margin terminal is now FREE - bots for over 30 exchanges

[ewibit]

Suggestion, Don't rebrand and keep your lifetime customers happy and only charge new customers the subscription model,

+1

hope so too

[leonArdo@margin]

Jonathan, I currently own a license just for Bittrex. The idea was to test on Bittrex first then see what happens.

Now, I need Binance support as well quite badly. But I'm not quite sure what is the right direction right now since you are in the middle of switching the platform. Does it make sense to get a license for Leonardo on Binance right now or should I wait? My intention is to try out the new subscription model as well but I would need both Bittrex and Binance support.

Thank you.

If you want to switch to binance to try it out just contact us at support@marginsoftare.de

Edit Opps, there is a typo in the mail address: support@marginsoftware.de

Basically, if after the free period of margin ends you think you will revert to leonArdo then it makes sense to purchase an add on exchange.

If you think you will stick with margin then you will get access to all exchanges once we switch.

Best wishes,
Jonathan

[Rapturoso]

Please... Stop complaining in this thread, it's been going long enough. I've been in the software industry longer than most of you, so I can say I've seen fair share of what happened over the recent history. Not everything is fair in this world and when there are differences in arguments between two parties, PLEASE look at them from both side's perspectives. Hopefully it will be easier to understand the conflicting situation after that.

How do you know if there are better options than this FOR ME? I would think I'd know how to evaluate products that suit me. And I have looked at more than a few now. You are just declaring a war against them and trying to scrape existing customers away from them. I don't like that strategy. If you don't like software or their support, fine I can respect that. But please don't go any further than that.

I like supporting local economy for consumables. Similarly, I like supporting small startups started by younger people with ideas, passion and drives, even if they make mistakes.

That's my 2c.

I don't know if there are better options for you and I never promised I could offer you that over at Crypto Play Radio,  it's just a suggestion and I said our members were looking into viable alternatives.  Also we do not have a product to lure people away from Margin Software with.  All we talk about in the Discord is crypto and anything new on the scene.  This bait and switch that Margin Software have done with Leonardo has become a hot topic because of the controversial nature of shafting lifetime customers and knocking them down to actually owning nothing of worth, even after purchasing the promised lifetime 7 exchange access package. What's the good of having 7 exchanges for lifetime access if the access doesn't work, if they break or don't work for any reason like API changes? It's made our purchase pointless.

If on the other hand you would actually like to chat about anything crypto related, our Discord is filled with people with all different views of course. Hope to see you there  :-)

Crypto Play Radio Discord https://discord.gg/7VPvgrm

[blokHed]

The current version works with OSX 10.11, but not 10.9.5.
Is there a working version for 10.9.5? What are minimum system requirements?

[yhbae]

Please... Stop complaining in this thread, it's been going long enough. I've been in the software industry longer than most of you, so I can say I've seen fair share of what happened over the recent history. Not everything is fair in this world and when there are differences in arguments between two parties, PLEASE look at them from both side's perspectives. Hopefully it will be easier to understand the conflicting situation after that.

How do you know if there are better options than this FOR ME? I would think I'd know how to evaluate products that suit me. And I have looked at more than a few now. You are just declaring a war against them and trying to scrape existing customers away from them. I don't like that strategy. If you don't like software or their support, fine I can respect that. But please don't go any further than that.

I like supporting local economy for consumables. Similarly, I like supporting small startups started by younger people with ideas, passion and drives, even if they make mistakes.

That's my 2c.

I don't know if there are better options for you and I never promised I could offer you that over at Crypto Play Radio,  it's just a suggestion and I said our members were looking into viable alternatives.  Also we do not have a product to lure people away from Margin Software with.  All we talk about in the Discord is crypto and anything new on the scene.  This bait and switch that Margin Software have done with Leonardo has become a hot topic because of the controversial nature of shafting lifetime customers and knocking them down to actually owning nothing of worth, even after purchasing the promised lifetime 7 exchange access package. What's the good of having 7 exchanges for lifetime access if the access doesn't work, if they break or don't work for any reason like API changes? It's made our purchase pointless.

If on the other hand you would actually like to chat about anything crypto related, our Discord is filled with people with all different views of course. Hope to see you there  :-)

Fine, that sounds reasonable. I may check it out. Thanks.

I too have purchased Leonardo with the understanding that it would come with a lifetime support. But situations change. That model would not have allowed them to survive which means lifetime support is meaningless. So they have come up with an alternative pricing plan, but with some perks for existing customers. I'm fine with that. It's pretty harsh to call that a 'bait and switch'.

[Rapturoso]

Fine, that sounds reasonable. I may check it out. Thanks.

I too have purchased Leonardo with the understanding that it would come with a lifetime support. But situations change. That model would not have allowed them to survive which means lifetime support is meaningless. So they have come up with an alternative pricing plan, but with some perks for existing customers. I'm fine with that. It's pretty harsh to call that a 'bait and switch'.

I don't believe it's harsh at all.  That's exactly what it is!  Should Jonathan have honored the lifetime customers and just started charging new customers the subscription model, this would have served his business just as well.  Now he has just alienated a lot of his loyal 'beta testers', eh-hem, "Hero" customers, just so that they can do all the hard work of experiencing glitches, bugs and inadequacies, lose money on trades stuck whilst Leonardo crashes and then shaft them for the effort of reporting all those things so that he can fix them for a subscription model rebrand. It's a clear bait and switch.

Crypto Play Radio Discord https://discord.gg/7VPvgrm

[leonArdo@margin]

The current version works with OSX 10.11, but not 10.9.5.
Is there a working version for 10.9.5? What are minimum system requirements?

I think the min version is 10.10 (Yosimite), but I'll have to check this...

[leonArdo@margin]

Fine, that sounds reasonable. I may check it out. Thanks.

I too have purchased Leonardo with the understanding that it would come with a lifetime support. But situations change. That model would not have allowed them to survive which means lifetime support is meaningless. So they have come up with an alternative pricing plan, but with some perks for existing customers. I'm fine with that. It's pretty harsh to call that a 'bait and switch'.

I don't believe it's harsh at all.  That's exactly what it is!  Should Jonathan have honored the lifetime customers and just started charging new customers the subscription model, this would have served his business just as well.  Now he has just alienated a lot of his loyal 'beta testers', eh-hem, "Hero" customers, just so that they can do all the hard work of experiencing glitches, bugs and inadequacies, lose money on trades stuck whilst Leonardo crashes and then shaft them for the effort of reporting all those things so that he can fix them for a subscription model rebrand. It's a clear bait and switch.

Bullcrap.

Enough of your time wasting Rapturoso.

Jonathan

PS You know that when Windows went from '95 to version '98 people had to pay for it, right?

[Rapturoso]

Fine, that sounds reasonable. I may check it out. Thanks.

I too have purchased Leonardo with the understanding that it would come with a lifetime support. But situations change. That model would not have allowed them to survive which means lifetime support is meaningless. So they have come up with an alternative pricing plan, but with some perks for existing customers. I'm fine with that. It's pretty harsh to call that a 'bait and switch'.

I don't believe it's harsh at all.  That's exactly what it is!  Should Jonathan have honored the lifetime customers and just started charging new customers the subscription model, this would have served his business just as well.  Now he has just alienated a lot of his loyal 'beta testers', eh-hem, "Hero" customers, just so that they can do all the hard work of experiencing glitches, bugs and inadequacies, lose money on trades stuck whilst Leonardo crashes and then shaft them for the effort of reporting all those things so that he can fix them for a subscription model rebrand. It's a clear bait and switch.

Bullcrap.

Enough of your time wasting Rapturoso.

Jonathan

Wow, Aggressive!  I guess the truth really does hurt!  Now I can see that you do not treat your customers with the professional courtesy that any reputable company should.

Who would want to do business with you and buy into your bait and switch subscriptions if you're going to disrespectfully treat your customers this way? Your attitude here has dictated what will happen to your company next.  It doesn't look promising.

Crypto Play Radio Discord https://discord.gg/7VPvgrm

[Rapturoso]

You say I've have had updates for the best part of 2 years. How is May 2017 2 years since my lifetime purchase? I think your maths is just a little bit skewed there.

Get my maths right? You get another year FREE on margin.

Are you the same person that posted this earlier today?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3082921.msg31821348#msg31821348

I purchased it long ago and have never once looked back.  

Oh, and this

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3082921.msg31816095#msg31816095

I have also used this trading terminal successfully since last year and I have never experienced any inadequacies.  The interface is amazing and simple enough to manage many exchanges and see at a glance where you are with any trade, current or historic. It is simply good at what it does and now very stable after plenty of improvements and optimisations.

Or did someone hack your account?

Yes, get your maths right.  I was referring to Leonardo which I have had for less than 10 months and now you say it's going to rebrand and no longer receive even the most basic API updates to keep it in line with Lifetime Access to 7 exchanges (and any API changes they make) that you advertised at the time of purchase.  I'm not interested in your rebranded product as this isn't what I purchased and I was not referring to anything related to it what so ever, so yes, get your maths right, 10 months of Leonardo Lifetime 7 exchange access, not 2 years!

I did purchase long ago and never look back.  I had faith that you would address the issues with Leonardo running on Windows and with large page support that I reported which prevented me from using it on my machines for MONTHS.  I attempted to use it in Linux but because that is not the OS I was using, nor interested in running Leonardo on, I waited for the fixes.  I could see that Leonardo was a promising product and stable on other operating systems, hence the praise for your product.  On this basis I posted in the other thread before seeing your diabolical bait and switch announcement.   I even went so far as declining your offer of a refund based on the difficulties I described to you personally in email about Windows and Leonardo crashing regularly after using 1GB of memory and also the large pages in memory issue where Leonardo would refuse to run at all.  I kept the product believing that I was safe in the thought that I would eventually be able to use your product on which I had lifetime access to 7 exchanges.

You say am I the same person?  Sure as hell I am!  Just because I praise your product before discovering the underhanded product rebrand as an excuse to milk your already paid lifetime customers, doesn't mean I don't have a valid observation that your bait and switch is disgusting.

Crypto Play Radio Discord https://discord.gg/7VPvgrm

[yhbae]

Jonathan, I currently own a license just for Bittrex. The idea was to test on Bittrex first then see what happens.

Now, I need Binance support as well quite badly. But I'm not quite sure what is the right direction right now since you are in the middle of switching the platform. Does it make sense to get a license for Leonardo on Binance right now or should I wait? My intention is to try out the new subscription model as well but I would need both Bittrex and Binance support.

Thank you.

If you want to switch to binance to try it out just contact us at support@marginsoftare.de

Basically, if after the free period of margin ends you think you will revert to leonArdo then it makes sense to purchase an add on exchange.

If you think you will stick with margin then you will get access to all exchanges once we switch.

Best wishes,
Jonathan

Jonathan, perhaps your e-mail server is down? I tried sending it but it bounced back.

[dbolivar]

Wow, Aggressive!  I guess the truth really does hurt!  Now I can see that you do not treat your customers with the professional courtesy that any reputable company should.

Who would want to do business with you and buy into your bait and switch subscriptions if you're going to disrespectfully treat your customers this way? Your attitude here has dictated what will happen to your company next.  It doesn't look promising.

"Your customers" => no, just you, because this is becoming trolling from your part. If you read this thread you'll see that they are nice, honest and fair with most of the customers. I don't have anything to gain personally by defending Margin, but I believe in fairness: if a business behaves badly, I always complain (but don't troll like yourself); however, if it has a record of good practices, I'll also stand to defend them. This subject of the business model change has been discussed to the exhaustion now.

What's tricky about trolling is that people feel compelled to reply, but it just serves its purpose. Maybe I also contributed with this reply, but thought it was important given the strong words you're using, and don't plan to continue replying anyway.

[ofnadave]

The current version works with OSX 10.11, but not 10.9.5.
Is there a working version for 10.9.5? What are minimum system requirements?

Bittrex worked fine with Mac OSX 10.10.5 . . . .  But, I have BOT crashes(stops) with Binance.  They still need to debug Leonardo 3.8.0.

[Rapturoso]

Wow, Aggressive!  I guess the truth really does hurt!  Now I can see that you do not treat your customers with the professional courtesy that any reputable company should.

Who would want to do business with you and buy into your bait and switch subscriptions if you're going to disrespectfully treat your customers this way? Your attitude here has dictated what will happen to your company next.  It doesn't look promising.

"Your customers" => no, just you, because this is becoming trolling from your part. If you read this thread you'll see that they are nice, honest and fair with most of the customers. I don't have anything to gain personally by defending Margin, but I believe in fairness: if a business behaves badly, I always complain (but don't troll like yourself); however, if it has a record of good practices, I'll also stand to defend them. This subject of the business model change has been discussed to the exhaustion now.

What's tricky about trolling is that people feel compelled to reply, but it just serves its purpose. Maybe I also contributed with this reply, but thought it was important given the strong words you're using, and don't plan to continue replying anyway.

That's ok.  Everyone is entitled to use their observational skills as they see fit.  This however doesn't change that fact that Margin have made a bad call for existing customers.

It's absolutely fine to change a business model to generate more income from future prospective customers but not:

at the detriment of existing paid up customers.

building a customer base on the promise that they can access 7 exchanges for a lifetime and then removing that purchase without any form of compensation that will put the customer in exactly the same position as they were before the bait and switch announcement.

refusing to maintain the current software and instead asking them to pay (even a reduced rate) for subscription for a product they have already purchased as a lifetime product that's been renamed to make it look like a new product.

making a product name redundant but then providing the exact same functionality with a product that just has a new name but is functionally identical to the product that is supposedly made redundant and has already been purchased in a lifetime package.

It's immoral an unethical no matter how you look at it.  One can't make something redundant if it still exists in it's same practical capacity with just a different name.  That's just daylight robbery.

I'm not trolling here. I'm just presenting the facts and it stands to reason that existing customers should get exactly what they paid for, lifetime access to 7 exchanges through Leonardo which dictates that Leonardo must be maintained to accommodate APIs on exchanges when they change, otherwise how can this be described as Leonardo access to 7 exchanges for life if that access is broken?  This is not a troll.  This is a serious question that still has not been answered to anyone's satisfaction. Jonathan seems to just stick his middle finger up to anyone who challenges him with a valid complaint about this terminology and his word play.  Will you do the same ?

Crypto Play Radio Discord https://discord.gg/7VPvgrm

[CTShaman]

I took this ongoing tirade as a personal affront. The moderator has been notified.

[Rapturoso]

I took this ongoing tirade as a personal affront. The moderator has been notified.

You're welcome to your own opinions, however I do not believe anything I have said is incorrect or untrue.  I stand by my observations.

Crypto Play Radio Discord https://discord.gg/7VPvgrm

[allyrbase]

"Your customers" => no, just you...

I beg to differ...

He's simply expressing his frustration which a few of us here also feel.
I've said my bit and moved on.

He isn't threatening to hurt or maim anyone... as a paying customer, he's entitled to his voice.

[Rapturoso]

"Your customers" => no, just you...

I beg to differ...

Oops.  EDIT!

Yes, Thanks for the support!  Another frustrated customer maybe ?

Advertising as an 'invite to treat' Leonardo Lifetime Access to 7 exchanges means exactly that, lifetime access to 7 exchanges through Leonardo, without compromise.

I would be interested to see where anyone can argue against this.

Crypto Play Radio Discord https://discord.gg/7VPvgrm

[DaZuru]

I can see frustration on both sides. Lifetime means what it says. We can talk semantics all day and never get anywhere. I can also see that having a viable business means the software will continue. I also don’t like heated exchanges, where someone is called a troll for voicing their opinions, and where someone says the company is unethical. There has to be a willingness to talk things through and come to a reasonable compromise of sorts. With any software purchase, there is a company that wants to do what they love and make money to keep doing it, and a customer that wants use out of it. If those two things benefit each other, everyone is happy. When the equation becomes imbalanced, there is friction and one side has to make a change. Software doesn’t do what the customer expected, refund or change the software. Business has to decide what they can do. Business can’t stay afloat with current software licensing model to stay in business. Have to change or go under, not good for anyone.

Extremes:
1.   Business changes licensing model, leaving current customers in the dust.
2.   Business marks all current customers as lifetime paid and changes model for new customers.

My guess is that option 2 is what most customers would want, unless they have other reasons motivating them such as fear of the business going under and losing access to software they love. Number one was probably the best bet to keep the business afloat at the risk of alienating customers.

Seems a compromise was put forth in between the extremes by providing a free period and by reducing fees to try to create a win for all. Some like it, some do not for whatever reasons. The choices are to continue to try to reach a consensus, or a higher percentage of agreement, or just see what survives the fallout of the current offer.

1.   In an effort to offer other options for discussion, which may be impossible, it there a way to turn over the API portion of the code for community updates, or charge for API updates.
2.   Maybe you get a percentage of trades like an exchange. I’d give you .1% of all trades. I give Bittrex .25% on each.
3.   Another thought would be to continue to support API changes for free, and entice people away from the old software with great new features with Margin. This would only work if there was an agreement on what current feature sets or performance criteria for Leonardo it should end with. I know there are challenges with this as have been mentioned.

I think entertaining a frank discussion with customers, without everyone getting bent out of shape, is beneficial for everyone. It may not change the current offer, but it could change opinions to be a little more positive and receptive to changes that must happen for us to continue our relationship. I think everyone wants this to succeed or we wouldn't be here.

[leonArdo@margin]

I can see frustration on both sides. Lifetime means what it says. We can talk semantics all day and never get anywhere. I can also see that having a viable business means the software will continue. I also don’t like heated exchanges, where someone is called a troll for voicing their opinions, and where someone says the company is unethical. There has to be a willingness to talk things through and come to a reasonable compromise of sorts. With any software purchase, there is a company that wants to do what they love and make money to keep doing it, and a customer that wants use out of it. If those two things benefit each other, everyone is happy. When the equation becomes imbalanced, there is friction and one side has to make a change. Software doesn’t do what the customer expected, refund or change the software. Business has to decide what they can do. Business can’t stay afloat with current software licensing model to stay in business. Have to change or go under, not good for anyone.

Extremes:
1.   Business changes licensing model, leaving current customers in the dust.
2.   Business marks all current customers as lifetime paid and changes model for new customers.

My guess is that option 2 is what most customers would want, unless they have other reasons motivating them such as fear of the business going under and losing access to software they love. Number one was probably the best bet to keep the business afloat at the risk of alienating customers.

Seems a compromise was put forth in between the extremes by providing a free period and by reducing fees to try to create a win for all. Some like it, some do not for whatever reasons. The choices are to continue to try to reach a consensus, or a higher percentage of agreement, or just see what survives the fallout of the current offer.

1.   In an effort to offer other options for discussion, which may be impossible, it there a way to turn over the API portion of the code for community updates, or charge for API updates.
2.   Maybe you get a percentage of trades like an exchange. I’d give you .1% of all trades. I give Bittrex .25% on each.
3.   Another thought would be to continue to support API changes for free, and entice people away from the old software with great new features with Margin. This would only work if there was an agreement on what current feature sets or performance criteria for Leonardo it should end with. I know there are challenges with this as have been mentioned.

I think entertaining a frank discussion with customers, without everyone getting bent out of shape, is beneficial for everyone. It may not change the current offer, but it could change opinions to be a little more positive and receptive to changes that must happen for us to continue our relationship. I think everyone wants this to succeed or we wouldn't be here.

Thanks for your contribution. I really appreciate it.

However, none of the final options you mentioned are possibly for us as our resources are quite limited and our efforts have to go into improving margin. Maintaining a second codebase is completely beyond our capacities and it is for this reason that we have to EOL leonArdo. There will be a final version and some limited updates in special cases with key additions, but that will be the extent of it.

Once again I really appreciate your opinion.

Best wishes,
Jonathan