One more reason (and the opposite of the threat this model poses) is so that a large vested interest (think large volume money business, bank) can buy spot hash power for protection - i.e. if they were to suspect that Pool A is too big (or a competitor might amass contracts nearing 51%) - they might start to outbid competitors until they confirmed a minimum % control. Another way, one organization might buy massive spot contracts to execute at a specified time for control to reduce any potential transaction attacks. IOW, a 51% attack. No. Not an attack. In fact protection against a possible one, as I stated. Contracts to control 10% or 15% are not the same as something to control 51%. Suppose I have agreements w/ Pools A,B,C to watch for double spends when I make a large transactions. If I trust Pool A who has 30%, Pool B w/ 10% and Pool C w/ 3% I only have to guarantee that I control 8% or so to ensure that I am not potentially a victim. This does not necessarily mean that there is 51% capable of an attack - it fact it seems likely the trust relationship is only one of protection from attack, rather than one of attack power. (but that's just splitting a hair really since this same basic premise could be used to perpetrate an attack) Why doesn't it make sense to just buy bitcoins for too much? Just buy 'em on Mt.Gox for market rate you say? It's not very known what the exchange rate will be 6mos from now - if I don't want to make my business rely on my trading skill, and the risks inherent in trading, and more specifically the fluctuations and volatility of the spot exchange rate it makes much more sense to be able to purchase mining time at a premium. It's still less risky in some models than trading for BTC or purchasing gear. Again, as has been noted, it's much more clear to see how all this might apply to longer term contracts, but I see many reasons for spot contracts to have value. I think many miners are thinking on smaller "cottage industry" levels of scale, which make most of this, especially spot contracts, seem ludicrous. The bigger the business, the more of the business that depends on risk management, rather than simple revenue production. Seriously, I think I can come up with reasons all day long why I might want to buy spot mining contracts. I bet I could just make a whole business out of contracting on difficulty or hashrate dips. I can see the point of your spot mining contracts, but if you back up further and see it like this: If a business even has to invest into the stability of a currency to guarantee it wont succumb to attacks that could jeopardize that business - is it even worth it for the business to even use BTC to begin with? Because that worry is not there w/ traditional currency is there? Cuz the government continually prints $ and the value of it is established and noone can really just attack $ and make that business transaction suddenly worth nothing. Is there a premium paid when a business sends a massive transaction through the banking system which gauruntees that transaction wont be messed w/ and the bank wont go outta business or get robbed or w/e have ya...? Im not sure, but if there is and companies worry bout such things then I can see the spot contracts making sense in an environment. But if there isnt then...noone would flinch @ BTC . |
|
|
|
Pool hopping.
Pool hopping return rate is nowhere near 160%, even with a custom proxy and optimized timing. 300% if the timing is perfect, but the timing window is very tight, if you miss it by 15-20 minutes, you'd get shit in return. ....especially when your purchase got activated 4-5 hours later. used to be very reliable when there's only a few people. 300%?!?! I seriously doubt that. That depends on all hopped pools being EXTREMELY lucky and they solve blocks well ahead of the 43% diff mark. Its practically a max of 150-160% given normal luck, if timed right. It avg's out to around 130% for hoppers using bithopper proxies. |
|
|
|
Pool hopping return rate is right around 133% on avg.
Given electricity could easily be another 33% if you would normally have to run the hardware yourself. What does electricity have to do with it? electricity cost doesnt enter the equation here. Or do you want to buy my bitcoins at 120% market value if I mined them with expensive electricity  ? Ultimately all I can think of as to why (a question burning at me as well and I feel bloody stupid that I haven't figured it out yet):
There is some "trick" or "minor exploit" out there, Thats my thinking too. There is another angle you could to look at. As we all know, mining is a zero sum game. If we assume someone is indeed making profits from buying those hashes, then one question you should ask: who is losing? Its certainly not gpumax users. Best I can tell, its not miners at other pools either. At least their luck is unaltered as far as we know, and obviously their hashrate is unaffected. The only way they could be affected is if these GPUmax purchases are somehow driving up difficulty; in that case, they could be paying the price. One factor driving up difficulty right now is the "mystery miner". So I keep coming back to that, and I cant see what the connection could be, yet I wouldnt be surprised one bit if there was a connection. Somehow. All mysteries are related after all Electricity factors into the equation, based on what I posted before. As a miner, my electricity usage accounts for 33% of the coins I make, so 33% is already a loss. The other 66% is my profit. With purchasing shares on gpumax, you dont have this issue, because your not paying for the electricity of others. Therefore take 33% (in my case) off the 160% premium and around 127% premium is what I would be paying for those hashes. Also, to your 2nd point. There would be losses, pool hopping implies losses to long time miners at a prop pool, especially the longer a round gets past 43% diff. |
|
|
|
|
okies, Ill check then. Thanks
|
|
|
|
BTW, its been 2 days Ive been mining on GPUmax and I havent gotten my daily payout =(
I confirmed my address is in the account settings and enabled automatic withdrawal daily.
How often does it actually work for you guys?
Since there's been no (or little) public work, you get a payout from your offline pool, not GPUMAX. Um....Ive been getting my pool payout just fine, but my public work payout, well I havent gotten one yet and I should have gotten one a couple hours ago at least! Ive been doin public work a majority of the time in the last 2 days. |
|
|
|
|
BTW, its been 2 days Ive been mining on GPUmax and I havent gotten my daily payout =(
I confirmed my address is in the account settings and enabled automatic withdrawal daily.
How often does it actually work for you guys?
|
|
|
|
Pool hopping.
Pool hopping return rate is nowhere near 160%, even with a custom proxy and optimized timing. Pool hopping return rate is right around 133% on avg. Given electricity could easily be another 33% if you would normally have to run the hardware yourself. Your looking at bringing the 160% down by 33% to 127%, so w/ hopping youre return would be 106% |
|
|
|
Pool hopping.
Yeah, but the pools avail to mine too on GPUmax arent even that great for pool hopping. I used to hop w/ bithopper you need many prop pools to hop effectively. Right now GPUmax just doesnt offer that. I have a question, I have no idea what to set my asking price too for mining on GPUmax. Is the current fee of .000055 considered the middle of the road of asking prices by miners? If so, setting it close to like .00005 and I should still be mining publicly often? Its not till above .000055 that I would hardly be selected to mine publicly right? |
|
|
|
|
Public mining resumed...I wonder if there just wasnt any orders to fullfill during that timeframe...hrm..
|
|
|
|
|
Are the 1x-1x open ended? So I can fit a x16 graphics card in it?
|
|
|
|
All work seems to be going to offline pools again..  More bugs? Experiencing the same here =/ |
|
|
|
|
I scrounged up an old Athlon 64 3000+ S939 setup for my mining rig =P
It defaults to 1800mhz @ 1.5vcore
I declocked it to 1ghz @ 1.2vcore and RAM is running lower speed / voltage.
It slowed down my 5970 by a total of like 5mh/s but well worth the power savings of 15-20watts or so.
It has a 2.5" HDD for OS and no other perephials hooked up.
It uses 325watts @ the socket w/ the 5970@ 810/200mhz
Given the PSU isnt even Active PFC, its probably around 75-80% effecient.
Which gives a net power consumption of: 250watts
|
|
|
|
|
Oh wait, the purchase system is actually broken atm...I get a huge error when trying to click Purchases. Which would explain(hopefully) why Ive stopped mining for other people, rather started mining for pool again.
|
|
|
|
Why is purchases not working ?
Sold out to mystery miner  OH ... so if all the miners are currently busy w/ other peoples work you cant purchase shares? Good to know. |
|
|
|
Correct.. At some point in the future, the miner password will have a function, but right now it can be anything.
Sweet, are there any stats pages for the PPS stuff yet? Or is it still just blindly hoping my payment comes every 24hrs =P |
|
|
|
|
Why is purchases not working ?
|
|
|
|
Yeah no kidding, I care and am curious.
Cuz all I can see it being useful for is betting on the luck of prop pools.
Or manipulating pool rankings without needing to purchase hardware.
I'd re-word this and say you are risking on being the worker to find the block on a pool that pays in a proportionally appropriate manner, but not necessarily a proportional pool. What if your worker (your gpumax purchase) found 3 blocks in 10 minutes on a pool that rewarded you for that effort? Would that make you happy? Every single pool pays out proportional to the work that was put in on that round, some do it differently than others. Yes, this makes sense but your strictly going up against luck still. The MegaMillions Lottery in the USA has odds of 1 in 175 Million of winning the jackpot and people play. What's your point? Which is my point. From the mining side of gpumax there is no inherent risk / luck / gamble at all. Only potential profit w/ no risk of loss. From the purchasing side of gpumax there is a risk in not being lucky w/ purchased shares. Which I guess goes to say thats how it is w/ any sort of gamble... But, why not just do this on an exchange instead of using mining power. Its like taking 2 steps whereas you could just do 1 step to get the end result LOL. So, to use the lottery example: I guess the miners on gpumax are the lottery owners / printers of tickets. The purchasers are the well buyers of tickets hoping to hit it big. |
|
|
|
Yeah no kidding, I care and am curious.
Cuz all I can see it being useful for is betting on the luck of prop pools.
Or manipulating pool rankings without needing to purchase hardware.
I'd re-word this and say you are risking on being the worker to find the block on a pool that pays in a proportionally appropriate manner, but not necessarily a proportional pool. What if your worker (your gpumax purchase) found 3 blocks in 10 minutes on a pool that rewarded you for that effort? Would that make you happy? Every single pool pays out proportional to the work that was put in on that round, some do it differently than others. Yes, this makes sense but your strictly going up against luck still. So, in my case w/ the 33% power savings from 160%. Lets say I buy 20k shares @ 127%. Im willing to pay a 27% fee just to see if I can get more than 27% lucky in a prop type pool for those 20k shares. Thats what it basically boils down to. |
|
|
|
|
Yeah no kidding, I care and am curious.
Cuz all I can see it being useful for is betting on the luck of prop pools.
Or manipulating pool rankings without needing to purchase hardware.
**
I guess another reason why it MAY make sense is for those who pay a LOT in electricity to mine.
I know about 1/3rd of my mining goes back into paying for electricity. So, that chops off about 33% from the 160% one pays for shares. Bringing the payed price in shares down to around 127%.
I dont pay that much for elec, but also dont have the most efficient setup either.
|
|
|
|
|
So, is that the question thats being asked by you guys.. the same one I am? "who would buy all these shares at 60% fee?" pretty much and what would they be used for?
I will note some strange behaviour I have seen on eclipsemc in the last couple weeks. Normally that pool is around 400gh
But when our luck got really low for many blocks in a row. Our hashrate shot up to 900gh for a little bit(like hours or a day) then when we hit some good blocks our hashrate went back to 400-500gh.
I wonder if this was gpumax purchased mining?
|
|
|
|
|
Show Posts
