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Author Topic: [ANN] Ethereum: Welcome to the Beginning  (Read 1450117 times)
msin
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January 30, 2014, 04:28:51 AM
 #881



The dilution potential is huge. Set the cap at 5000 BTC and implement a max investment cap to allow many small investors.

+1

+1

At the moment it makes no sense. The risk is way too high. Besides, there are many ways they can make money once they launch, such as with their own exchange or other software.

A 5000-10000 BTC limit with 50 BTC limit per person (at least for the first month) is more sensible. Assuming BTC doesn't collapse, that's $4-8m even at current prices. In six months there is a fair chance that will have doubled. Appreciate that 'a person' is imprecise but it's a start. This way everyone knows what they are getting. This also allows people to share the coin pre-mine which I think is better pr and better for the market post launch. If month 1 goes by and the limit is not reached, then remove the coin limit for month 2.

To flip it round, any investor has to assume a 30,000 BTC valuation, making it already a valuable coin. The upside is immediately limited to the coin being a major success. Anything else and the money is lost. Factor in the minting model and the clones that will appear immediately, which may be a better gamble for those so inclined, and the investment is too high risk.

Note: The 50% pre-mine is not for the coin creators. That's for the coin investors, i.e. Potentially us. The rest is split between year 1 miners (not enough I would say), creators, and funding for dev. Correct me if I am wrong.

I want to support this and like some of those involved, but the fund raising model is wrong. That doesn't mean they won't manage to raise it, but it's raising too many eyebrows amongst investors I work with and it's a poor start to a good concept.

Which is why they've delayed the IPO. They've obviously got the pulse of the community and decided to make adjustments.

When they'll be out with this project, others like Mastercoin or Next will be well underway and have first adopter advantage which can be huge advantage.

In this crypto world 1 month = 1 year. Too little, too late.

I disagree, it wasn't the funding issues that delayed the IPO, it was indecision on the crypto architecture.  At first they were gun ho on Dagger, but now they want a POS/POW hybrid and for all we know, they could be reconsidering turing completeness.  If they didn't have the names behind the project, it would be dead in the water, but I still feel we are looking at a Ripple 2.0 type organization.
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_ingsoc
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January 30, 2014, 04:36:09 AM
 #882

Also please be aware that LeoC sent this message to me via a PM:

Quote
10 BTC and I'll remove my posts even though they are factual and won't make any more. 15 and I will change my tune and promote.

eMunie have already lost hundreds of BTC and were forced to cancel their IPO when I called them out here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=411366.0

I was going to create a similar thread regarding Ethereum, unless you send the above amounts.

I'd suggest you think long and hard about this. Which would you prefer to lose, 10 BTC or 1000, your choice.

1C7MPUTTWQjinfbRcQtW6HAc4ips7wMuiJ

Please ignore the FUD. We are going to make every attempt to address all concerns. In many cases, with Vitalik and Me directly.

I suggest everyone report LeoC for attempted extortion. That is beyond crazy and criminal. No way in hell the community should tolerate that.

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January 30, 2014, 04:41:02 AM
 #883


Thank you for posting this video. People have been waiting for this one. It's the video of vbuterin's presentation at the Miami conference.

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January 30, 2014, 04:46:43 AM
 #884

If anyone is thinking about investing in this madness, send me your btcs and I'll hold onto them until you find your sanity.
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January 30, 2014, 04:49:05 AM
 #885

If anyone is thinking about investing in this madness, send me your btcs and I'll hold onto them until you find your sanity.

Sent! Wink

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January 30, 2014, 05:12:23 AM
 #886

"Because we intend on providing an equal opportunity to all those who want to be involved, and are reviewing the relevant logistical and regulatory issues for a fundraiser of this scale, we have decided to postpone the Feb 1 launch of the fundraiser. We will make the announcement of the new fundraiser launch date on our official website: Ethereum.org."

As I have been telling everyone all along, crowdfundraising of this size without proper legal filings was illegal.  Obviously, they have been contacted by the proper regulatory agencies.  This is why they have not been responding to questions regarding their investment structure in a detailed manner.  They are reviewing their proposal internally with their attorneys.  You can all thank me for at least being a voice for good judgement and hopefully they will proceed in manner does does not put your investments in jeopardy due to legal problems.

Bitcoin address: 1BPtjSw1U19r6bSDXAc3Adr5xtS21yEwXU
_ingsoc
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January 30, 2014, 05:27:30 AM
 #887

"Because we intend on providing an equal opportunity to all those who want to be involved, and are reviewing the relevant logistical and regulatory issues for a fundraiser of this scale, we have decided to postpone the Feb 1 launch of the fundraiser. We will make the announcement of the new fundraiser launch date on our official website: Ethereum.org."

As I have been telling everyone all along, crowdfundraising of this size without proper legal filings was illegal.  Obviously, they have been contacted by the proper regulatory agencies.  This is why they have not been responding to questions regarding their investment structure in a detailed manner.  They are reviewing their proposal internally with their attorneys.  You can all thank me for at least being a voice for good judgement and hopefully they will proceed in manner does does not put your investments in jeopardy due to legal problems.

Yeah, good work! Great job scaring everyone and now the pool's closed. Nobody gets to swim now and we all have to go home. Thanks gutshot5820!


charleshoskinson
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January 30, 2014, 06:07:26 AM
 #888

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As I have been telling everyone all along, crowdfundraising of this size without proper legal filings was illegal.  Obviously, they have been contacted by the proper regulatory agencies.  This is why they have not been responding to questions regarding their investment structure in a detailed manner.  They are reviewing their proposal internally with their attorneys.  You can all thank me for at least being a voice for good judgement and hopefully they will proceed in manner does does not put your investments in jeopardy due to legal problems.

We were never contacted by a regulatory body nor believe the models we have chosen are in any way in violation with relevant jurisdictions. This said, logistically and regulatorily, there are differences between raising 5,000 bitcoin and 30,000 in an equitable and fair way. We have a duty to those who trust us to do things the right way and have been in deep discussions for months about this topic with counsel from three different countries. I appreciate your concerns and they are indeed important to address and will be publicly once we announce the new fundraising date.

There are actually several models we could pursue if desired with some constituting a tax event without the need for any filing and others that could require one if we choose to accept certain jurisdictions. Ultimately, it comes down to what is best for everyone in the Ethereum community and what will allow for the best ROI for those who participate in the Ethereum Project. We are taking extra time to ensure this is answered in the most thorough way.

In the meantime, enjoy the testnet and all the other developments we will be launching in February and I'll see you guys soon in Zug.     

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charleshoskinson
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January 30, 2014, 06:17:13 AM
 #889

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+1, if only everyone knew how much of the worlds software is Java.

Java 8 is great; Nxt's java code not so much nor the design of the Proof of Stake. They seem to have a very active community and thus it will likely get better quickly.

Quote
Thanks Charles for your answer. I personally find the idea behind Ethereum ingenius. I want to believe in it. Now I feel that we'll get answers to our concerns from the Ethereum team. I hope that Goldman Sachs is not involved. Without making a poll I suppose 80% of the forum members think that GS is responsible for lot of bad things in this world and we don't want a crpyto which GS has a finger in it.

We have two people on our team who started their financial careers- as many thousands have done- at Goldman Sachs. They have both since left and started other ventures. In both cases those were hedge funds. Joe retired and moved to Jamaica to be in the music industry and came out of retirement to join us. Costa went to university of Edinburgh to study LCS's relationship to finance for a PhD in Quantitative Finance. He is now running a hedge fund in Kyrgyzstan as well as building a full clearing house in etherscript.

We have no relationship with Goldman Sachs nor are they an investor. I wouldn't take their money if offered. I have great respect for their knowledge of the financial industry as well as quality of talent, but no respect for their business practices or questionable conduct.

The revolution begins with the mind and ends with the heart. Knowledge for all, accessible to all and shared by all
LiQio
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January 30, 2014, 06:21:59 AM
 #890


Java 8 is great; Nxt's java code not so much nor the design of the Proof of Stake. ...


hearsay?  Roll Eyes
jsteelbeam
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January 30, 2014, 06:22:47 AM
 #891

So, we should listen to Ethereum detractors LeoC (who is an admitted extortionist) and gutshot5820 (who admitted he doesnt care about the tech and only interested in profiting from pump-and-dump schemes ), but ignore the people who support Ethereum because they are just shills... Roll Eyes
charleshoskinson
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January 30, 2014, 06:24:57 AM
 #892

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hearsay?  Roll Eyes

Cryptography background talking. Also I've written a lot of java code. There are some really amazing developers in the java community and their code provides a clear contrast to bad code. Nxt is a young project and they will likely clean things up a great deal over the coming months. Success breeds scrutiny, which in turn breeds quality. It's important to point out that Nxt is a fundamentally different technology than Ethereum. We can co-existed quite well. Nxt more challenges Bitcoin in certain respects.  

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Come-from-Beyond
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January 30, 2014, 06:25:24 AM
 #893

A 5000-10000 BTC limit with 50 BTC limit per person (at least for the first month) is more sensible.

What about Sybil attack? Will u ask for the passport?
_ingsoc
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January 30, 2014, 06:29:33 AM
 #894

We were never contacted by a regulatory body nor believe the models we have chosen are in any way in violation with relevant jurisdictions. This said, logistically and regulatorily, there are differences between raising 5,000 bitcoin and 30,000 in an equitable and fair way. We have a duty to those who trust us to do things the right way and have been in deep discussions for months about this topic with counsel from three different countries. I appreciate your concerns and they are indeed important to address and will be publicly once we announce the new fundraising date.

There are actually several models we could pursue if desired with some constituting a tax event without the need for any filing and others that could require one if we choose to accept certain jurisdictions. Ultimately, it comes down to what is best for everyone in the Ethereum community and what will allow for the best ROI for those who participate in the Ethereum Project. We are taking extra time to ensure this is answered in the most thorough way.

In the meantime, enjoy the testnet and all the other developments we will be launching in February and I'll see you guys soon in Zug.     

I'm really glad you guys are doing this. We need funding if Ethereum is going to do what it plans to do. I support a fundraising mechanism both because I think it fuels the innovation and because not everyone has easy access to mining, so contributing in a fundraiser becomes accessible. It's a minor point, but I think it's one that's often overlooked.

charleshoskinson
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January 30, 2014, 06:30:30 AM
 #895

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What about Sybil attack? Will u ask for the passport?

Basically this is the fundamental problem with such a scheme. Even if one limited the per person investment, then large investments can be bundled amongst groups of people similar to how political fundraisers process large pools. There are few effective ways to limit the per person investment that seem to be practical in our case, but we still have some good ideas about equitability in certain respects and will be modeling them over the coming weeks.  

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January 30, 2014, 06:34:16 AM
 #896

I hate to bring this up, but is it possible to get a statement about what happened with Invictus? I don't care about details if that's not necessary. My only concern is to find out whether there's a possibility of a disruption like that with Ethereum, which could affect the project if we're focusing on the longer-term.

jubalix
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January 30, 2014, 06:38:25 AM
 #897

Conference, Alpha Testnet and Fundraiser Updates

January 29, 2014 - By Team

Ethereum received an incredible response at the Miami Bitcoin Conference. We traveled there anticipating many technical questions as well as a philosophical discussion about the purpose of Ethereum; however, the overwhelming amount of interest and enthusiasm for the project was much larger than we had anticipated. Vitalik’s presentation was met with both a standing ovation and a question queue that took hours to address.

Because we intend on providing an equal opportunity to all those who want to be involved, and are reviewing the relevant logistical and regulatory issues for a fundraiser of this scale, we have decided to postpone the Feb 1 launch of the fundraiser. We will make the announcement of the new fundraiser launch date on our official website: Ethereum.org.

The Ethereum project is also excited to announce the alpha release of the open source testnet client to the community at the beginning of February. This will give people an opportunity to get involved with the project and experiment with Ethereum scripts and contracts, and gain a better understanding of the technical properties of the Ethereum platform. Launching the testnet at this date will give those interested in the fundraiser a chance to better understand what the Ethereum project is about before participating.

The testnet will include full support for sending and receiving transactions, the initial version of the scripting language as described in our whitepaper, and may or may not include mining. This will also be the first major cryptocurrency project to have two official clients released at the same time, with one written in C++ and the other in Go; a Python client is also in the works. A compiler from the Ethereum CLL to Ethereum script will be released very soon.

A note on security

The fundraiser will NOT be launching on February 1st and any attempt to collect funds at this time should be considered a scam. There have been some scams in the forums thus please use caution and only consider information posted on Ethereum.org to be legitimate. It is important to reinforce to all that only information released and posted at Ethereum.org should be trusted as many are likely to impersonate us.

This appears wise. to postpone the fundraiser.

Admitted Practicing Lawyer::BTC/Crypto Specialist.
B.Engineering/B.Laws
charleshoskinson
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January 30, 2014, 06:40:00 AM
 #898

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I hate to bring this up, but is it possible to get a statement about what happened with Invictus? I don't care about details if that's not necessary. My only concern is to find out whether there's a possibility of a disruption like that with Ethereum, which could affect the project if we're focusing on the longer-term.

There were strategic and creative differences in the company and eventually it lead to a parting. We have since resolved all issues and it's considered to be a closed issue. If it's any consolation, Invictus is doing quite well as a company and shipping products thus I suppose the business plan wasn't too bad.

Unlike Invictus, we had a chance to get to know each other here on the Ethereum team and I'm very good friends with Anthony and Vitalik. We've collaborated first on the Bitcoin Education Project and his work on the Bitcoin Alliance of Canada. Ultimately, you have to make sure you have good team dynamics and respect prior to launching a venture. We did that here with Ethereum and even lived together at a beach house in Miami for a week to see how much we could get on each other's nerves. This really is the best team I've ever worked on.

In terms of Invictus, I think everyone is now getting along in the space:

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January 30, 2014, 06:53:26 AM
 #899

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I hate to bring this up, but is it possible to get a statement about what happened with Invictus? I don't care about details if that's not necessary. My only concern is to find out whether there's a possibility of a disruption like that with Ethereum, which could affect the project if we're focusing on the longer-term.

There were strategic and creative differences in the company and eventually it lead to a parting. We have since resolved all issues and it's considered to be a closed issue. If it's any consolation, Invictus is doing quite well as a company and shipping products thus I suppose the business plan wasn't too bad.

Unlike Invictus, we had a chance to get to know each other here on the Ethereum team and I'm very good friends with Anthony and Vitalik. We've collaborated first on the Bitcoin Education Project and his work on the Bitcoin Alliance of Canada. Ultimately, you have to make sure you have good team dynamics and respect prior to launching a venture. We did that here with Ethereum and even lived together at a beach house in Miami for a week to see how much we could get on each other's nerves. This really is the best team I've ever worked on.

This is great! Thank you. I think some of the growing pains we're experiencing in this thread are attributable to the idea that we're trying to evaluate Ethereum in terms of what we've been exposed to so far in the "anything that's not Bitcoin space". We can't evaluate a different paradigm adequately using the same old methods. You guys have a long-term perspective, and want to put organisational power behind the ideas. Contrary to what some people seem to believe, that's actually a really good thing. Running it like a community-engaged organisation, as well as being members of that community, is a powerful thing that'll bring many benefits.

Without your team being vested in what you work on, how can you steer this ship into uncharted oceans? People need to remember that those who work on this aren't labourers, they need to be vested to ensure the longevity of benefits to the community. Anyway, I don't want to sound like a pro-Ethereum shill, but I welcome something new and look forward to being part of it. Hard work should be respected.

EDIT: Can we get some swag too? Cheesy

charleshoskinson
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January 30, 2014, 06:57:04 AM
 #900

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EDIT: Can we get some swag too? Cheesy

I will personally pay for 300 tee shirts for the next conference if anything to see an army of 300 people wearing our shirts. The next line will have dropbox, a clearinghouse, an altcoin and perhaps a few other designs on the back. We'll also sign a few for you guys.

The revolution begins with the mind and ends with the heart. Knowledge for all, accessible to all and shared by all
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