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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1957555 times)
tvbcof
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August 03, 2015, 03:49:37 AM
 #29681

2MB iCE and tvbcof?

We can build a bridge from the middle of the river?

What's the point?  If you want a universal crypto-currency which everyone uses for everything, do the calcs and do it.  If not, define where you want to draw the line (at what threshold do you kick people out and where do you kick them out to) and do that.  For some reason nobody wants to put any real numbers on any of that stuff.  Funny eh?


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August 03, 2015, 03:57:55 AM
 #29682

2MB iCE and tvbcof?

We can build a bridge from the middle of the river?

What's the point?  If you want a universal crypto-currency which everyone uses for everything, do the calcs and do it.  If not, define where you want to draw the line (at what threshold do you kick people out and where do you kick them out to) and do that.  For some reason nobody wants to put any real numbers on any of that stuff.  Funny eh?



Being everything for everyone is silly, I agree. But 2MB (max not avg) seems manageable for a vast majority current nodes. Seems satoshi's vision was scaling up where technologically feasible and reasonable, while maintaining sufficient decentralization.
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August 03, 2015, 03:59:29 AM
 #29683

2MB iCE and tvbcof?

We can build a bridge from the middle of the river?

What's the point?  If you want a universal crypto-currency which everyone uses for everything, do the calcs and do it.  If not, define where you want to draw the line (at what threshold do you kick people out and where do you kick them out to) and do that.  For some reason nobody wants to put any real numbers on any of that stuff.  Funny eh?



Being everything for everyone is silly, I agree. But 2MB (max not avg) seems manageable for a vast majority current nodes. Seems satoshi's vision was scaling up where technologically feasible and reasonable, while maintaining sufficient decentralization.

What happens when we hit the 2MB limit?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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August 03, 2015, 04:05:32 AM
 #29684

2MB iCE and tvbcof?

We can build a bridge from the middle of the river?

I suggested an initial increase to 2MB many months ago.  But everyone (except solex) was so high on 20MB++ block hype they ignored my proposal.  How nice of you guys to finally come around to my PoV, after getting #rekt day after day after day...  Smiley

I still support doubling max_blocksize to 2MB at the next fixed reward halving (and subsequent doubling coinciding with block subsidy halvings) IF AND ONLY IF the network suffers from actual congestion (IE competitive fees no longer properly prioritizing their tx).

Depending on the nature of the putative actual congestion (best case: sustained widespread actual use), I would even support 4MB to compensate for the previous halving.


What happens when we hit the 2MB limit?

Probably nothing, except further (natural, healthy) exclusion of marginal users.  We'll have more data/experience when we get there and burn that bridge when we come to it.

And no, I don't mind marginal use cases (spam/tips/coffees) being pushed off-Mainchain as fee markets develop.  That's just Bitcoin finally starting to work like it's supposed to.   Cool

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
Cconvert2G36
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August 03, 2015, 04:12:57 AM
 #29685

Seeing that 1MB isn't completely full (outside spam ops), a 100% increase seems like a perfectly reasonable compromise... Let's do this. Study the results, and plan for the future accordingly.
cypherdoc
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August 03, 2015, 04:32:39 AM
 #29686

Its actually kinda fun watching you get pounded with down votes over there. Keep up the good work. Kid.

Enjoy your fallacious appeals to popularity all you like.

No amount of "Likes" will reverse the simple truth:

Quote

don't you find yourself lame as hell quoting someone who's also getting pounded with downvotes?  and of all ppl, Troll davout-bc himself?   you're hurting your own case  Cheesy


davout-bc -6 points 9 hours ago

Why do you want to increase at all?

And for your convenience, here is the previous argument in its quantitative version: "it's easy to build (1..N) good payment networks network on top of (1) good settlements network, the opposite isn't true".

In other words: "you can build a visa on top of sound money, you can't build sound money on top of visa"



Downvotes (nor upvotes) affect the truth value of a statement.  Neither does labeling the speaker a "troll" (because Davout is a model of logical consistency).

I am proud to stand up for the truth, regardless of whatever passing narrative is preferred by the Frappuccino swilling mob.

You know what really is "lame as hell?"  Argumentum ad populum.   Wink

It's a good thing the legal system does not decide cases by popular sentiment, or else you'd be out ~3000 LeBronCoins.   Cheesy

Funny how it only became a real issue when I started wanting bigger blocks.
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August 03, 2015, 05:27:41 AM
 #29687

I would even support 4MB to compensate for the previous halving.


Stop it, or else MP will expel you from La Serenissi-bla.

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
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August 03, 2015, 06:09:40 AM
 #29688

You know what really is "lame as hell?"  Argumentum ad populum.   Wink

It's a good thing the legal system does not decide cases by popular sentiment, or else you'd be out ~3000 LeBronCoins.   Cheesy

Funny how it only became a real issue when I started wanting bigger blocks.

Yes, your hypocrisy became an issue when you begain accepting argumentum ad populum in one instance while in another rejecting it.

If you want to decide block size by a vote in the Court Of Reddit, why not do the same for your controversial hoard of coins' fate?   Huh

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
iCEBREAKER
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August 03, 2015, 06:32:47 AM
 #29689

Depending on the nature of the putative actual congestion (best case: sustained widespread actual use), I would even support 4MB to compensate for the previous halving.


Stop it, or else MP will expel you from La Serenissi-bla.

The La Serenissima trope is very useful for appreciating the many sublime aspects of Bitcoin Sovereignty.  It's also amusing!   Cool

Case in point, the recent discussion of how Layer 1 couldn't care less about what tx happen at Layer 2+, while nevertheless protecting their integrity.

"you can build a visa on top of sound money, you can't build sound money on top of visa"

From there, it's a short walk to Frap.doc's favorite source of maximum butthurt, Troll davout-bc himself's epic statement:

Quote
The true value that Bitcoin brings to the table is not "everyone gets to write into the holy ledger", it is instead "everyone gets to benefit from sane and non-inflationary financial instutions whose sanity and honesty are ensured by the holy blockchain".

IF AND ONLY IF technical and/or economic damage (IE actual congestion) occurs and persists as a direct result of the 1MB cap, the present controversy and contention will dissipate and be replaced by a rough consensus including MP.

That would put the "event" in "eventually."  Until then, "Not Tonight Dear!"   Grin

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
majamalu
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August 03, 2015, 06:45:51 AM
 #29690


IF AND ONLY IF technical and/or economic damage (IE actual congestion) occurs and persists as a direct result of the 1MB cap, the present controversy and contention will dissipate and be replaced by a rough consensus including MP.

That would put the "event" in "eventually."  Until then, "Not Tonight Dear!"   Grin

What happened to your faith in a forced and exclusive "fee market"?

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
majamalu
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August 03, 2015, 06:58:43 AM
 #29691


IF AND ONLY IF technical and/or economic damage (IE actual congestion) occurs and persists as a direct result of the 1MB cap, the present controversy and contention will dissipate and be replaced by a rough consensus including MP.


The problem is that what you call "actual congestion" or "economic damage" may be called "nice fee market" by others.

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
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August 03, 2015, 07:04:30 AM
 #29692


IF AND ONLY IF technical and/or economic damage (IE actual congestion) occurs and persists as a direct result of the 1MB cap, the present controversy and contention will dissipate and be replaced by a rough consensus including MP.


What happened to your faith in a forced and exclusive "fee market"?

Nothing happened to it.  The market is at present working just fine, as properly competitive fees are ensuring their tx arrive happily and promptly at their destinations, enjoying phenomenal security and thus immune to aggression from the enemies of La Serenissima.

Were a future event caused by the 1mb cap to disturb us Citizens of La Serenissima, we would quickly take action.

That would put the "event" in "eventually."  Until then, "Not Tonight Dear!"   Grin

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
majamalu
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August 03, 2015, 07:17:06 AM
 #29693


Were a future event caused by the 1mb cap to disturb us Citizens of La Serenissima, we would quickly take action.


Didn't you get the memo? The 1mb cap is not a problem according to MP, it is a solution.

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
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August 03, 2015, 07:24:26 AM
 #29694


IF AND ONLY IF technical and/or economic damage (IE actual congestion) occurs and persists as a direct result of the 1MB cap, the present controversy and contention will dissipate and be replaced by a rough consensus including MP.


The problem is that what you call "actual congestion" or "economic damage" may be called "nice fee market" by others.

Wrong.  The objective definition of "actual congestion" is "competitive fees no longer properly prioritizing their tx."

Bitcoin's economic/incentive model requires tx priority be proportional to their fees.  That is not a subjective "call."

If a competitive fee for a tx fails to ensure it is prioritized higher than tx with lower fees, Bitcoin is broken (and nobody with million$ in BTC is going to stand in the way of fixing it ASAP).

That failure mode has never occurred for a significant duration; Bitcoin was built to be resilient and antifragile for the purpose of ensuring that doesn't happen.

You may be confusing equality of opportunity with equality of outcome.  The Free Shit Army does that all the time...Bitcoin user not affected!   Cool



Were a future event caused by the 1mb cap to disturb us Citizens of La Serenissima, we would quickly take action.


Didn't you get the memo? The 1mb cap is not a problem according to MP, it is a solution.

We are in the present, not the future.  Didn't you get the memo?

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
majamalu
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August 03, 2015, 07:36:54 AM
 #29695


IF AND ONLY IF technical and/or economic damage (IE actual congestion) occurs and persists as a direct result of the 1MB cap, the present controversy and contention will dissipate and be replaced by a rough consensus including MP.


The problem is that what you call "actual congestion" or "economic damage" may be called "nice fee market" by others.

Wrong.  The objective definition of "actual congestion" is "competitive fees no longer properly prioritizing their tx."


The problem is that what you call "competitive fees" may be called "economic damage" by others.

http://elbitcoin.org - Bitcoin en español
http://mercadobitcoin.com - MercadoBitcoin
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August 03, 2015, 07:51:30 AM
 #29696


IF AND ONLY IF technical and/or economic damage (IE actual congestion) occurs and persists as a direct result of the 1MB cap, the present controversy and contention will dissipate and be replaced by a rough consensus including MP.


The problem is that what you call "actual congestion" or "economic damage" may be called "nice fee market" by others.

Wrong.  The objective definition of "actual congestion" is "competitive fees no longer properly prioritizing their tx."


The problem is that what you call "competitive fees" may be called "economic damage" by others.

Yes, many Marxists complain about the "economic damage" done by capitalism and marginalism.  They have no power here!   Grin

"Competitive" is objectively defined, it just means tx with higher fees will tend to be processed with greater priority than tx with lower ones.  You know that's a fundamental function of Bitcoin protocol (and in the social contract), right?

The Free Shit Army will always demand moar free shit and always cry moar about the unfairness of open markets.  But this is La Serenissima - not fucking Detroit, Havana, Caracas, or Buenos Aires.   Cool

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange  |  Buy XMR with fiat
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
klee
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August 03, 2015, 07:52:44 AM
 #29697

Mark Karpeles retells the Mt. Gox story!
http://youtu.be/JCR3722ACTI?a 

BTC: 1K9atu5zgz7izCMAynk5adBJ8Qn2YgS6nT
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August 03, 2015, 08:22:57 AM
 #29698

Mark Karpeles retells the Mt. Gox story!
http://youtu.be/JCR3722ACTI?a 

that's even funny! how does he do that
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August 03, 2015, 10:49:44 AM
 #29699


IF AND ONLY IF technical and/or economic damage (IE actual congestion) occurs and persists as a direct result of the 1MB cap, the present controversy and contention will dissipate and be replaced by a rough consensus including MP.


The problem is that what you call "actual congestion" or "economic damage" may be called "nice fee market" by others.

Wrong.  The objective definition of "actual congestion" is "competitive fees no longer properly prioritizing their tx."


The problem is that what you call "competitive fees" may be called "economic damage" by others.

Yes, many Marxists complain about the "economic damage" done by capitalism and marginalism.  They have no power here!   Grin

"Competitive" is objectively defined, it just means tx with higher fees will tend to be processed with greater priority than tx with lower ones.  You know that's a fundamental function of Bitcoin protocol (and in the social contract), right?

The Free Shit Army will always demand moar free shit and always cry moar about the unfairness of open markets.  But this is La Serenissima - not fucking Detroit, Havana, Caracas, or Buenos Aires.   Cool

The Paris taxi drivers applaud you.

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August 03, 2015, 11:36:35 AM
 #29700

You know what really is "lame as hell?"  Argumentum ad populum.   Wink

It's a good thing the legal system does not decide cases by popular sentiment, or else you'd be out ~3000 LeBronCoins.   Cheesy

Funny how it only became a real issue when I started wanting bigger blocks.

Yes, your hypocrisy became an issue when you begain accepting argumentum ad populum in one instance while in another rejecting it.

If you want to decide block size by a vote in the Court Of Reddit, why not do the same for your controversial hoard of coins' fate?   Huh

Same in this thread. The 1MB'ers constitute a minority of professional loosers.

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