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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1950443 times)
kazuki49
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June 11, 2015, 10:54:54 AM
 #26301


Note I think altcoins can coexist and benefit from pegged side chains (nullifying the risk that pegged side chains could copy and steal value from innovation, i.e. threat of Communism!).

Well, the altcoins stole value from btc innovation in the first place.

No they expanded the ecosystem by increasing innovation (even if in most cases that innovation was only to increase speculation opportunities since many come to this ecosystem for speculation) and that insight is also the generative essence of my insight into what altcoins need to do to survive along with pegged side chains.

Yeah, heres why I'm personally not interested in (Bitcoin) sidechains:

Sidechains are altcoins, which use Bitcoins as their basis. By subscribing to the sidechain, you subscribe to the same ethos as Bitcoin... namely, the vast number of coins owned by Satoshi and now the core developers (some of whom were rumoured or seen to have made large purchases of Bitcoins with the formation of Blockstream).

There is also a black swan in form of Monero sidechains brewing in the future:

Quote
The idea is that the dynamic block limit should give us the ability to slowly grow as consumer technology (bandwidth, latency, disk space) improves, but if we find that we're starting to outpace it we can make the limiter more aggressive. Moreover, we're (hopefully) going to have enough functionality moved to daughter-chains / sidechains over the next few years that mainchain won't be filled with unnecessary metadata.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/394dep/how_does_monero_scale/cs0utg7

can't status quo innovation in the Internet era Grin
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justusranvier
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June 11, 2015, 12:35:55 PM
 #26302

Attempting to censor me through intimidation is not going to work.

Hi guise, how's the slow-mo trainwreck going in here? everyone happy? good  Wink

Notice how it went off the rails when you started crappin all over the devs?

Try to keep it in your trousers, remember who's piloting this plane, who's the passengers and stop trying to grab the stick, KK? Ta, tally ho.
cypherdoc
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June 11, 2015, 02:56:18 PM
 #26303

such a shame.  GG dumping to new lows.  very bad sign:

cypherdoc
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June 11, 2015, 03:15:48 PM
 #26304

my, my.  /u/nullc continuing to be being assailed:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/39f6j6/bitnodes_which_recently_updated_its_crawling/
TPTB_need_war
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June 11, 2015, 03:17:32 PM
 #26305

There is also a black swan in form of Monero sidechains brewing in the future

Will never fly due to the consolidation effect:

I can't wait for the multitude of sidechain forks that all compete with each other. Sidechains themselves require incentives to operate securely, such as fees and the continued security of the Bitcoin network, so I'd guess we'll start to see a lot of the same issues in sidechain space as we do in altchain space. I really don't think there's any difference between the two. You can also issue your own assets already on Bitcoin (e.g. coinprism, counterparty), so the notion of token issuance for use in general scamming will surely appear on sidechains as well. You can't out-technology human speculation in finance.

There is no speculation incentive because all investments are denominated in BTC. Thus this will force consolidation. Unless there are revenue models and/or dividends for side chains.

cypherdoc
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June 11, 2015, 03:28:17 PM
 #26306

cypherdoc
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June 11, 2015, 03:30:35 PM
 #26307

more and more and more with deafening silence from the armchair logisticians throwing FUD:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/39a2ct/in_early_2013_it_became_a_common_belief_that_new/cs2ta27?context=3
cypherdoc
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June 11, 2015, 03:32:47 PM
 #26308

XT continuing to grow:

dEBRUYNE
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June 11, 2015, 03:41:44 PM
 #26309

There is also a black swan in form of Monero sidechains brewing in the future

Will never fly due to the consolidation effect:

I can't wait for the multitude of sidechain forks that all compete with each other. Sidechains themselves require incentives to operate securely, such as fees and the continued security of the Bitcoin network, so I'd guess we'll start to see a lot of the same issues in sidechain space as we do in altchain space. I really don't think there's any difference between the two. You can also issue your own assets already on Bitcoin (e.g. coinprism, counterparty), so the notion of token issuance for use in general scamming will surely appear on sidechains as well. You can't out-technology human speculation in finance.

There is no speculation incentive because all investments are denominated in BTC. Thus this will force consolidation. Unless there are revenue models and/or dividends for side chains.

So you're basically saying XMR will never fly because it is (currenlty) pegged to BTC? What is your opinion if it won't be pegged anymore?

Privacy matters, use Monero - A true untraceable cryptocurrency
Why Monero matters? http://weuse.cash/2016/03/05/bitcoiners-hedge-your-position/
TPTB_need_war
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June 11, 2015, 03:47:53 PM
 #26310

There is also a black swan in form of Monero sidechains brewing in the future

Will never fly due to the consolidation effect:

I can't wait for the multitude of sidechain forks that all compete with each other. Sidechains themselves require incentives to operate securely, such as fees and the continued security of the Bitcoin network, so I'd guess we'll start to see a lot of the same issues in sidechain space as we do in altchain space. I really don't think there's any difference between the two. You can also issue your own assets already on Bitcoin (e.g. coinprism, counterparty), so the notion of token issuance for use in general scamming will surely appear on sidechains as well. You can't out-technology human speculation in finance.

There is no speculation incentive because all investments are denominated in BTC. Thus this will force consolidation. Unless there are revenue models and/or dividends for side chains.

So you're basically saying XMR will never fly because it is (currenlty) pegged to BTC? What is your opinion if it won't be pegged anymore?

Is XMR tracking BTC with the same ROI?

My point is that side chains on XMR is silly. XMR needs to leverage BTC side chains.

cypherdoc
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June 11, 2015, 03:53:07 PM
 #26311

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/39f6j6/bitnodes_which_recently_updated_its_crawling/cs342fr
cypherdoc
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June 11, 2015, 04:04:07 PM
 #26312

with all the BS-FUD swirling around from all the armchair logisticians, the safest, wisest course of action is to fall back onto Satoshi's original vision, grow Bitcoin proper.
tvbcof
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June 11, 2015, 04:22:29 PM
 #26313


Is XMR tracking BTC with the same ROI?

My point is that side chains on XMR is silly. XMR needs to leverage BTC side chains.

The interesting thing about sidechains is that the could be backed by anything.  As a matter of fact, almost anything would be a better choice than a Bitcoin which is under management by Mike Hearn since the one thing which a backing store (be it gold, crypto, whatever) cannot tolerate are fungibility problems and they are the next phase in XT and probably the next item of focus if he get's Bitcoin moved under them.

If the idea of moving Bitcoin under XT does not become DOA, I'll have to bite the bullet and start researching alts.  I doubt that the Blockstream guys are going to just crawl away and die in the unlikely event that Hearn wins and Bitcoin becomes XT.  And I suspect that the Blockstream guys will see very clearly the impossibility of using XT as a sidechain backing solution.

There is always MP's 'real core' project which, as a hodler, I would be a default part of.  I'm bored of Bitcoin as a fairly useless toy for the elite however and really would like to see a way for it to be put to a more broad use for humanity.  Without killing it of course.


dEBRUYNE
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June 11, 2015, 04:24:47 PM
 #26314

There is also a black swan in form of Monero sidechains brewing in the future

Will never fly due to the consolidation effect:

I can't wait for the multitude of sidechain forks that all compete with each other. Sidechains themselves require incentives to operate securely, such as fees and the continued security of the Bitcoin network, so I'd guess we'll start to see a lot of the same issues in sidechain space as we do in altchain space. I really don't think there's any difference between the two. You can also issue your own assets already on Bitcoin (e.g. coinprism, counterparty), so the notion of token issuance for use in general scamming will surely appear on sidechains as well. You can't out-technology human speculation in finance.

There is no speculation incentive because all investments are denominated in BTC. Thus this will force consolidation. Unless there are revenue models and/or dividends for side chains.

So you're basically saying XMR will never fly because it is (currenlty) pegged to BTC? What is your opinion if it won't be pegged anymore?

Is XMR tracking BTC with the same ROI?

My point is that side chains on XMR is silly. XMR needs to leverage BTC side chains.

I get your point now, misread your previous comment a bit. I agree that sidechains on XMR and sidechains in general are a bit silly. Anyway, sidechains on XMR will probably take another couple of years, if they even get released.

Privacy matters, use Monero - A true untraceable cryptocurrency
Why Monero matters? http://weuse.cash/2016/03/05/bitcoiners-hedge-your-position/
TPTB_need_war
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June 11, 2015, 04:30:30 PM
 #26315


Is XMR tracking BTC with the same ROI?

My point is that side chains on XMR is silly. XMR needs to leverage BTC side chains.

The interesting thing about sidechains is that the could be backed by anything.  As a matter of fact, almost anything would be a better choice than a Bitcoin which is under management by Mike Hearn since the one thing which a backing store (be it gold, crypto, whatever) cannot tolerate are fungibility problems and they are the next phase in XT and probably the next item of focus if he get's Bitcoin moved under them.

If the idea of moving Bitcoin under XT does not become DOA, I'll have to bite the bullet and start researching alts.  I doubt that the Blockstream guys are going to just crawl away and die in the unlikely event that Hearn wins and Bitcoin becomes XT.  And I suspect that the Blockstream guys will see very clearly the impossibility of using XT as a sidechain backing solution.

There is always MP's 'real core' project which, as a hodler, I would be a default part of.  I'm bored of Bitcoin as a fairly useless toy for the elite however and really would like to see a way for it to be put to a more broad use for humanity.  Without killing it of course.

Does Mike Hearn really control Bitcoin?

In my mind, BTC is owned by the community and the community will assert its will via the voting for Blockstream pegged side chains economically.

Once I realized there is a way for altcoins to leverage pegged BTC side chains without being subsumed by them, then it all appears to fit synergistically together in a competitive ecosystem. One of the key innovations needed is to eliminate the 50% attack so that side chains aren't hostage nor hold Core hostage.

Thanks for pushing my initial (incomplete) thinking on side chains.

cypherdoc
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June 11, 2015, 04:39:41 PM
 #26316

even under the "benevolent dictator" scenario, that principal core dev would not control Bitcoin and it would not be decentralized.

the decentralization comes from all the full nodes, miners, and user base which is spread round the world with the economic majority calling the shots of which the "benevolent dictator" must listen and respond to otherwise someone just creates a hard fork to which the economic majority will migrate to all possible b/c of open source and Satoshi's original design.

which is why we need to stick to Satoshi's original vision and reject bastardizations of it like SC's.
TPTB_need_war
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June 11, 2015, 04:42:50 PM
 #26317

even under the "benevolent dictator" scenario, that principal core dev would not control Bitcoin and it would not be decentralized.

the decentralization comes from all the full nodes, miners, and user base which is spread round the world with the economic majority calling the shots of which the "benevolent dictator" must listen and respond to otherwise someone just creates a hard fork to which the economic majority will migrate to all possible b/c of open source and Satoshi's original design.

Overreaching diatribes that don't analyze the details are devoid of information.

There are many, many ways what you wrote about is not necessarily true. I've detailed several scenarios for control via centralization upthread (and Hearn might be one head of a centralization-by-regulation monster).

Yet it seems you are arguing that your hero Gavin (and Satoshi) has (have) no power.

cypherdoc
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June 11, 2015, 04:47:28 PM
 #26318

all of the armchair logic spewed forth from financially conflicted logisticians, including myself, are invalid until "proven" otherwise.  the only reliable, proven scheme that has worked to this day is Satoshi's original blockchain which has been constructed with the proper incentives.  this proven mainchain should be nurtured, cherished, protected at all costs to avoid subversion.
TPTB_need_war
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June 11, 2015, 04:50:22 PM
 #26319

Cypherdoc I have a better suggestion. How about we observe what happens? And you shut up.

I doubt your arguments have been informational enough to impact any of the key actors in this process.

tvbcof
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June 11, 2015, 04:51:25 PM
 #26320

even under the "benevolent dictator" scenario, that principal core dev would not control Bitcoin and it would not be decentralized.

the decentralization comes from all the full nodes, miners, and user base which is spread round the world with the economic majority calling the shots of which the "benevolent dictator" must listen and respond to otherwise someone just creates a hard fork to which the economic majority will migrate to all possible b/c of open source and Satoshi's original design.

which is why we need to stick to Satoshi's original vision and reject bastardizations of it like SC's.

Did Satoshi's vision include kludging around the problem that the 'correct' chain may not be the longest one and it might be necessary to feed auxiliary data to SPV clients such that they could make choose the appropriate choice (since, of course, the user is incapable of doing so on his own?)

Just curious because your 'benevolent dictator' seems to see it as a distinct enough possibility to publicly muse about.

I would suggest that once such a solution was in place, it would be an extra tool in the taint-coin toolbox even if abstract layer economic methods themselves failed to do the job.  The economic-only methods themselves might fail if Bitcoin cannot be bloated sufficiently so it would be good to have a back-up I suppose.


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