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qwik2learn
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May 23, 2016, 07:24:40 AM |
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What I find so interesting is that in the sceptical analysis the transcendental and transormative element hardly gets any mention at all. OK, there may be something going on at some deep level of the brain, beyond the ability of instruments to detect. But is that really the point? Patients aren't just continuing to have experiences, something happens to them so powerful that when they return to existence they think and behave differently. What possible, meaningful neurological explanation could there be for that? My feeling is that no materialist account of the NDE will be complete until we address this. We should surely all by now be able to recognise that it's a coherent and relatively common human experience, and one that has relevance to the human condition, on a personal and on a cultural level. So let's stop pretending that it's simply some weird nonsense that happens when the brain winds down, and nothing really to worry about. Let's instead ask ourselves why, if we are the creatures formed by natural selection that [we] believe ourselves to be, something as odd and yet as meaningful as the near-death experience could ever have evolved. What's the purpose of it? Source: http://monkeywah.typepad.com/paranormalia/2008/10/dying-brain-hypothesis-not-dead.html |
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Moloch
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May 23, 2016, 02:43:15 PM |
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Let's instead ask ourselves why, if we are the creatures formed by natural selection that [we] believe ourselves to be, something as odd and yet as meaningful as the near-death experience could ever have evolved. What's the purpose of it?
The simple answer is that, according to the theory of evolution... mutations are RANDOM... ANYTHING can happen... anything at all... including random things like NDE This does not imply that it was designed, or it has a purpose, or there is any benefit from it... The only implication is that it is not detrimental... it is not cancer, or a deadly mutation... it's something benign... benign mutations are not susceptible to survival of the fittest because they are benign... that should be obvious to anyone, even a Muslim Survival of the fittest is not even about "better" mutations... its simply about not having the worst mutations in the group... Analogy: You and I are walking in the woods... we see a bear... I put on my running shoes because I don't have to outrun the bear, I only need to outrun YOU... YOU are my competition, not the bear That is exactly how evolution works... the group would see me with running shoes, and soon, everyone in the group would be wearing them (anyone without shoes is bear food)... the only difference with evolution is that mutations are random, and takes longer than making a pair of shoes |
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BADecker
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May 23, 2016, 03:16:07 PM |
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Let's instead ask ourselves why, if we are the creatures formed by natural selection that [we] believe ourselves to be, something as odd and yet as meaningful as the near-death experience could ever have evolved. What's the purpose of it?
The simple answer is that, according to the theory of evolution... mutations are RANDOM... ANYTHING can happen... anything at all... including random things like NDE This does not imply that it was designed, or it has a purpose, or there is any benefit from it... The only implication is that it is not detrimental... it is not cancer, or a deadly mutation... it's something benign... benign mutations are not susceptible to survival of the fittest because they are benign... that should be obvious to anyone, even a Muslim The design is shown to be fact first by process of elimination. There have never been any beneficial mutations observed. Neat idea, but no fact whatsoever. Probability math shows us that, even if there were randomness in the pure sense, it would have been impossible to have life through evolution ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1454732.0). The idea of natural selection shows that there is selection. Selection says intelligence. Intelligence great enough to be responsible for the complexity of life we see, suggests God-like intelligence. The overwhelming magnitude of numbers of this kind of intelligence without anything opposite being evidenced, proves that God exists and made the whole universe one way or another.
Survival of the fittest is not even about "better" mutations... its simply about not having the worst mutations in the group...
Survival of the fittest coupled with the idea of evolution shouts "science-fiction." Why? Because, even if probability allowed that something like evolution could have happened, the materials surrounding the evolving beneficial mutation, right at the time that the mutation happened, would have destroyed the mutation right on the spot. The point? There isn't any way to even give evolution the benefit of the doubt and let it be something that is feasible. Evolution that takes inanimate material to life is totally in the realm of science fiction. Believing it as truth turns it into a religion for the believer.
Analogy: You and I are walking in the woods... we see a bear... I put on my running shoes because I don't have to outrun the bear, I only need to outrun YOU... YOU are my competition, not the bear
Didn't see the bear's significant other.
That is exactly how evolution works... the group would see me with running shoes, and soon, everyone in the group would be wearing them (anyone without shoes is bear food)... the only difference with evolution is that mutations are random, and takes longer than making a pair of shoes
Evolution only works in the minds of the ignorant believers of it. Get rid of religions that are not based in truth. Evolution is one of them. Get rid of the evolution false religion. Makes for interesting sci-fi, though.  |
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qwik2learn
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May 26, 2016, 05:27:29 AM |
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Let's instead ask ourselves why, if we are the creatures formed by natural selection that [we] believe ourselves to be, something as odd and yet as meaningful as the near-death experience could ever have evolved. What's the purpose of it?
The simple answer is that, according to the theory of evolution... mutations are RANDOM... ANYTHING can happen... anything at all... including random things like NDE This does not imply that it was designed, or it has a purpose, or there is any benefit from it... How could you say that NDE is a random feature of consciousness? I and many other skeptics feel that this assertion is founded in ignorance. We should surely all by now be able to recognise that it's a coherent and relatively common human experience, and one that has relevance to the human condition, on a personal and on a cultural level. Hence, I propose to you the following for your agreement because I believe that this hypothesis (unlike physicalism) has the weight of evidence behind it: It is more elegant and far easier to accept as a working hypothesis that sentience exists as a potential at the source of creation, and the strongest evidence has already been put on the table: Everything to be observed in the universe implies consciousness.And how do you know that consciousness and NDE are both the result of inherited mutations? Is it not more plausible that sentience drives evolution since it is already present at the source of creation? Your claim that NDE is "random" has not been proven, and neither is it known that NDE has an origin in inherited mutations. You did not present any evidence but merely left the door open for faulty conclusions such as, "Because NDEs have a brain chemical connection then survival is impossible." That is exactly how evolution works...
My idea of evolution is mankind ending the cruelty that mankind does to mankind. Mankind has to step up before it destroys itself--each one must take the first step and find out who you really are: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-lqbp5m5N8 |
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BADecker
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May 26, 2016, 03:50:34 PM |
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Let's instead ask ourselves why, if we are the creatures formed by natural selection that [we] believe ourselves to be, something as odd and yet as meaningful as the near-death experience could ever have evolved. What's the purpose of it?
The simple answer is that, according to the theory of evolution... mutations are RANDOM... ANYTHING can happen... anything at all... including random things like NDE This does not imply that it was designed, or it has a purpose, or there is any benefit from it... How could you say that NDE is a random feature of consciousness? I and many other skeptics feel that this assertion is founded in ignorance. We should surely all by now be able to recognise that it's a coherent and relatively common human experience, and one that has relevance to the human condition, on a personal and on a cultural level. Hence, I propose to you the following for your agreement because I believe that this hypothesis (unlike physicalism) has the weight of evidence behind it: It is more elegant and far easier to accept as a working hypothesis that sentience exists as a potential at the source of creation, and the strongest evidence has already been put on the table: Everything to be observed in the universe implies consciousness.And how do you know that consciousness and NDE are both the result of inherited mutations? Is it not more plausible that sentience drives evolution since it is already present at the source of creation? Your claim that NDE is "random" has not been proven, and neither is it known that NDE has an origin in inherited mutations. You did not present any evidence but merely left the door open for faulty conclusions such as, "Because NDEs have a brain chemical connection then survival is impossible." That is exactly how evolution works...
My idea of evolution is mankind ending the cruelty that mankind does to mankind. Mankind has to step up before it destroys itself--each one must take the first step and find out who you really are: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-lqbp5m5N8Sure, there are wars and rumors of wars. Yet, over history, it seems that the percentage of people actually formally participating in the wars is less right at the moment than it has ever been. Jesus is coming. And the peace that He brings is preceding Him, like a gigantic aura of His coming presence, even in NDE activity. |
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BADecker
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May 27, 2016, 04:33:06 PM |
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...
Jesus is coming....
Quick, look busy....  For the creator of the universe, he takes his sweet time to descend from the dome/firmament. Maybe he needs a rope or something... Or a more sane explanation: "He is in your head... and will never really come.". Actually it's the other way around. Through cause and effect, and the dimensions, He is entirely aware of everything in ways that are extremely complete, way beyond our imagination, and certainly our knowledge. The coming of Jesus in the clouds as He prophesied, is simply the method whereby Jesus comes as man as well as God. The getting busy is something you should be doing. Since you are unwilling to accept Him, you should be preparing in every way that you can think of to fight Him. Why? Because if you will not accept Him before His coming, He will be the one that puts into effect your rejection of Him; into the Lake of Fire you go. |
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Moloch
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May 27, 2016, 07:50:19 PM |
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...
Jesus is coming....
Quick, look busy.... For the creator of the universe, he takes his sweet time to descend from the dome/firmament. Maybe he needs a rope or something... Or a more sane explanation: "He is in your head... and will never really come.". According to the gospel of Matthew, he's already 1900 years too late For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.
Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.
So... unless someone can produce a 2000 year old Christian... I'd say this prophecy failed |
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popcorn1
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May 27, 2016, 08:17:14 PM |
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...
Jesus is coming....
Quick, look busy.... For the creator of the universe, he takes his sweet time to descend from the dome/firmament. Maybe he needs a rope or something... Or a more sane explanation: "He is in your head... and will never really come.". Actually it's the other way around. Through cause and effect, and the dimensions, He is entirely aware of everything in ways that are extremely complete, way beyond our imagination, and certainly our knowledge. The coming of Jesus in the clouds as He prophesied, is simply the method whereby Jesus comes as man as well as God. The getting busy is something you should be doing. Since you are unwilling to accept Him, you should be preparing in every way that you can think of to fight Him. Why? Because if you will not accept Him before His coming, He will be the one that puts into effect your rejection of Him; into the Lake of Fire you go. JESUS will put no one in any fire..Now go and pray and ask for forgiveness..  I was wondering has Jesus hurt anybody and I found out No..Only about a boy who fell off a roof but he brought him back to life so all good..NO I DON'T BELIEVE IT TO BE SO.. I want to know what rituals the 3 main religions do or have done in the name of there gods.. Some crazy rituals out there.. |
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BADecker
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May 27, 2016, 08:34:18 PM |
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...
Jesus is coming....
Quick, look busy.... For the creator of the universe, he takes his sweet time to descend from the dome/firmament. Maybe he needs a rope or something... Or a more sane explanation: "He is in your head... and will never really come.". According to the gospel of Matthew, he's already 1900 years too late For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.
Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.
So... unless someone can produce a 2000 year old Christian... I'd say this prophecy failed My child, you are not thinking clearly. 1. We do not know that there are not people who are 2,000 years old or more. 2. Perhaps some of the people saw the Son of Man coming in His kingdom in a vision. 3. People who believe in Jesus salvation, pass from death to life when they die, so there are many people who are still alive in the Lord who will witness His coming. 4. Some people do not taste death when they die, whatever flavor it is. 5. When you are dead, your body is not you anymore. Anybody who rises in the resurrection before the coming is complete will see at least part of it. 6. The next thing that every dead person will see is Jesus calling them from the grave at His second coming. 1900 years too late? It isn't too late for you. Repent, and be saved, before it IS too late for you. |
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Buffer Overflow
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May 27, 2016, 10:05:21 PM |
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Jesus is coming....
Perhaps if you push your dirty brown tongue up just that fraction bit more, you could stimulate his prostate gland and he would cum sooner? |
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popcorn1
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May 27, 2016, 10:10:25 PM |
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qwik2learn
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May 28, 2016, 07:59:14 AM |
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I wish you would extend the same sympathy to me, but it seems that you are not ready to discuss the details behind the evidence presented by NDEs (specifically in Dr. Parnia's AWARE study) and Hammeroff, even though this evidence is totally in sync with the Bohmian model discussed in this very article. I challenge you to think clearly and show this thread that you are capable of intelligently assessing new ideas when presented. Evolution is proven beyond doubt, based on fossils and genetics. The mechanisms of evolution are adaptation, based on more or less random genetic changes, to environmental circumstances, ergo environmental circumstance and chance created our complexity. If your assertion is beyond doubt then you should find it easy to respond to Hammeroff's assertion that feelings came before the brain, and that it is easier to accept that consciousness drives evolution. How do you respond to his arguments? "it would have destroyed the complexity almost faster than it could make the complexity."
This is a statement of fact, I guess you have hard evidence to justify why it would be faster destroying than making us? Anyway, if you gave chance enough time, it will destroy us. Just don't wait standing. Why are you refusing to discuss the complexity of the paramecium (per Hammeroff) and the complexity of the NDE? The first suggests microtubules as a sort of facilitator of consciousness, and the second suggests that consciousness is imperishable and fundamental. The evidence appears to be sound, so what exactly is your hang-up about these ideas? "Math and probability prove that the complexity of the universe could not have happened by chance."
Since we are more complex than any galaxy (we have more cells than a galaxy has stars and, probably, planets), and we were made by evolution that is determined by chance and adaptation to circumstances, it seems your math and probabilities (that, as usually, you don't present) are wrong.
If that is true, then why are you refusing to engage in a rational debate with me at this juncture? I am one who is skeptical about Darwinian evolution, but who HAS the evidence to back up the new scientific theories, all of which are needed to transform our understanding of various mysterious observations such as NDE and the observations reviewed by Hammeroff. I still don't have any concrete information about why you disagree with the observations that have been presented; My goal in this discussion is to convince you of this idea: It is more elegant and far easier to accept as a working hypothesis that sentience exists as a potential at the source of creation, and the strongest evidence has already been put on the table: Everything to be observed in the universe implies consciousness. |
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Moloch
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May 28, 2016, 02:21:20 PM |
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Nailed it!  |
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BADecker
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May 28, 2016, 08:22:15 PM |
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Nailed it! Yes. God has sent good people here to stop problems in this life. The thing that tarnishes ith goodness of good people is when they do not accept God. |
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May 28, 2016, 08:53:03 PM |
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Nailed it! Yes. God has sent good people here to stop problems in this life. So he must of sent the bad people here to start problems in this life as well. In which case the good people aren't truly good people because it wasn't their choice to be good. Same logic with the bad people as well. |
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BADecker
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May 28, 2016, 09:02:29 PM |
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Nailed it! Yes. God has sent good people here to stop problems in this life. So he must of sent the bad people here to start problems in this life as well. In which case the good people aren't truly good people because it wasn't their choice to be good. Same logic with the bad people as well. Your logic is based on lack of knowledge of the complexity of the universe. However, if anyone is given a second chance because of his inability to think straight, it will be you. |
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Buffer Overflow
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May 28, 2016, 09:12:06 PM |
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Nailed it! Yes. God has sent good people here to stop problems in this life. So he must of sent the bad people here to start problems in this life as well. In which case the good people aren't truly good people because it wasn't their choice to be good. Same logic with the bad people as well. Your logic is based on lack of knowledge of the complexity of the universe. However, if anyone is given a second chance because of his inability to think straight, it will be you. Sounds to me you couldn't come up with a good answer to my previous post, so you just pressed some random keyboard buttons and that nonsense popped out. |
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Moloch
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May 29, 2016, 03:01:11 PM |
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Trading (OP)
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Nothing like healthy scepticism and hard evidence
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June 03, 2016, 05:07:58 PM |
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On the issue of the return of Jesus: Another chemical, Psilocybin (found on certain mushrooms and with promising results on depression), provoked mystic and religious experiences on people that took it: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/opinion/sunday/can-mushrooms-treat-depression.htmlhttp://www.nature.com/news/magic-mushroom-drug-lifts-depression-in-first-human-trial-1.19919https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PsilocybinIt seems scientists discovered another chemical that has as an effect granting that Jesus will appear to you. I guess psilocybin, ketamine and similar chemicals, are to god/Jesus what the bell was to Pavlov's dogs. Every time Pavlov ringed the bell, his trained dogs salivated. Now, we discovered god's conditioned reflex: one takes Psilocybin and god appears obediently to us. It's great that god/Jesus are even better than quantum particles, they can be at the same time on millions of different places. However, it seems that, if a lot of people start using this in order to cure depression, they will put under pressure this omnipresence of the Christian divine family. The holy father, Jesus, the holy ghost, the "virgin" Mary or other members of the vast divine family (isn't Christianism considered a monotheism?), shall be conditioned to appear to a lot of people. If you are not a christian, this will work also on your god. It seems granted: he will appear. I can imagine the future ads about these chemicals: "Have a chat with god everyday", "Arrange with god your arrival to paradise", "We can guaranty you divine attention daily" or "Tired of god not answering back?". Disclaimer: it seems that it only works if you are a believer. I wonder if you know why? (no offense intended) |
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BADecker
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June 03, 2016, 05:47:14 PM |
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On the issue of the return of Jesus: Another chemical, Psilocybin (found on certain mushrooms and with promising results on depression), provoked mystic and religious experiences on people that took it: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/opinion/sunday/can-mushrooms-treat-depression.htmlhttp://www.nature.com/news/magic-mushroom-drug-lifts-depression-in-first-human-trial-1.19919https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PsilocybinIt seems scientists discovered another chemical that has as an effect granting that Jesus will appear to you. I guess psilocybin, ketamine and similar chemicals, are to god/Jesus what the bell was to Pavlov's dogs. Every time Pavlov ringed the bell, his trained dogs salivated. Now, we discovered god's conditioned reflex: one takes Psilocybin and god appears obediently to us. It's great that god/Jesus are even better than quantum particles, they can be at the same time on millions of different places. However, it seems that, if a lot of people start using this in order to cure depression, they will put under pressure this omnipresence of the Christian divine family. The holy father, Jesus, the holy ghost, the "virgin" Mary or other members of the vast divine family (isn't Christianism considered a monotheism?), shall be conditioned to appear to a lot of people. If you are not a christian, this will work also on your god. It seems granted: he will appear. I can imagine the future ads about these chemicals: "Have a chat with god everyday", "Arrange with god your arrival to paradise", "We can guaranty you divine attention daily" or "Tired of god not answering back?". Disclaimer: it seems that it only works if you are a believer. I wonder if you know why? (no offense intended) Your post has to do with things that people think. God gives people the ability to think and to interact with Him in other ways, as well. |
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