Ok everyone, I had a longer conversation with wasserman99 and Iam not sure that I should release the coins just like this. The conversation with wasserman99 was so that I could not follow the plans he had in mind and why it would be needed to receive the coins so fast without being able to show something with the coins he already holds. On top more advertising even though the ICO was for collecting coins.
Well, in any case, I feel not like I should decide this on my own. The coins of the first part of the ICO are out of my reach so this is only about the second part of the ICO.
At the end I have to ask every investor to confirm his investment so that I can see that the coins flew to the escrow address. Every investor needs to decide if he wants to proceed the coins to wasserman99 or wanting a refund. Wasserman99 believes in the investors so that should be in his best interest.
In any case please send me the transaction ID and a proof that you sent the coin that were forwarded to the escrow address afterwards. The rules stated that you need to send the investment including your account id as satoshies or giving me a signature to see that you controlled the sending address. Screenshots of exchanges sending addresses are no safe proof so any such claims without proper proof have to wait so I can see if there is no real investor with proof for these coins. Tell me if you want it to be forwarded and I will do.
No, refunding is not in my interest because it takes alot of time to do so and I could get an easy big amount of escrow tip. Wasserman99 wanted to give me 5% of the escrowed amount, now it was the invested amount, which would be a pretty high amount of value for an ico. Though that's not the cautiousness an escrow should show. If you want a refund then maybe think about a tip and let me know.
In any case here is the conversation I had with wasserman99 so every investor can see what we spoke about.
Hi,
How are you?
We are near the end of our ICO. We must reach an agreement on the release of funds. What do you think about this?:
1) Finish the ICO.
2) In a few days we release the basic wallet (to make the inital distribution).
3) As we raised much less than a half of our goal we need the 100% of the funds asap to work. You could send us 50% 7 days after we release the wallet as you set in your rules.
4) But we need the other 50% too, with that amount we are going to pay the signature campaign-bounties-marketing campaign-legal fees. Maybe you send us another 25% after we pay the signature campaign and the other 25% when we release our first beta (with this amount, will take one month or two).
Let me know what you think and feel free to make suggestions. We keep this information private until we reach an agreement.
Regards
PS: Read this please:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1587226.msg15969215#msg15969215 and this
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1570330.msg16034913#msg16034913. I am pretty sure that this users, when we release the wallet, they will do everything possible so that you do not you release the first part of the funds.
This will not work at all this way. It is not imagineable how this amount of money need to be burned in a couple of days. The wallet is the minimum to release of course and the 60 bitcoin that are already in devs ownership can go a long way with developing something worthy to show so that the investors that are in doubt can see something that proves that things move in the right direction.
Besides that... I think I have 75 bitcoin in escrow. Which means 43k USD. How the heck do you plan on burning 25% on a signature campaign? And what campaign legal fees can be that high? And even more, why is advertising needed now? You have investments, next step would be to provide results.
Sorry but that explaination is not convincing at all at the moment. It sounds like burning money.
Greetings!
Sebastian
SebastianJu,
It seems ok but then what's the plan? We believe the plan we offered you is correct because we have little funds. We need to know how much money we have and when we will have it. It is not the same, for us, to work thinking that in a week you will release part of the funds, to not knowing when you're going to release the funds.
We only have 69 btc and we need to pay 7-8 as bounties, 10 bitcoins for the marketing campaing during the ICO (we are going to need a few more to do marketing post-ico), hire people and we are going to have legal fee because we want structure us to show more transparency. Take a look:
"Frank, our founder, proposed to create a gGmbH -it is similar to a tax-exempt LLC but in Germany- to manage the funds gathered at the ICO, which we think it will be a wise move and it will offer more transparency to our project and the security for to the XPO holders to know that we will not act irrationally or for our own profit. Therefore after discussing this matter and given that Frank lives in Germany we decided that the idea of creating a gGmbH or another type of organization will bring reassurance and confidence to our investors. "
As I said, we raise less than 200 btc, that its a lot less than 700 btc (our goal), so we must manage the funds in the best way possible and for that we should know how the funds will be released.
We trust you for the work, but we need to know the rules clear.
Let me know what you have in mind.
Regards
Hi,
A few more things:
1) "to show so that the investors that are in doubt" ?? these are not investor. As far, I know only two investors ask for a refund (the amount invested between them is 1 btc).
2) "And even more, why is advertising needed now?" I think it is our task to decide how to handle our project, not yours. We are going to manage the funds in the best way possible as we said in the last message.
3) Please, we need to make an agreement about this as soon as possible. At the moment, we will prepare the wallet to launch in the coming days (and made the initial distribution) but we can not do anything else until we know what is the plan.
Regards
Well... as far as I know nothing was shown yet. So you ask me to make a word about me releasing coins in escrow before you showed something? In any case I would need to see what the community says upfront since I'm in doubt the reasons you claimed about the needed coins and their amount make much sense.
Let me know if I miss something.
Hi,
"as far as I know nothing was shown yet." No, we ask you the first part after we release the qt wallet and after we make the initial distribution. I would offer two plans, let me know what you think:
A)
1) Finish the ICO.
2) In a few days we release the basic wallet (and make the inital distribution).
3) You could send us 50% 7 days after we release the wallet as you set in your rules. You said that:
I release the needed part + cushion and you code on it until you need the remaining part.
4) Give us 10 % (8-9 btc) extra after we pay the signatures.
5) Release the final amount (40%) after the beta.
I think that this is our best offer.
B) Another option if your fear is what might happen after (because as far i can see you dont trust in us) we could change the rules of escrow. I not think it's the best and do not want to but it would be a possibility, because we have to reach an agreement. So you can do this:
1) You give the possibility to any investor (of the second phase) that verify their investment and after that you make a refund, if they want.
2) You release 100% of the funds within 7 days of the wallet.
To start to make the distribution we need to reach an agreement before,
Please let me know,
Regards
PS: Please, I ask you to get aware and read all our thread and not just what those users say against us, who are a minority. As I said, there are not investors in that minority (less than 1 btc) and all the fud is managed by (...snip...) & the army of newbies account created the same day (august 8-9) by the same person.
Please come with clear descriptions about what you will develop with the coins you hold and the coins you want from me. It might sound like it is not my thing what you do with the coins but it is since I was trusted by the investors to not carelessly give their investment away.
Plan B means a too short timeframe to make every investor aware of the refund possibility. Though of course, since it is every investors choice, if one of these chose to decide that I should forward the coins then those coins can be forwarded instantly.
Hi,
The expenses are for:
1) Salaries. We are a team of three but we want to add one-two more.
2) Marketing pre -ico
3) Signature
4) Marketing pro -ico
5) Legal fee. Organize a structure.
Before spending more funds we need to have confirmation of our agreement. It is not the same organize a work plan, considering that we have 70 btc or 150 btc. Even we can not make the disitribución, we do not know if we have the funds of the second phase or not. In case we do not reach an agreement, we will cancel the second phase investments and you must return those funds.
As you can understand, this agreement delayed the launch of our project. Therefore, we need to reach agreement as soon as possible. I think the plan b I offered you is the best under the circumstances. You say that time is very short, but we can set a period of 10-15 days (or more). We are confident that the majority of the investors trust in us.
Regards
PS: Please, we can talk on skype or Slack? To speak more fluid. Or at least answer me quickly. If you only send me two message per day, it will take more than a week to reach an agreement.
Well you know... 4 of the 5 points are for marketing something. Which does not exist yet and there is nothing to see that it will be created. It sounds like a project to earn money rather than creating something valueable.
At the end the best plan would be to make a PROPER plan about how many of the coins you want to spend on what thing, when you will release something so that a result can be seend and then present this plan to the community. Then investors can decide where to move the coins.
I will be honest, personally I would not invest if you would present me some plan like this you described me now.
Besides that. It is not imaginable that you would need more than 60 coins and that you can NOT show a result with this amount of coins. That you need to promote alot more for something that does not actually exist.
Hi,
Obviously we can work with bitcoins we have, but it is not the same as putting together a plan considering we have 60 bitcoins and within a week we get another 40, to consider that we have only 60 bitcoins and the remaining amount you will give us in a very distant future (or never), so we prefer before the start have an agreement with all the rules clear to know when you will release the funds. Example: we cant hire more people or consult with a legal firm with only 60 btc.
I think the plan b I offered you is the best under the circumstances. You say that time is very short, but we can set a period of 10-15 days (or more). We are confident that the majority of the investors will trust in us.
Why not this? We leave the decision in the hands of investors.
Since none of our proposals is of your interest, I ask that you be who elaborate the plan to releasing the funds.
Regards
PS: Again. Could you come to our slack or skype? To speak more fluently.
" 4 of the 5 points are for marketing something"
not..only 3 of 5 (salaries and legal fee are not involved in marketing)..but these three only involve less than 20 bitcoins.
As far as I remember you mentioned in one of the first pm's that the legal fee is regarding the marketing. Besides that... legal consultation AFTER you collected all the coins?
So you say you need to burn 60 bitcoins in a week and you can not show something after that time? The time is very short and the amount of value very high. Would you personally agree to this?
We are not going to burn nothing. I just said that we need to know with how much funds we could count before to make a plan and start working.
I give to you a several possibilities but none of them will interested to you. So I ask that you make a plan. Again i think this is the best plan, so everyone could ask for refund:
B) Another option if your fear is what might happen after (because as far i can see you dont trust in us) we could change the rules of escrow. I not think it's the best and do not want to but it would be a possibility, because we have to reach an agreement. So you can do this:
1) You give the possibility to any investor (of the second phase) that verify their investment and after that you make a refund, if they want.
2) You release 100% of the funds within 7 days of the wallet.
I think the plan b I offered you is the best under the circumstances. You say that time is very short, but we can set a period of 10-15 days (or more). We are confident that the majority of the investors will trust in us.
I feel like you're taking advantage of the situation, it's a shame.
Regards
PS: again, why you dont want talk on skype or slack?
How can I take advantage from this? I hate it when I have to refund an ico occasionally because it is a lot of work and not rewarding. Especially when I could take an easy 4.2 bitcoin when I would release to you.
It sounds like you are at the end of your arguments now and I'm still not convinced. I will have to ask the community. Everyone wanting to send to you will let me know and I will send to you. The remaining coins... everyone not wanting to send is refunded... speed depends on the proof they can give and unclaimed funds will have to wait.
I would make a post then regarding this. If you trust in your investors the way you say then there should be no problem besides a waiting time.
Hi,
"It sounds like you are at the end of your arguments now" No, we offer several alternatives and none was to your liking. I dont know what more say. We need 50% of the funds 7 days after we release the wallet...Why do you think that's wrong?
How much do you consider proper release after seven days of the wallet? Maybe you can release some % (tell you how much its correct) and only the extra 7 btc to pay the signatures. All the remaining btc will release after our beta.
Let me know.
About your alternative:
Instead of making your post in the forum, it is the best that make in our Slack. In the slack are only our investors, however, in the forum there are investors and detractors.
I think the proposal should be the reverse of what you offer but as you have your coins, you have the power. That's why I said you take advantage of the situation. You do not listen us.
It makes no sense to do it the way you say. If you put it like that, you know no one will risk in sending the funds, the best/the most logical is that you offer a refund period and you know that.
We trust in you and accept that you release the funds in parts (to add extra security) from beginning but none of our alternatives satisfy you.
Regards
PS: About your salary, its the 5% of the funds raised and we raised 150 btc.
Hi,
Even, if you want, you can send the 7,35 btc (signature campaign) directly to Lutpin (manager), but please, we must reach an agreement as soon as possible. Our community is waiting.
If you want to know the opinions of our investors, I invite you to come to our Slack, so you can talk to them.
I understand that you are a busy person, but if you took the responsibility of be the escrow (and, even, you dont agree with our plan to release the funds) I ask you to have a more fluid conversation, so we can understand each other more quickly.
Until now, you only send 1-2 messages per day, its unfair.
Regards
I can't tell who is in the slack and the ico thread is on bitcointalk. So the best way to reach the investors is by making a post there. At the end you are right that it will be in the best interest of everyone to make this fast. Though releasing too fast is not an option. Because I can't trust your word that all negative voices are only small investors and detractors.
Ok SebasitanJu.
"At the end you are right that it will be in the best interest of everyone to make this fast. Though releasing too fast is not an option." You're right, we feel exactly the same.
So, there are two options to make the process:
1) Everyone wanting to send to you will let me know and I will send to you. The remaining coins... everyone not wanting to send is refunded... speed depends on the proof they can give and unclaimed funds will have to wait. // As we said before, this is totally unfair and by the way, will be a lot of investments unverifiable or unclaimed. What would you do with them?
2) You give the possibility to any investor (of the second phase) that verify their investment (during 10-15 days or more) and after that you make a refund, if they want. You release 100% of the funds within 7 days of the wallet. // With this option, all wishing to leave the project may do so.
I think the option 2 is the most fair. If you decide for the option 1 you are killing the project because with only 70 btc minus 7-8 btc from signature campaign, legal fees and marketing expenses is very low amount to do something.
Tell me how to proceed. We will do what you say then. My vote is for the option 2, tell me what you think.
Regards
PS:"Because I can't trust your word that all negative voices are only small investors and detractors." Please research by yourself...the only investor who complaint us are from the first phase (kellendil - basement), the others are not investor. In the slack there are a lot of investor who want see the coin be a succeed (only takes a few minutes).
I know Lutpin and he is a great guy though I have a responsibility against the investors. Those who believe in the project and those that are in fear now.
Slack won't bring much since you already told me everything you could. And surely you would agree that at this state it would not be possible to release the coins in full by overriding the individual will of the investors. If they believe in the project then you would have nothing to fear don't you think?
Again... you have nothing to show and you want to run a signature campaign. Why?
So you are sure that all real investors are fine with me releasing the coins. Then there is no reason at all to fear anything, don't you think?
