for you to be able to make up your mind about supporting the project.

QUESTION FORMAT (SO WE CAN SPOT IT)

Make a post in the form of: (#) Your Question. I'll try and group them if possible.

* NOTE: All these concerns, issues, and questions are reproduced verbatim.

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January 28, 2014, 09:00:52 AM
 #591

This will be a revolution.

not sure. I am not gonna invest my hard earned money into this.
I am not gonna feed these hungry coyots.
there are so many ways how to throw away your money - flush it down the toilet, throw it from window, burn it, give to homeless..... or buy some ether or US debt notes
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January 28, 2014, 09:11:24 AM
 #592


The day this coin launch, the scam crew will probably be arrested like Ross Ulbricht from SilkRoad.

This could be the biggest scam ever in crypto-currency. If you support it, you can get into trouble.

I wouldn't take that risk.


They might be arrested like Charlie Shrem  Grin
 http://www.coindesk.com/bitinstant-ceo-charlie-shrem-arrested-silk-road-bitcoin-bust/
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January 28, 2014, 09:11:56 AM
 #593

I need some clarification please. 

Lets say someone invests 10 BTC ...

Why does everyone say they won't get much ROI?  I realize its going to gradually decrease in value, but this seems bewildering to me. 

Nobody is going to invest in something declared ahead of time to decrease in value.  So there's information missing from this response as well.

Someone said you *might* double your money after a few years.  Is that really the likely outcome?  I probably would save my $10,000 in BTC for something else if I have to wait 3-5 years for it to go to a whopping $20,000.  I would appreciate a response to this from someone who actually understands the system.  That eliminates 90% of people in this thread.

-B-

1 year out:

Founders immediately sell 1/3 of their holdings (50% premine)
Also, miners will mine 40% of intial supply at the end of the year.

Where does this leave us?

1/(1+(.5/3)+.4) = 0.638 or 63.8% of your initial buy-in. From the get-go, you already lost money on your investment, and now you have to fight just to make ROI... So the market cap would have to triple for you to double your investment, and that's only the first year. Every year your holdings will be heavily diluted, until the year 2070 or something. Compared to other coins, you could have made 300%+ (due to not having this crazy premine and inflation) in the first year.

Good idea, but not a tempting investment to make.

NXT: 13095091276527367030
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January 28, 2014, 09:13:39 AM
 #594

    LIST OF COMMUNITY QUESTIONS (ADD TO IT)

    • Can you explain your reasoning behind the 0.50*X premine and its division in the organisation in conjunction with the reasoning behind raising Bitcoin for expenses? Some people seem to view this as "double dipping", so information on the reasoning behind these decisions would be really helpful (this might be in the prospectus to some extent).
    • Charles mentioned someone or some people that either have a present or past relationship with Goldman Sachs are involved or expressed an interest in the project. Can you elaborate on this relationship? Some people are upset by this.

    • Why an IPO(under such extreme conditions), why such complex inflation model?
    [/list]


     
     
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    gutshot5820
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    January 28, 2014, 09:16:52 AM
     #595


    The day this coin launch, the scam crew will probably be arrested like Ross Ulbricht from SilkRoad.

    This could be the biggest scam ever in crypto-currency. If you support it, you can get into trouble.

    I wouldn't take that risk.


    They might be arrested like Charlie Shrem  Grin
     http://www.coindesk.com/bitinstant-ceo-charlie-shrem-arrested-silk-road-bitcoin-bust/

    Yup these guys are laundering money through the exchange of coins to enter a gray area to avoid crowdfundraising regulations.  Everyone better believe that the feds SEC and Canadians are watching this.  Some of the pre-sales have been small fish but this amount of money will not be overlooked.  Once you send your bitcoins, if they get arrested, everyone will lose. 
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    January 28, 2014, 09:40:59 AM
     #596

    Why an IPO(under such extreme conditions), why such complex inflation model?

    Cool. Added it to the list. Just use a singe bullet point "(#) Your Question" so I can keep track of it all. I'll add a formatting suggestion. Smiley

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    January 28, 2014, 09:44:58 AM
     #597



    Founders immediately sell 1/3 of their holdings (50% premine)
    Also, miners will mine 40% of intial supply at the end of the year.

    Where does this leave us?

    1/(1+(.5/3)+.4) = 0.638 or 63.8% of your initial buy-in. From the get-go, you already lost money on your investment, and now you have to fight just to make ROI... So the market cap would have to triple for you to double your investment, and that's only the first year.


    It's even worse than that. Look:

    TS(t) = 1.5*X + 0.4*X*t

    For every $2 raised there is inflation value of:
    $1 of premine
    $0.8 of 1yr mine

    TS(1) = 1.5 * $2 + 0.4 * $2 = $3.8

    2/3.8 = 0.526


    Aaaand.... it's gone. Almost 50% of your investment.

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    January 28, 2014, 09:54:40 AM
     #598

    It's even worse than that. Look:

    TS(t) = 1.5*X + 0.4*X*t

    For every $2 raised there is inflation value of:
    $1 of premine
    $0.8 of 1yr mine

    TS(1) = 1.5 * $2 + 0.4 * $2 = $3.8

    2/3.8 = 0.526


    Aaaand.... it's gone. Almost 50% of your investment.

    If this is a concern or question about inflation please help me word it into a question so we can get answers. Refer to this post.

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    January 28, 2014, 09:56:59 AM
     #599

    I think eth developers have been brainwashed by goldman sachs in believing they are going to change the world

    I feel bad for Charles. Guy mentions that someone who worked for Goldman Sachs in the past has interest in the project and a new Internet conspiracy theory is born. If Goldman Sachs is secretly engineering a plot to troll everyone on the Internet, they'd be smart enough to not get Charles to announce it in a YouTube video. Besides, if you knew how deeply embedded those corporations are in Bitcoin, you'd burn your hard drive to a crisp in a bonfire. Keep on derpin'!

    I wouldn't care where people worked before hand. It's the fact that Ethereum seems to be designed to screw investors. It almost seems like it's designed wrong on purpose.

    I'm willing to say it's possible that it's just a philosophical disagreement. A lot of very smart people can disagree on these matters. I'm willing to watch how Ethereum does but I'm not going to be investing in an IPO where it's 1000 Ethers a Bitcoin. That is so over priced that it's almost ridiculous. 50% premine is even more ridiculous.

    Say what you want about the IPO but as an investor it's just too much risk. On top of that the design is extremely ambitious but also presents security risks as well being that it is turing complete. Using virtual machines and sandboxes may help but it's also going to make it much more expensive and difficult to develop than most people here realize.

    I like the technology, so from that perspective I think its pretty cool. But from the perspective of an investor I think it's not worth the risk to me when you have Bitshares, Mastercoin and others which aren't going to inflate for eternity (for no apparent reason).

    If you're going to dilute our shares don't ask for 50% premine. Don't design it in such a way so that it is as unattractive to early investors as possible. We aren't stupid.
    _ingsoc
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    January 28, 2014, 10:03:03 AM
     #600

    I wouldn't care where people worked before hand. It's the fact that Ethereum seems to be designed to screw investors. It almost seems like it's designed wrong on purpose.

    I'm willing to say it's possible that it's just a philosophical disagreement. A lot of very smart people can disagree on these matters. I'm willing to watch how Ethereum does but I'm not going to be investing in an IPO where it's 1000 Ethers a Bitcoin. That is so over priced that it's almost ridiculous. 50% premine is even more ridiculous.

    Say what you want about the IPO but as an investor it's just too much risk. On top of that the design is extremely ambitious but also presents security risks as well being that it is turing complete. Using virtual machines and sandboxes may help but it's also going to make it much more expensive and difficult to develop than people here realize.

    I like the technology, so from that perspective I think its pretty cool. But from the perspective of an investor I think it's not worth the risk to me when you have Bitshares, Mastercoin and others which aren't going to inflate for eternity (for no apparent reason).

    If you're going to dilute our shares don't ask for 50% premine. Don't design it in such a way so that it is as unattractive to early investors as possible. We aren't stupid.

    Help me add words to the questions if I'm missing things. I'm trying to get through the noise and summarise community concerns. Ethereum has the potential to be a great project, but who would want to bring a project to this community if the response is totally out of control. If their responses suck and the community feels they can go to hell, then that's cool if we got organised and had proper discourse.

    You also know I'm working with tacotime on MC2, so I'm trying to learn so I don't have to cry myself to sleep when there's more community engagement with that project.

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