Why I'm an atheist

[Moloch]

don't you see how perfect the work of our body?  how perfect the earth is.

Actually I dont...

I'm colorblind as are 8% of men... that isn't perfect

The fact that we eat and breathe using the same hole in our face, ensures that a certain percentage of the population will die by choking to death... that isn't perfect design

What about Leukemia?  What about Down's Syndrome?  Is that part of gods perfect plan?

Did god also create the myriad of diseases on our planet?

Did god create the parasite that burrows into a child's eyeball and eats his eye from the inside?  That's absolutely horrible

The Earth is perfect?  WTF have you been smoking?

The Earth is survival of the fittest... dog eat dog... kill or be killed... that's not very pleasant for anyone

The Earth has earthquakes, volcanoes, lightning, hurricanes, famine, hunger, disease, pestilence, etc

You suffer from one hell of a confirmation bias

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Confirmation bias, also called confirmatory bias or myside bias, is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities. It is a type of cognitive bias and a systematic error of inductive reasoning. People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. People also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position.

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1714506462

[Trading]

On the perfectness as evidence, I know my sentence on having been nothing for an eternity and be condemned to be nothing again for another eternity is scary, it forces people to try to find a way out of what seems a terrible fate.

Who likes to realize that we were born as criminals condemned to spent our life on a death row (just with a very big jail cell) and to end it like executed innocent inmates...

But I can't change it and write that there will be a special heaven just for atheists.

Let me quote again Unamuno, Tragic Sense Of Life, 1913, III - The Hunger of Immortality: https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14636

 "I am presented with arguments (...) demonstrating the absurdity of the belief in the immortality of the soul; but these arguments fail to make any impression upon me, for they are reasons and nothing more than reasons, and it is not with reasons that the heart is appeased. I do not want to die--no; I neither want to die nor do I want to want to die; I want to live for ever and ever and ever. I want this "I" to live--this poor "I" that I am and that I feel myself to be here and now (...).

(...) and if I grapple myself to God with all my powers and all my senses, it is that He may carry me in His arms beyond death (...) Self-illusion? Talk not to me of illusion--let me live!

And you, who are you? you ask me (...) "For the universe, nothing; for myself, everything!" Pride? Is it pride to want
to be immortal? Unhappy men that we are! 'Tis a tragic fate, without a doubt, to have to base the affirmation of immortality upon the insecure
and slippery foundation of the desire for immortality (...). I am dreaming ...? Let me dream, if this dream is my life. Do not awaken me
from it."

Only Baudelaire, the dark poet, wrote about this issue in even more dramatic terms than Unamuno.

But Unamuno makes very clear that it's the fear of being nothing that throws people into religion, hoping, dreaming of something impossible.

Unamuno, who loved life so much, died in 1936, in the middle of the Spanish civil war. He was a Professor and Rector of the University of Salamanca.

[Hirose UK]

don't you see how perfect the work of our body?  how perfect the earth is.

Actually I dont...

I'm colorblind as are 8% of men... that isn't perfect

The fact that we eat and breathe using the same hole in our face, ensures that a certain percentage of the population will die by choking to death... that isn't perfect design

What about Leukemia?  What about Down's Syndrome?  Is that part of gods perfect plan?

Did god also create the myriad of diseases on our planet?

Did god create the parasite that burrows into a child's eyeball and eats his eye from the inside?  That's absolutely horrible

The Earth is perfect?  WTF have you been smoking?

The Earth is survival of the fittest... dog eat dog... kill or be killed... that's not very pleasant for anyone

The Earth has earthquakes, volcanoes, lightning, hurricanes, famine, hunger, disease, pestilence, etc

You suffer from one hell of a confirmation bias

"perfect" I meant is you have mind, perfect system inside your body. even if you have weaknesses, every man have because we're not God and we are created, you have something special inside you. the thing is you know it or you still don't know.

abouth the earth, God has created the good thing and bad thing. if everything is good, then how are you tested? He's testing all of us. are we pattient with the bad things or we blame him. if we do the right things, we will be given better things.

all of the rules are in Qur'an. if you want to know how perfect God's creation, read it. you can read the translation.

[Moloch]

don't you see how perfect the work of our body?  how perfect the earth is.

Actually I dont...

I'm colorblind as are 8% of men... that isn't perfect

The fact that we eat and breathe using the same hole in our face, ensures that a certain percentage of the population will die by choking to death... that isn't perfect design

What about Leukemia?  What about Down's Syndrome?  Is that part of gods perfect plan?

Did god also create the myriad of diseases on our planet?

Did god create the parasite that burrows into a child's eyeball and eats his eye from the inside?  That's absolutely horrible

The Earth is perfect?  WTF have you been smoking?

The Earth is survival of the fittest... dog eat dog... kill or be killed... that's not very pleasant for anyone

The Earth has earthquakes, volcanoes, lightning, hurricanes, famine, hunger, disease, pestilence, etc

You suffer from one hell of a confirmation bias

"perfect" I meant is you have mind, perfect system inside your body. even if you have weaknesses, every man have because we're not God and we are created, you have something special inside you. the thing is you know it or you still don't know.

abouth the earth, God has created the good thing and bad thing. if everything is good, then how are you tested? He's testing all of us. are we pattient with the bad things or we blame him. if we do the right things, we will be given better things.

all of the rules are in Qur'an. if you want to know how perfect God's creation, read it. you can read the translation.

Do you also believe Muhammad flew around on a flying horse?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buraq



Come on man... flying horses are not real

Flying horses are make-believe fairy tales, just like the rest of the qur'an, just like the bible, just like the bhagavad gita

All religions are ridiculous, and none of it actually happened


PS. Thanks for reminding me its nearly time for the annual "draw mohammed day"
https://www.facebook.com/events/1491745381115822/

[choppork]

People in ancient times think lightning came from the Gods and that lightning is their punishment for not worshipping and/or following their Gods enough. People also thought that fire came from the Gods because they can't explain how fire is created. Basically, everything that they cannot explain redirects to 'it came from the Gods'. Now, with that in mind and knowing that most of the 'sacred' books are written way way long ago, then how do we know that those that're written in the 'sacred' book are just another happenings that they can not explain yet in their time. Look, we can now explain lightning, fire, and etc. But why are people still reading the same book that their ancestors written?

[Jordan23]

You mean flying horses are not real?

[Trading]

I knew a junkie that said he flied every night on a horse through the skies.

One of the biggest surprises of his life was when he saw a horse at a time he wasn't high: it had no wings! This seems to be enough evidence that he was sincerely convinced that he indeed flied on a horse every night and was telling the truth.

Therefore, under the burden of evidence used by some of the believers that post on this thread, it seems that it's scientifically proven that flying horses do exist.

(sarcasm)

[qwik2learn]

Your statement that the brain can't have any activity once the oxygen flow stops is false. Brain activity measurable on a EGG only disappears after 20-40 seconds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death). This time is enough to leave memories of hallucinations. Actually, the hallucinations probably start before the complete stop of the supply of oxygen. And in that situation, 40 seconds of hallucinations might seem minutes to the near death individual.

This would not explain cases of longer duration, for example the patient in AWARE had perceptions which lasted at least 2 minutes and were verified by medical staff.

You can't compare a junkie's hallucinations with scientific experimentation. The patient from the AWARE study had a true perception of a sound during a flat EEG (indicating an absence of brain activity), so his experience (a so-called "death experience") cannot be dismissed as hallucinations.

Sorry to tell you, but everything seems to force [you] to conclude that you were awareness (you did exist as an aware person, so you were like human before you were conceived) for an eternity and are going to be awareness again (you are going to be alive again) for another eternity.

Furthermore, where is the evidence that the memories are being generated either after or before the fact? Thonnard's results evidence the validity of NDE memories, whereas the "God Helmet" or "flying junkie" does nothing but entertain skeptics. The OP simply cannot bear to stand these experimental results.


You (OP) were ignorant about this phenomena so you were not able to propose a valid explanation, instead you proposed a false one even after I told you about AWARE. The AWARE study results have scientifically validated everything that Hammeroff says in his Open Letter to Dawkins and Shermer and the four scientific observations about awareness that he makes there; there is no way that an atheist skeptic like the OP can explain survival of consciousness after brain death with his current thinking; how can OP still say that no anomalous perception has ever been proven to the satisfaction of reasonable science when veridical perception during brain death was validated in AWARE? OP has stopped quoting this post of mine in his replies to his thread. I gave him AWARE and the four points made by Hammeroff but OP has not yet rationally evaluated this evidence. A skeptic said of the AWARE results:

I was impressed that they did in fact has a patient who was timed for 3 minutes [while] his heart stopped. His brain functioning ceased within 20-30 seconds of the heart stop beating. This shows that these experiences are not hallucinations but are in fact real experiences with an afterlife. I am also glad that the scientific community is finally starting to take this phenomenon seriously with more research being done in the future.

One case was validated and timed using auditory stimuli during cardiac arrest. Dr Parnia concluded: “This is significant, since it has often been assumed that experiences in relation to death are likely hallucinations or illusions, occurring either before the heart stops or after the heart has been successfully restarted, but not an experience corresponding with ‘real’ events when the heart isn’t beating. In this case, consciousness and awareness appeared to occur during a three-minute period when there was no heartbeat. This is paradoxical, since the brain typically ceases functioning within 20-30 seconds of the heart stopping and doesn’t resume again until the heart has been restarted. Furthermore, the detailed recollections of visual awareness in this case were consistent with verified events.
“Thus, while it was not possible to absolutely prove the reality or meaning of patients’ experiences and claims of awareness, (due to the very low incidence (2 per cent) of explicit recall of visual awareness or so called OBE’s), it was impossible to disclaim them either and more work is needed in this area. Clearly, the recalled experience surrounding death now merits further genuine investigation without prejudice.

At least if OP cannot agree about the "scientific proof", he should be able to reply that these results are very interesting and that there is no reason to be prejudiced against the possibility of veridical perception. Why did you stop quoting me in our discussion, OP? Let's try to address each other's points instead of trying to address "everyone".

[Moloch]

I knew a junkie that said he flied every night on a horse through the skies.

One of the biggest surprises of his life was when he saw a horse at a time he wasn't high: it had no wings! This seems to be enough evidence that he was sincerely convinced that he indeed flied on a horse every night and was telling the truth.

Therefore, under the burden of evidence used by some of the believers that post on this thread, it seems that it's scientifically proven that flying horses do exist.

Definitely sounds like BADlogic

[BADecker]

Almost the only reason why anyone is an atheist is, he wants to be. Proof for God is all around us in nature, and is available in science, and is even available in the ways that atheists suggest that there is no God.

There might be slight chance that there is an honest atheist who isn't knowledgeable enough about science or nature to understand that God exists. But the knowledgeable people who suggest that they are atheists, do so simply because they think that they would like to be atheistic, at the same time that they know that atheism is completely incorrect.

[Moloch]

Almost the only reason why anyone is an atheist is, he wants to be. Proof for God is all around us in nature, and is available in science, and is even available in the ways that atheists suggest that there is no God.

There might be slight chance that there is an honest atheist who isn't knowledgeable enough about science or nature to understand that God exists. But the knowledgeable people who suggest that they are atheists, do so simply because they think that they would like to be atheistic, at the same time that they know that atheism is completely incorrect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against their own unpleasant impulses by denying their existence while attributing them to others. For example, a person who is habitually rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude. It can take the form of blame shifting.

According to some research, the projection of one's negative qualities onto others is a common process in everyday life.

[Trading]

You can't compare a junkie's hallucinations with scientific experimentation.

If the EEG was flat, what is the evidence that he indeed heard the sound? His word, like with the junkie?

The burden of evidence about the moment of the creation of the memory is on anyone claiming it was after the end of brain activity.

Who says that one has to register on an EEG to be able to hear and remember a simple sound?

We know very little about the brain. Neurons are still alive, they might be able to register certain facts. At least this explanation doesn't force to accept things that have no evidence, like souls.

I'm so completely overwhelmed with the weight of your evidences that I should post an ad to buy a flying horse.

[qwik2learn]

You can't compare a junkie's hallucinations with scientific experimentation.

If the EEG was flat, what is the evidence that he indeed heard the sound? His word, like with the junkie?

The burden of evidence about the moment of the creation of the memory is on anyone claiming it was after the end of brain activity.

Well, if you actually read the study or some of the discussions you would know that he actually heard the sound because he remembers correctly the actual sound that was played and this was validated by medical staff witnesses, and other elements of what went on may also corroborate that he was aware. After hearing the sound (and this occurred after 2 minutes), the medical staff shocked the patient, but he did not remember feeling any pain upon being shocked, so that is further confirmation that the brain activity had ceased by that time.

Who says that one has to register on an EEG to be able to hear and remember a simple sound?

I believe that this is the conclusion of modern neuroscience, that complex brain activity like perception, "hallucination", memory formation, and other higher functions are in fact never observed during an absence of EEG (it is the popular scientific opinion that brain activity is required for higher mental functions).

We know very little about the brain. Neurons are still alive, they might be able to register certain facts. At least this explanation doesn't force to accept things that have no evidence, like souls.

Neurons are definitely much more complex than something which can be reduced to bits and bytes, as I have explained before. Admitting this fact will destroy materialism though, because there is no other means for such information to be stored than at the quantum level in the neural microtubules as postulated by Orch OR.

I'm so completely overwhelmed with the weight of your evidences that I should post an ad to buy a flying horse.

I think the evidence speaks for itself; of course, it helps to read it all in detail!

[sunsilk]

Maybe your parents didn't care about you that's why you ended up becoming an atheist.

[organofcorti]

Maybe your parents didn't care about you that's why you ended up becoming an atheist.

Can you explain your rationale here? I don't follow your logic.

[BADecker]

Maybe your parents didn't care about you that's why you ended up becoming an atheist.

Can you explain your rationale here? I don't follow your logic.

Didn't take you to church.   

[organofcorti]

Maybe your parents didn't care about you that's why you ended up becoming an atheist.

Can you explain your rationale here? I don't follow your logic.

Didn't take you to church.   

Still doesn't scan. If your parents didn't believe in centralised religion they wouldn't have taken you to church regardless of whether or not they cared, would they?

[Buffer Overflow]

Maybe your parents didn't care about you that's why you ended up becoming an atheist.

Can you explain your rationale here? I don't follow your logic.

Didn't take you to church.   

If you are suggesting that a caring parent takes his/her child to church, than you must also be suggesting that the church cares for the child? Right? Makes logical sense.
You need to educate yourself the exact reason that the church exists in the first place. Spoiler alert: It don't exist for your benefit, only for the smart elite in charge.

[qwik2learn]

Come on man... flying horses are not real

Flying horses are make-believe fairy tales, just like the rest of the qur'an, just like the bible, just like the bhagavad gita

Actually, the people of India never had any doubts about the historicity of Krishna until the colonial invaders projected Krishna as a mythical figure cooked up by wonderful stories. Planetary configurations mentioned in the ancient scriptures pertaining to major events and personages connected, help us date events that happened around these personages, centuries and millenia ago.

While Divinity is a matter of faith, historicity is a matter of existence.

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dalNJ4luBws
Text: http://www.artoflivingsecrets.com/krishna-history-or-myth/

[BADecker]

Maybe your parents didn't care about you that's why you ended up becoming an atheist.

Can you explain your rationale here? I don't follow your logic.

Didn't take you to church.   

If you are suggesting that a caring parent takes his/her child to church, than you must also be suggesting that the church cares for the child? Right? Makes logical sense.
You need to educate yourself the exact reason that the church exists in the first place. Spoiler alert: It don't exist for your benefit, only for the smart elite in charge.

All people are bad people. How can we tell? None of us live very long. At least not when compared with time that exists. If we were anywhere near perfect, we would live a lot longer.

The difference between the bad people that are in church and the bad people that are not in church is, the bad people in church know that they are bad, and have come to God to find the only relief from their badness that there is.

"Church" is a term that can mean lots of things to many different people. Often, the people in the church are seeking to help other people find relief from badness. This is done by many outside the church, as well. But since God is the only true relief from badness, the people in the church are better at it when they explain about God.

God loves you, Fluffer. His arms are wide open to save you, if only you will come to Him. You don't really need church to come to Him. You can pick up a copy of the Bible and read it to come to Him. But I am of the church, and am extending the offer of eternal life to you, the eternal life that God holds out in the pages of the Bible.

Now tell me who is bad. Is it the person who wants to change his badness by going to God, the only way to change badness? Or is it the person who wants to remain in his badness by staying away from God, the Bible and church, and locking himself into his badness thereby?