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Author Topic: [ANN] Spondoolies-Tech - carrier grade, data center ready mining rigs  (Read 1256078 times)
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Biodom
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June 17, 2014, 05:55:05 PM
 #3281

Over the longterm, the most important factor when calculating mining returns will be electricity price. If you are paying 20ct/kwh, you can get the cheapest equipment on the planet and still not make a profit.

Equally important is equipment and maintenance cost. This can be provided in the cheapest way possible, if the manufacturer builds a large quantity of (ideally)
efficient units and deploys them in a large scale to save on costs.
This could be an Allied Control Datatank container.
When building your miners for immersion cooling from the start, you save on costs for heatsinks, fans etc. and can deploy more chips per pcb.

Savings from scaling alone can easily account to another 20% cost reduction in comparison to sending individual people one miner at a time. (Which is the reason behind bulk customers getting better prices.)

The manufacturer can then plan his production more reliably, and offer the best prices available.

When negotiating for hosting of a 1MW container, which only needs electricity and internet connection, you will also be able to secure much lower hosting costs thand any individual at home.
(Think 4-6ct/kwh, or even less).


When hosting and purchasing equipment, the advantage lies in the numbers.
Therefore a fully maintained solution can have enormous advantages for individuals and peace of mind for manufacturers.

Hosting companies DO NOT pass electricity savings to customers. if you compare prices in WA-they are essentially the same despite the fact that they pay 2c/electricity.
Electrical savings transmission simply does not WORK!
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There are several different types of Bitcoin clients. The most secure are full nodes like Bitcoin Core, which will follow the rules of the network no matter what miners do. Even if every miner decided to create 1000 bitcoins per block, full nodes would stick to the rules and reject those blocks.
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June 17, 2014, 05:57:01 PM
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Hosting companies DO NOT pass electricity savings to customers. if you compare prices in WA-they are essentially the same despite the fact that they pay 2c/electricity.
Electrical savings transmission simply does not WORK!
Sure it does. Ask advania in iceland how much they charge for power when you supply the fully populated container.
They pay 4 ct for power, they will bill you 5 ct.

Instant savings. Grin

Mining is affordable if miner manufacturers lower their prices.  Everytime the difficulty rises by X percent, the manufacturer needs to lower their price by an equal percentage or risk being priced out of the market.  The hardware company that can best afford to adapt to that is the one that will survive.



Do you know any company that systematically does that week after week, apart from Bitmain. I don't.

This argument is irrelevant, aswell as impractical. You can´t expect companies to lower the price every day, as at the end of the day they will be left with nothing to sell at a profit.

It also doesn´t change the fact that when you buy in bulk, you get it cheaper.

When you deploy in bulk (atleast in a smart manner) you get it cheaper.

Therefore you will always have an advantage if you are either a big player, or many little players together.
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June 17, 2014, 05:57:21 PM
 #3283


Such logic can only be present in cgminer. I do not think this is practical or possible to put protection in the miner, stratum protocol assumes that the pool is playing by the rules. I do not think that it is in the interest of any pool to do 51% attack, since miners will notice this activity and leave the pool immediately. Also, big pools are a party most interested in the stability of BTC currency and have no commercial interest to destabilise it. Even without ghash.io, if you have 2 pools with 30% each no-one can promise that they will not do 51% attack together and share the profit. I think that stability of BTC in terms of 51% attack is assured by the game theory dynamics - I do not see how can anyone reaching capability to do 51% attack be interested in doing so. 

Pools don't have any incentive to get hacked by malicious parties, either. An attack has already been implemented (probably by a disgruntled ex-employee of CEX.io) which used ghash.io's hashpower for malicious ends contrary to ghash.io's own incentives.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qqmr4/ghashiocexio_and_doublespending_against_betcoin/

Miners don't really notice as much as you think. Mostly, they do everything it takes to get their machines running efficiently, and then as long as they are getting a good hashrate on their pool and a good flow of coins into their wallets, they're usually more interested in fishing than in bitcoin network security. Many people are hundreds of km away from their miners, and can't readily access them to change pool settings. Most just don't care. If they did, ghash.io probably never would have gotten past 30%, much less 51%.

I agree that the logic would be best implemented in cgminer. Perhaps I'll see what ckolivas has to say about it.

Hosting bitcoin miners for $65 to $80/kW/month on clean, cheap hydro power.
http://Toom.im
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June 17, 2014, 05:59:37 PM
 #3284


Such logic can only be present in cgminer. I do not think this is practical or possible to put protection in the miner, stratum protocol assumes that the pool is playing by the rules. I do not think that it is in the interest of any pool to do 51% attack, since miners will notice this activity and leave the pool immediately. Also, big pools are a party most interested in the stability of BTC currency and have no commercial interest to destabilise it. Even without ghash.io, if you have 2 pools with 30% each no-one can promise that they will not do 51% attack together and share the profit. I think that stability of BTC in terms of 51% attack is assured by the game theory dynamics - I do not see how can anyone reaching capability to do 51% attack be interested in doing so. 

Pools don't have any incentive to get hacked by malicious parties, either. An attack has already been implemented (probably by a disgruntled ex-employee of CEX.io) which used ghash.io's hashpower for malicious ends contrary to ghash.io's own incentives.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qqmr4/ghashiocexio_and_doublespending_against_betcoin/

Miners don't really notice as much as you think. Mostly, they do everything it takes to get their machines running efficiently, and then as long as they are getting a good hashrate on their pool and a good flow of coins into their wallets, they're usually more interested in fishing than in bitcoin network security. Many people are hundreds of km away from their miners, and can't readily access them to change pool settings. Most just don't care. If they did, ghash.io probably never would have gotten past 30%, much less 51%.

I agree that the logic would be best implemented in cgminer. Perhaps I'll see what ckolivas has to say about it.


p2pool is the way ahead, murdof helped me set up an EU node for www.centralcavern.uk
and you can play manic miner if you get bored watching your SP10's on the stats page   Grin
Smiley

tips    1APp826DqjJBdsAeqpEstx6Q8hD4urac8a
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June 17, 2014, 06:03:22 PM
 #3285


p2pool is the way ahead, murdof helped me set up an EU node for www.centralcavern.uk
and you can play manic miner if you get bored watching your SP10's on the stats page   Grin
Smiley
You should have warned me about the annyoing and loud music.....

Anyway, as for the pool debate:
In my opinion we need more pools that work equally as well as gh.io .

In the end, pools are in a contest about miners. The best pool wins. Time to build or upgrade existing pools to the same awesome functionality and voila, no more problems with one big pool.

By the way: Do all p2pool nodes work "together" at generating a block on the blockchain, or is it every node for itself?
Edit: Obviously all p2pool nodes together.
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June 17, 2014, 06:04:10 PM
 #3286


p2pool is the way ahead, murdof helped me set up an EU node for www.centralcavern.uk
and you can play manic miner if you get bored watching your SP10's on the stats page   Grin
Smiley
You should have warned me about the annyoing and loud music.....

that's the fun part  Cheesy
ok, apologies for the annoying and loud music

 Cool

tips    1APp826DqjJBdsAeqpEstx6Q8hD4urac8a
Guy Corem
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June 17, 2014, 06:09:08 PM
 #3287

Do you have a private mine with your own equipment, built for your mine for you and your company and its Venture Capital investors?
We currently don't have a farm. Our data center is solely for hosting our customers units.
We don't have plan to have a farm during 2014.
We want to concentrate on building and selling the best mining machines, not operate farms.
Clear enough ?

Is this still the case? Will there be any disclosure should there be any future collaboration with Allied Control? Through what means will Spondoolies utilize to show their transparency to the community if you should start hosting customer units on a larger scale? To think that Spondoolies have not and will not consider immersion cooling is ludicrous (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

I do not have any problem with your products, which have been reviewed with much praise. Instead, I am more concerned that there will be another Bitfury-like entity, who have the means to control the total network hash rate.

This is still the case. We don't compete with our customers. Our business is producing and selling mining hardware and ASICs.
Our collaboration with Allied Control is due to customers requests. We got multiple requests for special blade like form factor more suitable for DataTank, based on RockerBox.
However, we still didn't start such a design since none of the prospect customers were actually willing to commit to the exploration phase of the NRE.

Guy

New Mimblewimble implementation: https://www.beam.mw
Spondoolies is back with the SPx36: https://www.spondoolies-tech.com/products/spx36
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June 17, 2014, 06:11:15 PM
 #3288


Hosting companies DO NOT pass electricity savings to customers. if you compare prices in WA-they are essentially the same despite the fact that they pay 2c/electricity.
Electrical savings transmission simply does not WORK!
Sure it does. Ask advania in iceland how much they charge for power when you supply the fully populated container.
They pay 4 ct for power, they will bill you 5 ct.

Instant savings. Grin


advania quotes $160/mo per Sp-10, this is much much more than 5c/kw (it should be $44 in electricity /mo at this rate), so I don't know where you get your numbers.
Of course, they should charge small amount for everything else, but not 3 times more than electricity.
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June 17, 2014, 06:12:16 PM
 #3289

But please do describe to me how you will be competing with (possibly immersion cooled) equipment with the best W/GH ratio and lowest energy prices on the planet (let´s say 5ct/kwh) by the end of 2014.
The immersion cooling is just about nearly pointless with Bitcoin mining. The only thing that its proponents bring to table are workarounds for lack of proper design and engineering. Immersion cooling with 3M engineered fluids only makes sense if there are real constraints on the cooled equipment: speed of light limitation, unusual complexity, high density, etc. None of that really matter for Bitcoin mining.

If your goal is low PUE then simply use typical evaporative cooling well known in chemical process engineering and refrigeration. Most of the required equipment is already available, all you'll need to do is bring a chemical/thermodynamic process engineer to the table with the PCB design engineer, who is already working for Spondoolies. Together they need to design a proper heat exchanger for the mining chips and the associated buck converters. I already asked Spondoolies if SP30 motherboard was designed for cutting into 15 smaller boards. Apparently not, probably because the PCB design engineer wasn't given this as a requirement. So they cut the heathsinks into 15 smaller pieces.

They need to conceptually invert that design: single large liquid heat exchanger and multitude of small PCBs hosting the hot chips is the way to go long term.

3M's profit margins on their immersion cooling fluids are so high, that they require scientific notation to fit in the spreadsheets. Just use common chilling/refrigeration equipment instead where the profit margins are in expressed in two digits.


We more or less agree with this analysis.

New Mimblewimble implementation: https://www.beam.mw
Spondoolies is back with the SPx36: https://www.spondoolies-tech.com/products/spx36
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June 17, 2014, 06:13:58 PM
 #3290

Hosting companies DO NOT pass electricity savings to customers. if you compare prices in WA-they are essentially the same despite the fact that they pay 2c/electricity.
Electrical savings transmission simply does not WORK!

Most hosting companies charge you two fees: one fee for capacity (per kW per month), and one fee for usage (per kWh). The capacity fee at traditional datacenters is usually around $130/kW/month (charged per peak kW), electricity usage not included. The usage fee is usually the local electricity rate, maybe plus a cent or two to account for cooling power and non-unity PUE.

The datacenter I'm building gets its electricity cheap enough that we give it away for free as part of the package. There are a lot of other costs that go into a datacenter -- rent, insurance, security, internet access, cooling, maintenance, and amortized capital costs, to name a few -- and those tend to affect the rates more than electricity costs in central WA.

Hosting bitcoin miners for $65 to $80/kW/month on clean, cheap hydro power.
http://Toom.im
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June 17, 2014, 06:14:03 PM
 #3291


Hosting companies DO NOT pass electricity savings to customers. if you compare prices in WA-they are essentially the same despite the fact that they pay 2c/electricity.
Electrical savings transmission simply does not WORK!
Sure it does. Ask advania in iceland how much they charge for power when you supply the fully populated container.
They pay 4 ct for power, they will bill you 5 ct.

Instant savings. Grin


advania quotes $160/mo per Sp-10, this is much much more than 5c/kw (it should be $44 in electricity /mo at this rate), so I don't know where you get your numbers.
Of course, they should charge small amount for everything else, but not 3 times more than electricity.
I hope you are just negligent in your reading, but as far as i know when you deploy your single sp10 you dont´ship it in a modular datacenter container, do you?
That would be one very lonely sp10 in one very empty shipping container.

You will obviously only get such low quotes when the ONLY thing they need to supply is electricity and internet.
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June 17, 2014, 06:14:43 PM
 #3292

Do you have a private mine with your own equipment, built for your mine for you and your company and its Venture Capital investors?
We currently don't have a farm. Our data center is solely for hosting our customers units.
We don't have plan to have a farm during 2014.
We want to concentrate on building and selling the best mining machines, not operate farms.
Clear enough ?

Is this still the case? Will there be any disclosure should there be any future collaboration with Allied Control? Through what means will Spondoolies utilize to show their transparency to the community if you should start hosting customer units on a larger scale? To think that Spondoolies have not and will not consider immersion cooling is ludicrous (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

I do not have any problem with your products, which have been reviewed with much praise. Instead, I am more concerned that there will be another Bitfury-like entity, who have the means to control the total network hash rate.

Gen3 will probably be deployed within DC and managed by spondoolies, as by then individual mining could (should) be no longer profitable.
Customers would probably have the possibility in buying hosted GH by then.

However, this is still FAR in the future when taking into account "bitcoin time" and only one of many possibilities.

For this purpose and for possible large scale investors in Gen2 chips / devices the research at Allied Control will provide some experience with immersion cooling.

Probably, very true.

New Mimblewimble implementation: https://www.beam.mw
Spondoolies is back with the SPx36: https://www.spondoolies-tech.com/products/spx36
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June 17, 2014, 06:16:43 PM
 #3293

By the way: Do all p2pool nodes work "together" at generating a block on the blockchain, or is it every node for itself?
Edit: Obviously all p2pool nodes together.

Both. Each p2pool node generates its own block, but shares the winnings with all the other nodes. That's why p2pool is so important. It's a truly decentralized pool.

Buy & Hold
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June 17, 2014, 06:17:31 PM
 #3294

Hello my friend, I've missed you. Is it too boring at one of AM threads ?

None of those companies can match the price point of SP30 with current gen and Q3 planned hardware.

It has already been done.

http://shop.rockminer.com/goods.php?id=34

2880gh for 4btc.

P.S.: Due to production issues, RX-BOX will be delayed indefinitely. Customers who joined Project R60 will receive 6 units of Rocket Box instead of 4 units of RX-BOX.(For domestic China customers: 3 units of Rocket Box instead of 2 units of RX-BOX)

Now coming with a surprise delay + extra hardware spaghetti monsters for the same hashrate!

H/w Hosting Directory & Reputation - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=622998.0
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June 17, 2014, 06:18:37 PM
 #3295

By the way: Do all p2pool nodes work "together" at generating a block on the blockchain, or is it every node for itself?
Edit: Obviously all p2pool nodes together.

Both. Each p2pool node generates its own block, but shares the winnings with all the other nodes. That's why p2pool is so important. It's a truly decentralized pool.

yup, stats page (again, thanks murdof) http://pool.centralcavern.uk:9332/static/ shows local hashrate, and global hashrate. <-no annoying music)
I've always mined DGM on small pools but after seeing murdof's own node, i got swayed... i'm looking to expand central cavern a bit into other altcoins too, but it is, just for fun really.

tips    1APp826DqjJBdsAeqpEstx6Q8hD4urac8a
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June 17, 2014, 06:20:49 PM
 #3296

I can't resist it (1). Amateurs time:

... Due to production issues, RX-BOX will be delayed indefinitely ...

New Mimblewimble implementation: https://www.beam.mw
Spondoolies is back with the SPx36: https://www.spondoolies-tech.com/products/spx36
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June 17, 2014, 06:21:21 PM
 #3297

While the new Asicminer (Roxie) devices may have an attractive price, they also consumer more than double the power than an sp30 and still more than 30% more than an sp10.

As to wether they will eventually be shipped one day, that is another question.

It will also be a hassle fighting with the cable monsters´ tentacles (aka the cables), which you will most probably create once you deploy more than one 400GH device.
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June 17, 2014, 06:22:29 PM
 #3298

I can't resist it (2). Amateurs time:

https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-94

Worth $7M NRE  Grin

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg7365785#msg7365785

New Mimblewimble implementation: https://www.beam.mw
Spondoolies is back with the SPx36: https://www.spondoolies-tech.com/products/spx36
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June 17, 2014, 06:22:35 PM
 #3299

LOL. Well played Smiley

Jonny's Pool - Mine with us and help us grow!  Support a pool that supports Bitcoin, not a hardware manufacturer's pockets!  No SPV cheats.  No empty blocks.
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June 17, 2014, 06:27:04 PM
 #3300

That is a strange form factor.

Also, you can get 0.7W/GH even on a 55nm Bitfury chip (or an sp10 chip for that matter) , so i would say the pricy 20nm isn´t quite justified

Again, power efficiency matters more than process node. In fact, it is better to have lower consumption on a higher node, as you can always do a die shrink to improve even further.

I was also under the assumption that knc spent nearly $5 million in their 28nm NRE as they were paying massively for overtime and such.
I was further under the assumption that they claimed their 20nm NRE was around 3 times as much as their 28nm, so $ 7m might be a conservative estimate.
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