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Yeah, do it! He needs to earn a few grand to pay me back for all the electronics he's broken in the last 7 years!

I think this a great idea. Or with Fiat direct TO EAC.

You are right that I can't complain abou the price. however, I would have noted any serious issues I had, if I'd had any. My machine was solidly built. nothing loose or disconnected. I have only turned it off to move it or play with it since getting it, with no non user generated problems. It appears this was not typical, but it is the case here.

The build was ugly, but functional. The packing was a disaster I do run it with the top off for additional airfloe, but even there I don't know that it's necessary. I am content with the device.

What bothers me is that there are so few of them in the wild, and that paying customers had to wait for a long time AFTER I got mine. along with the other things I have said.

I'm gonna run with this, speaking for myself rather than the OP. I think that investors should be more sophisticated. I am not good at exchange games, therefore I play them very cautiously with a goal to learning. And I EXPECT to lose, thus I do not lose that which I cannot afford. I don't INTEND to lose, but I am a novice and I know it and act accordingly.

I think the moral hazard inherent in the funny money that has been foisted upon us since the early 20th century has made most of us complacent and unsophisticated in a manner that would perplex our ancestors to no end. I guarantee that when money was still golden, people were MUCH more circumspect with whom they trusted. And those so trusted earned it. Those who didn't quite often ended up on the wrong end of a rope or a gun. Hard consequence? Yes. Effective? Yes. It was and remains a good model. The fact that bitcoin functions on that same model is a STRENGTH of the concept, not a weakness. There is little moral hazard involved in the circulation of bitcoin, as it IS scarce, it IS irreversable, and it DOES require the individual actor to have a brain. I think this makes it superior to most other currencies. I don't think it superior to gold, but it does have some advantages even there. Mainly easy portability.

If you look at it from a market point of view, this is a good thing in the long run. It's a wake up call for the complacent, a loss of malinvestment, and a good chance for all bitcoiners to clean their own house. Exchanges are necessary, but they are now going to be under far more scrutiny FROM US than they were previously. Those who prove themselves will do well for us and for themselves. Those who try to cheat will have a much harder time of it, and the incompetent will either shape up or fail.

Bitcoin is not harmed by this event. Mtgox is slain and a lot of individuals are harmed. Bitcoin is strengthened, and the harm done to the poor bastards who lost their coin is not permanent. They made the money in the first place, and if they are competent they will overcome the setback. Doesn't make what Mtgox did right, but it does set a perspective.

Don't harm the blockchain to bail out a bad actor. It killed the dollar, and it will kill bitcoin.

Or c) Holding people accountable for their actions, and requiring a high level of thought, diligence, and TRANSPARENCY from those we choose to be custodians of our treasure. Prior to being owned by governments (or the reverse, if we're to be honest) banks were beholden to their customers FIRST. Those who failed in that ceased to exist.

Those of you seeing this as a failure of a free market system need to educate yourselves on how the "invisible hand" actually works. This is a failure of a sub par company, which is a SUCCESS for the free market. A bad actor has been removed. Not bailed out. Not being "too big to fail".

If their intent was good, they were too incompetent to be in the business they were in. If they were fraudulent, then they deserve to be caught, fleeced as much as possible, hung out to dry, and consigned to the dustbin of history as a fine example of how not to run a business. Free markets are self correcting, and as in the case of most things in life, Stupidity on any actor's part is often painful and frequently fatal. The lesson to be learned from that is not to be stupid.

Perhaps I'm just inherently paranoid, but I have never kept coins online since my beginning with bitcoin. They are stored in my wallet, on my computer, a couple CD's, some flash drives, etc. I hold the keys, and my password is ridiculously random and highly encrypted.

I have used online wallets as a temporary measure, such as exchanging them for fiat or 1 day portability, but never more than 24 hours and never my whole wad. I use banks in the fiat world because I have little choice, but in Bitcoin, what's the point?

This seemed obvious to me even before I looked into Mtgox. What I saw there, two years ago, was a company that was either no good with money or deliberately fraudulent. People tend to forgive the former, but frankly I have less contempt for the fraudulent! Being stupid at your PRIMARY business is just inexcusable. In either case, they deserved to fail. Their customers did not deserve to be bankrupted along with them, though they should have exercised better diligence given Gox's history.

Edit. Former for latter. Oops.

Their opacity has cost them dearly. Even here, they had yet another opportunity to say "holy shit, this is harder than we thought!!" and gave us all REAL updates.

...And it would have been quite believable, since the very first board manufacturer to put out a WORKING Coincraft A1 based mining device says it's hard work even if you know what you're doing.

Instead, they post nothing, until just yesterday with those pics. I did find the pics more reassuring than the past stuff, but they DO NOT COMMUNICATE, which even if their intentions are honest makes them LOOK like a scam.

I've said this from the beginning. I've said it directly to Jim Brown over the phone, and he agreed! Yet it does not change. Something is not right. Not that this is surprising in the People's Republic of Pennsylvania, but still!

Technobit is on their second or third batch of the HEX8A1. Bitmine has started shipping with a few users having received their units (out of queue!!!). Amt finally figured out how to work a smartphone. Not copacetic at all.

I could be wrong, but I feel like they used me to drive sales by sending me the review unit, without the intent to follow through. Had they followed through, delivered quality equipment on time or close to it and in bulk, I'd be perfectly ok with that. Value for value. Instead I'm left feeling like I got a black mark on my name that I didn't deserve.

No violence really necessary, other than a thug to hold him down for a minute while you hook up the Sodium Amytal drip.

Off grid don't have to be solar. I have a lot of ideas on this. Off grid power has been something I've been fascinated with since... Hell, all of my life. My dad is an electrician, and he and I have discussed this off and on for as long as I can recall.

But this isn't the place for it. I'll start a thread on the subject a bit later, when I have some of my reference material close to hand.  For now, suffice it to say that for a serious off grid system, you don't want to plan around a single power source.

+ infinity! If the coins are truly lost, let 'em go. The rise in value will help to compensate people. In addition, they DID file bankruptcy. Their other assets will be sold, and disbursed as at least some compensation to the bagholders.

It does suck, but it is not the end of bitcoin. If the coins were actually stolen, they'll eventually recirculate. Not cool for those who lost, but no harm to bitcoin. If they are lost, again not cool for those who lost, but the coin becomes automatically more valuable on scarcity alone.

Gox going down in flames is also positive for bitcoin, as they were a nightmare already.

Advanced math is not my strongpoint, but what you say is what I have understood as well.

In truth, I don't believe the keys are missing or that Gox was hacked. I think somebody on the inside stole it. I have strong (but unproven) suspicions of Mark Karpeles himself, since NOBODY in charge of a business would fail to note a monetary hemorrhage of that magnitude. Hell, when I was an assistant manager, I'd redo the numbers ten times to find five bucks. I was in charge of a few thousand dollars, not a King's Ransom.

The whole thing stinks of fish.

I can't disagree with you there.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say. Austrian economics  is kind of an obsession for me. If I had started mining in the early days, I would not have sold much at all. Especially in the CPU days, as I had a half dozen computers running anyway. I wouldn't have cared about the electric bill, as I was making enough at my "real" job. As it moved into GPU's, I probably would have done some minor profit taking in order to upgrade, but I still would have held. I might have sold a bunch during the Cyprus crisis, but no more than 1/4th.

Would have left me sitting pretty when ASIC's came out.

Ah well. One cannot change the past. I'm building hashpower by multiple means right now. I haven't a lot, but it's growing. I'm glad I didn't preorder anything, as I've seen nothing but frustration on that front. Even on the KNC front, and they did about the best of the lot.

Another thing that I think miners ought to be thinking about (I know I am) is developing off grid power solutions. One can extend the life and thus profits of a miner by rather a lot if you only have to pay for your electricity once.

Yes, I understand. But I have also seen a number of people asking for a fork where those coins are destroyed and regenerated. I am of the firm opinion that this would kill bitcoin were it actually done.

I'm also not a firm believer in the (varied) stories of Mr. Karpeles. I've only been seriously involved in this community for about two years, and frankly, what I saw on the MtGox front page on my first visit was "mene, mene, tekel uparshin". I've never had a satoshi pass through there, unless it came down the chain from me. I don't trust the man or his business. It would be nice if it could be fixed, at least sufficiently to mostly reimburse those who hold coin there. But not at the expense of this grand experiment. Even if the funds are recovered, Mtgox needs to stay dead.

Trouble with that is that if everyone followed that course, there would be no coins, and thus nothing to day trade.

There are more profits than are dreamed of in your philosophy. I mined gold when it wasn't "profitable". And I didn't make a lot of money in exchange. But those weeks in the wilderness with nobody there but myself, my mining buddy, and a shitload of explosives were among the best in my life. I'd do it again in a heartbeat, if I could arrange to feed my family whilst mining. Which just might happen. Now, if I could do that AND run a bitcoin farm off grid at the same time, that would be the life!

And to be fair, you'd probably make more money than me. If that's the game that makes you happy, I'm totally cool with it. But don't assume that miners are ONLY in it for the monetary gain. I think you'll find that a great many of us do it for... very difficult reasons to put into words. There is something about the pursuit of treasure, digital or otherwise, that is it's own reward. The money is secondary.

If it can be done without forking the blockchain, I'd be for this. Also if it can be done without Mtgox coming back. I have no losses from this, but I do sympathize with those who do. Except the executive staff of Mtgox. This level of mismanagement, if that's what it is, is criminal. No one in charge of that amount of money should be sloppy at all, let alone to the tune of six percent of the currency.

If it can't be recovered without breaking the blockchain, let it die. It will make the coin more valuable.

I unfortunately missed day one. I was aware of bitcoin, and mildly interested.  But life took a rather savage turn right about then and I forgot about it for three years. Had I pursued it, I would NOT be broke right now. I saw it's potential and flat out blew it.

Ah well, live and learn. I still see myself as an early adopter, since the coin is five years old.

Right the fuck on. Miners actually have a great deal of control over the price. We produce the coins. As long as there is a real world demand for them, we can and do set the price. Or at least it's floor.

That's probably true, but I despise reddit almost as much as Facebook. It's difficult to read, impossible to search, and generally a pain in the ass. But to those who like it, it's sure to be a good idea.

I'm a bit confused as to your meaning in the rest of the post. What I'm proposing is a direct exchange from EAC to <insert local fiat>, but on a peer to peer basis. Not sure it's doable, but I think it is.