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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1805121 times)
TPTB_need_war
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June 10, 2015, 09:20:23 PM
 #26301

Did you sleep well after getting spanked and pouting until downvoted?   Grin

Lol, there he goes again a programming dunce making incorrect technical statements.

Cypherdoc what if the side chain uses a different hashing algorithm than Bitcoin? What if it doesn't use PoW? What if it is uses PoW in a clever way that resists 50+% attacks (e.g. my design)?

what do you expect being in a Blockstream thread with all it's supporters cheerleading?  

why don't you answer the questions i posed since no one else seems to be able to?

There you go being the victim again.

Done.

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TPTB_need_war
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June 10, 2015, 09:31:57 PM
 #26302

iCELatte, have you dumped your XMR, btw?  the federated SC of Monero will make them worthless.

Incorrect. At least not if Monero is clever about what they do.  Lips sealed

TPTB_need_war
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June 10, 2015, 09:46:49 PM
 #26303

Quote from: gmaxell
So what if you take that idea of DMMS and replace it with a static plain signature, and the result is a centralized system which is better than just trusting a single server. It's a system where you can have real-time auditing by most participants, and where dishonesty is machine detectable. Censorship is not machine-detectable in this system.

Now invert his (Jorge Timon's) insight and you have my design. That is the paradigm shift epiphany.

TPTB_need_war
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June 10, 2015, 09:55:58 PM
 #26304

...changing the protocol to allow SPV proofs is an abuse of centralized power.

No worries. Core is doomed. A pegged side-chain with SPV built-in will win. Then minority Core will be 50+% attacked into oblivion. MPEX's short will be nullified by the peg.

TPTB_need_war
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June 10, 2015, 09:57:32 PM
 #26305

I'm advocating the most valuable feature of Bitcoin is the size of the network, that's what makes it better money than alts.

To be entirely nullified by my radical redesign of PoW.

TPTB_need_war
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June 10, 2015, 10:03:09 PM
 #26306

Full node volume has declined from a high point of about 250K in 2011 to maybe less than 10K nodes?
With the only incentives for running a full node being non-economic, primarily informational or possibly security concerns, it will be interesting to see if that rate of decline stabilizes somewhere.

We will shift to design where every user is a consensus mining node and the number of full nodes declines to dozens, but the design remains provably decentralized and immune to 50+% attack.

TPTB_need_war
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June 10, 2015, 10:06:04 PM
 #26307

Quote from: TPTB_need_war link=topic=68655.msg11571098#msg11571098

When the mining refuses transactions without KYC, then you will not be anonymous in Bitcoin. I have already explained how this will come about over time.

You are digging your expropriation grave with Bitcoin.

Anonymous cash has been the preferred form of money for the last centuries. It is only with the advent of Bitcoin in the last ~7 years that has opened the possibility of a traceable digital token for some delusional "one-world-one-block-chain" bitcoiners think its a silver bullet for every problem in the world, mainly against the system and its power-grabbing freaks they say to fight against.

http://www.wired.com/2015/06/tech-behind-bitcoin-stop-next-snowden/

Some of us see the threat. But how many of us are there? Enough to make an altcoin fly?

I think so, especially by drawing in the Silk Road market using an out-of-band application. What say you?

I say you have spoken like a true agent, Silk Road is dark web stuff.

And extremely popular and high economic impact.

TPTB_need_war
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June 10, 2015, 10:10:50 PM
 #26308

gmax et al are very highly visible and identified.  will TPTB let them implement all this privacy tech?  i don't know.

The privacy tech is not a threat for as long as the PoW design can be 50+% attacked and trends to centralized.

we do know satoshi left b/c he didn't want to get carted away.

How do you know that?

Btw, this is why I have to be more concerned, because I possess the one thing TPTB can't allow.

we do know satoshi left b/c he didn't want to get carted away.

We do, or you made that up?

As far as I know he simply said he was going to work on something else.


well, the ppl i define as normally social that leave to go work somewhere else stop in to say hi every once in a while.

You assume he wasn't the DEEP STATE. How do you know he wasn't?

Btw, "he" did stop in to say hi.

TPTB_need_war
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June 10, 2015, 10:12:30 PM
 #26309

my schtick is that this is more about a system of users and about money.  satoshi designed the tech to enforce sound money first and foremost.  it's not about the tech altho that's what you'd say it is about.  we'll see if it's really about the economic majority.  

but hey, i get it, devs gotta dev.

I will repeat for the 3rd or 4th time. You will eat your words as Humble Pie.

TPTB_need_war
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June 10, 2015, 10:19:35 PM
 #26310

Something's brewing...

Yeah a long protracted decline that didn't happen before.

TPTB_need_war
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June 10, 2015, 11:08:11 PM
 #26311

The main problem side chains has introduced for me, is they can steal my technology and put it in a side chain. So I will just have to put it in a side chain first and make sure I am siphoning value from BTC in a way that can't technologically be improved upon. I know how to do this because it was already necessary in my design.

So everything is falling right into place for me. Monero has eventually been co-opted by side chains (unfortunately).

The above is incorrect. On further thought, I have solved the economic threat of Blockstream's pegged side chains (it threatened to turn all innovation into Communism!). There is a win-win solution for side chains and altcoins to co-exist.  Cool Grin

Exciting times ahead...

Actually Blockstream's pegged side chains will send more BTC wealth fleeing into altcoin investments. It is counter-intuitive, but Adam and Gregory are achieving the antithesis of their stated effect.

Mixles
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June 10, 2015, 11:37:13 PM
 #26312

Cryptonote/Monero vs. Sumcoin/Blockstream's Confidential Transactions
Afaics, the anonymity does degenerate in a way that it doesn't in Cyptonote (Monero), which is conceptually relevant to my initial objection above regarding the fact that the recipients must be able to prove the amount they received (aka the Sumcoin viewkey).

...

The author doesn't state the holistic problem ... , that as values are revealed where the coin histories are not untraceable and unlinkable, then solving for other unknown values in the system

Thank you for your feedback.


I climbed down that theoretical physics rabbit hole and I am convinced there is nothing there. The entropy is limited by the number of opcodes in the hardware or software instruction set. It is not possible to spontaneously generate deterministic order of out disorder; and PoW requires a deterministic winner of each block. Order that arises from chaos was already there but under sampled (i.e. unobserved).

Attempt noted.

The author apparently thinks that users won't reveal their view keys in public.

The author (me) does not think that.

But does, apparently, attempt to publish pragmatic improvements in technology, without raising his expectations of others to the point of being discouraging.

As you do not publish your design, I can only respond with wild imagination. Your bearer coin might do well to hide values in its off-chain components; whether this specific technology may be useful for that, I do not know. I can imagine that the pure hash on-chain re-orgs are going to be possible and fun. Lamport signatures or much longer keylength for quantum computing. Of course, when people are Sybil nodes, and your spend is to an under-cover agent, and the courts shall accept the agent's circumstantial proof as sufficient and ignore the [lack of] math, ... oh what a world.

Donations to 1SumKArxoEJ1HoGibmj8ygw1DZWYBvjmM
kazuki49
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June 11, 2015, 12:15:36 AM
 #26313

TPTB_need_war, this thread isn't the same without your insight, I dont always agree with you but I know when I see good stuff.
cypherdoc
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June 11, 2015, 03:12:19 AM
 #26314

marcus of augustus stooping to new lows:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/39bwwn/arguments_in_the_bitcoin_block_size_debate_an/cs2f6fm

talking about bitcoin-killing extensions, game overs, and ELE "extinction level events"  Roll Eyes
TPTB_need_war
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June 11, 2015, 04:37:49 AM
 #26315

TPTB_need_war, this thread isn't the same without your insight, I dont always agree with you but I know when I see good stuff.

Much of what I write lately is referring to vaporware and isn't fully described thus it is of less value. I apologize for this. Rushing to rectify this transgression.

I am not a great writer, but I do claim to have a skill of being able to focus issues into their essence and clarify them for n00bs. This should help me explain any new technology well, so that it is embraced.

I can also confuse the hell out of readers when I want to or am arguing a multi-faceted issue that has a generative essence that most n00bs can't ever really wrap their mind around no matter how well it is articulated to them (e.g. apparently the power vacuum of the Iron Law of Political Economics aka the Law of Collective Action is actually an unteachable concept).

TPTB_need_war
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June 11, 2015, 05:19:14 AM
 #26316

marcus of augustus stooping to new lows:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/39bwwn/arguments_in_the_bitcoin_block_size_debate_an/cs2f6fm

talking about bitcoin-killing extensions, game overs, and ELE "extinction level events"  Roll Eyes

Your inability to remember programming facts and tie them together appears to cause your myopic chatterbox to ululate incessantly but fortunately not inexorably.

Larger blocks are a centralization accelerant for the reasons I explained upthread (which was mirrored in some points to you posted at Reddedit by nullc et al). You or others rebutted that IBLT resolves the centralized threat (that is due to higher orphan rate due to propagation delays for less well endowed full nodes) because all the transactions are in the mempool. I and others have pointed out that IBLT is just sugar coated obfuscation of centralization because all full nodes still have to process all transactions (note the variances in mempools that IBLT can tolerate must be very small) driving full node resource requirements up (forcing them off of home connections and onto well connected hosting which is more easily regulated by the cartel via their control of governments), else trust a full node.

Centralization enables an ELE event which is quite plausible and has been explained by myself several times in this thread. That is where the cartel masters via Circle, Coinbase, Paypal, Facebook, 21 Inc, etc move their zombie masses onto to a fork (probably a pegged side chain in order to avoid the WMD war with the MPEX GavinCoin short) which has the technical attributes they want such as central bank controlled debasement rates and mandatory KYC on all transactions, then they can wreck havoc on the Core chain causing users to move their value out of it and to this cartel side chain. The sort of havoc they can do on Core include for example G7 (perhaps G20) countries regulation of pools forcing KYC to accompany all transactions. As the Core chain becomes a minority chain (declining transaction volume) its hashrate will plummet and then the cartel can buyout some mining farms (which have become worth much less due to the plummet) to 50+% attack the Core chain. While the cartel is moving its masses onto Core driving up the transaction volume for ASIC farms, thus increasing the size of loans to create them, thus when they pull the rug (by moving the zombie masses to their pegged side chain) these ASIC mining farms will go bankrupt.

Larger blocks forces more users to delegate to full nodes (with or without IBLT), providing more top-down organization for the cartel to work its way towards this end goal. When they are ready to wreck havoc on the Core chain later, the larger the blocks, then the more they can more easily wreck havoc against the remaining full nodes they don't control. For example, undulating resource requirements by moving their zombie masses' transactions on and off the Core chain, can cause remaining full nodes to commit to higher cost hosting while capturing only a fraction of the transaction revenue. The attacks that larger blocks enable are probably more than I can enumerate in one post.

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June 11, 2015, 05:26:06 AM
 #26317


Centralization enables an ELE event which is quite plausible and has been explained by myself several times in this thread. That is where the cartel masters via Circle, Coinbase, Paypal, Facebook, etc move their zombie masses onto to a fork (probably a pegged side chain in order to avoid the WMD war with the MPEX GavinCoin short) which has the technical attributes they want such as central bank controlled debasement rates and mandatory KYC on all transactions, then they can wreck havoc on the Core chain causing users to move their value out of it and to this cartel side chain. The sort of havoc they can do on Core include for example G7 (perhaps G20) countries regulation of pools forcing KYC to accompany all transactions. As the Core chain becomes a minority chain (declining transaction volume) its hashrate will plummet and then the cartel can buyout some mining farms (which have become worth much less due to the plummet) to 50+% attack the Core chain.

Come on man. Stop your display of ignorance. Aren't you embarrassed yet.


That is exactly why chyperdoc always has been against sidechains.

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
TPTB_need_war
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June 11, 2015, 05:29:12 AM
 #26318

That is exactly why chyperdoc always has been against sidechains.

But he can't stop federated pegged side chains.

And pegged side chains are superior risk management strategy versus an all-or-nothing risk of Bitcoin vs. altcoin fork war (from a diversification standpoint, i.e. you buy the altcoin if you want upside ROI but don't have to worry about being diversified against ELE or a radical transposition of wealth effect if you hold 100% in BTC). Less risk means more adoption of crypto-currency in general.

Note I think altcoins can coexist and benefit from pegged side chains (nullifying the risk that pegged side chains could copy and steal value from innovation, i.e. threat of Communism!). They just need to be clever about what they do once pegged side chains are a reality in the market.

P.S. they ought to just increase the block size slightly and incorporate the SPV now, but unfortunately the myopic politics is slow to catch up to reality. Any way it will all be subsumed as I described:

...changing the protocol to allow SPV proofs is an abuse of centralized power.

No worries. Core is doomed. A pegged side-chain with SPV built-in will win. Then minority Core will be 50+% attacked into oblivion. MPEX's short will be nullified by the peg.

marcus_of_augustus
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June 11, 2015, 05:45:33 AM
 #26319

marcus of augustus stooping to new lows:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/39bwwn/arguments_in_the_bitcoin_block_size_debate_an/cs2f6fm

talking about bitcoin-killing extensions, game overs, and ELE "extinction level events"  Roll Eyes

Is it FUD if the dangers are real, clear and present?

Forewarned is forearmed. Anybody who wants to run on the XT fork deserves to know the dangers they are getting themselves into. Attempting to censor me through intimidation is not going to work.

Cconvert2G36
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June 11, 2015, 05:53:14 AM
 #26320

Cryptonote/Monero vs. Sumcoin/Blockstream's Confidential Transactions
Afaics, the anonymity does degenerate in a way that it doesn't in Cyptonote (Monero), which is conceptually relevant to my initial objection above regarding the fact that the recipients must be able to prove the amount they received (aka the Sumcoin viewkey).

...

The author doesn't state the holistic problem ... , that as values are revealed where the coin histories are not untraceable and unlinkable, then solving for other unknown values in the system

Thank you for your feedback.


I climbed down that theoretical physics rabbit hole and I am convinced there is nothing there. The entropy is limited by the number of opcodes in the hardware or software instruction set. It is not possible to spontaneously generate deterministic order of out disorder; and PoW requires a deterministic winner of each block. Order that arises from chaos was already there but under sampled (i.e. unobserved).

Attempt noted.

The author apparently thinks that users won't reveal their view keys in public.

The author (me) does not think that.

But does, apparently, attempt to publish pragmatic improvements in technology, without raising his expectations of others to the point of being discouraging.

As you do not publish your design, I can only respond with wild imagination. Your bearer coin might do well to hide values in its off-chain components; whether this specific technology may be useful for that, I do not know. I can imagine that the pure hash on-chain re-orgs are going to be possible and fun. Lamport signatures or much longer keylength for quantum computing. Of course, when people are Sybil nodes, and your spend is to an under-cover agent, and the courts shall accept the agent's circumstantial proof as sufficient and ignore the [lack of] math, ... oh what a world.


 Cheesy I have thoroughly vetted and confirmed your analysis re: NWO takeover of first gen POW attempts, feeble as they may be. My flea bites have necessitated a complete rethink of my theory, however.
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