|
tarmo888
|
 |
April 21, 2019, 11:24:05 PM |
|
Obyte version 2.7.0 released, some highlights:
Added ability to create and sign classic (prosaic, not smart) contracts.
It sounds cool but it's not enforceable not only on DAG but in reality too. There's no law that recognizes "real ID verification" on Obyte and digital cryptographic signatures as equivalent to handwritten signature on paper. As long as the law does not change this feature is just a toy with no real world application. Funny thing: how can anyone be sure that anything signed on Obyte platform (including signatures from real world verified IDs) have been performed by the person that owns the ID? It may well be my girlfriend that took to my laptop when I was in a bathroom and forgot to lock the screen with Obyte wallet left open (password is still optional in Obyte wallet, right? Ooops.) That's the problem with digital signatures. Handwritten signature is oldschool but at least nobody can do it for me. Otherwise it would have already been implemented in different ways in many industries. But it didn't. Human notaries are fine and will be for a very long time. Or how about dead people? Who will terminate their verified ID's on Obyte when they die? Nobody? So anyone who has password and a wallet of a dead person can still sign anything as if that person is still alive? How about lost/stolen/hacked wallets? How anybody can terminate their own verified ID on Obyte when somebody looses password/wallet/ or is hacked etc.? Will Obyte have some kind of customer service 24/7 hotline to terminate compromised IDs? When you wrote this post, did it cross your mind that maybe you don't know what you are talking about? Are you a lawyer and if you are, in what country? In your reality, how do you think the laws work? Do you think that there needs to be a law for every single application and every law will tell that signatures from list of apps are now recognized? And what kind of backward country do you live where only handwritten signatures on paper are legally binding? Most of the world accepts digital signatures already for over 10 years. In US, it's called ESIGN Act and even Obyte announcement says that prosaic contracts satisfy all 4 requirements of “advanced electronic signature” under Article 26 of eIDAS in EU. There is no special law needed specially for Obyte. Just ask your lawyer, what are the limitations and under which conditions digital signatures can be used in your country. Here is another funny thing: have you ever heard of identity theft and forgery? Sure, nobody is going to sue you when you scam somebody for only $50, but do it long enough so the total amount reaches into thousands and law enforcement will start to have interest in you. Handwritten signatures are easier to forge than digital ones. Apparently, you haven't even used DocuSign, which is been used in many industries. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The Bitcoin software, network, and concept is called "Bitcoin" with a capitalized "B". Bitcoin currency units are called "bitcoins" with a lowercase "b" -- this is often abbreviated BTC.
|
|
|
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
StandingTall
Jr. Member
 Offline
Activity: 81
Merit: 8
|
|
April 22, 2019, 06:12:18 AM |
|
This works until it doesn't. And then not so funny things happen: See? The judge apparently is so ignorant as me. Or is this e-signing not so sure as you might think. With Obyte wallet where the password is not mandatory it's just laughable. If you read the article carefully you will find that in EU for e-signature to be valid and not dismissed by court: "users must be positively identified and certified as being the individual they claim to be before they can issue an e-signature above the simple electronic signature level." There's no certification process of validity in Obyte so claiming that: "even Obyte announcement says that prosaic contracts satisfy all 4 requirements of “advanced electronic signature” under Article 26 of eIDAS in EU" is equally laughable. |
Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks
|
|
|
tuvok007
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1001
|
|
April 22, 2019, 06:57:37 AM |
|
Why did you change your name? Byteball sounds a lot cooler than OByte. I remember that there was an airdrop for first users of byteball wallet or free distribution,have to check my old pc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
bobq
|
|
April 22, 2019, 10:02:52 AM |
|
This should be the News Of The Day in the whole crypto-space, IMHO - but alas it seems that most of the people prefer to invest their attention in trivial issues of all kind instead. Prosaic contracts seem to me like an invaluable milestone for the upcoming mainstream adoption of crypto. Now we'd only need some real-world court starting to accept the undisputable evidence provided by Obyte's prosaic contracts. But I guess it will take a while before we'll be able to explain to courts how they could better do their jobs.  As for the argument which has been made about the problem of determining who has actually pressed the contract button, this is a momentary problem to which there are surely plenty of solutions. For example authenticating the person through the phone capability to read fingerprints. |
|
|
|
|
tarmo888
|
|
April 22, 2019, 11:16:13 AM
Last edit: April 22, 2019, 11:31:25 AM by tarmo888 |
|
This works until it doesn't. And then not so funny things happen: See? The judge apparently is so ignorant as me. Or is this e-signing not so sure as you might think. With Obyte wallet where the password is not mandatory it's just laughable. you have If you read the article carefully you will find that in EU for e-signature to be valid and not dismissed by court: "users must be positively identified and certified as being the individual they claim to be before they can issue an e-signature above the simple electronic signature level." There's no certification process of validity in Obyte so claiming that: "even Obyte announcement says that prosaic contracts satisfy all 4 requirements of “advanced electronic signature” under Article 26 of eIDAS in EU" is equally laughable. The funny part is that I had to mention DocuSign, so you would be able to google something negative about it and now you are talking why DocuSign never works. Apparently you have never used it, so you are totally ignoring that it is enough in some countries. I mentioned DocuSign just to counter your false claim that only handwritten signatures count, obviously signatures and authentication are more advanced on Obyte than just clicking a button. And there are many other digital signatures in Europe that are legally binding, it just shows that you are stuck in 90s. Real name attested users on Obyte are already identified before they sign any contracts, that's what the Real Name Attestation bot does. If you don't want that you wallet gets stolen, you lock your phone/laptop with password. Password on an app is just optional extra protection, which anybody can use too to protect their identity even more. |
|
|
|
|
StandingTall
Jr. Member
Offline
Activity: 81
Merit: 8
|
|
April 22, 2019, 11:50:35 AM
Last edit: April 22, 2019, 12:19:59 PM by StandingTall |
|
Identification is not certification. You don't know what you are talking about, not me. My advise is for the Obyte development team to take legal consulting before spending months if not years on developing features that are supposed to work within the real world and legal system. And that's what this whole dead-end real ID Obyte feature is now. Waste of time and effort and the end result is devoid of any applicable significance.
The Obyte development is turned on its head. You develop features without anybody being interested in using it. You've got so many features already that nobody is using and you keep developing new ones which nobody will use.
The right way to do it:
1. Find a real world problem that you can solve with Obyte platform.
2. Find a real world company/platform/or anybody interested in implementing your solution to the real problem.
3. Take legal consulting if this will actually work.
4. Sign an agreement with the interested party.
5. Develop the feature.
6. Implement the feature.
|
Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks
|
|
|
|
tarmo888
|
|
April 22, 2019, 12:38:09 PM |
|
Identification is not certification. You don't know what you are talking about, not me. My advise is for the Obyte development team to take legal consulting before spending months if not years on developing features that are supposed to work within the real world and legal system. And that's what this whole dead-end real ID Obyte feature is now. Waste of time and effort and the end result is devoid of any applicable significance.
The Obyte development is turned on its head. You develop features without anybody being interested in using it. You've got so many features already that nobody is using and you keep developing new ones which nobody will use.
The right way to do it:
1. Find a real world problem that you can solve with Obyte platform.
2. Find a real world company/platform/or anybody interested in implementing your solution to the real problem.
3. Take legal consulting if this will actually work.
4. Sign an agreement with the interested party.
5. Develop the feature.
6. Implement the feature.
Real name attestation does the identification with real documents from different governments using Jumio. Even more secure authentication is available for Baltic countries with ID-card/Mobile-ID/Smart-ID. What country are you talking about, which needs a separate certification for every app that does digital signatures? Are you talking about signing government documents and excluding other more basic agreements that happen P2P or you are talking again handwritten signatures that can be done on touch screens? Also, in order to get certified, you need something that can be certified, version 2.7.0 is the first version of Obyte app that could be applied for certification in that country. Did you consult YOUR lawyers and they said that it won't work in YOUR country? Or there should be some other reason why somebody should take "your advise" seriously? At the moment, you are just some rando with opinion on internet forum. What makes you think it's a random feature and not actually what somebody (actual person/company, not somebody on internet forum) was asking for? |
|
|
|
|
StandingTall
Jr. Member
Offline
Activity: 81
Merit: 8
|
|
April 22, 2019, 03:01:25 PM |
|
I'm referring to the EU eIDAS regulations: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2014.257.01.0073.01.ENGArticle 25
2) A qualified electronic signature shall have the equivalent legal effect of a handwritten signature.
Article 3
(12) ‘qualified electronic signature’ means an advanced electronic signature that is created by a qualified electronic
signature creation device, and which is based on a qualified certificate for electronic signatures;
(15) ‘qualified certificate for electronic signature’ means a certificate for electronic signatures, that is issued by a qualified trust service provider and meets the requirements laid down in Annex I;
Article 22
Trusted lists
1. Each Member State shall establish, maintain and publish trusted lists, including information related to the qualified trust service providers for which it is responsible, together with information related to the qualified trust services provided by them.
All in all: 1. Only a qualified electronic signature has the same legal effect in EU as a handwritten signature. 2. Qualified electronic signature requires a qualified certificate issued by a qualified trust service provider which has to be put on the list by the EU Member State. None of this is the case with Obyte which means that it's signatures are not legally binding. |
Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks
|
|
|
|
tarmo888
|
|
April 22, 2019, 03:28:26 PM
Last edit: April 22, 2019, 03:58:37 PM by tarmo888 |
|
I'm referring to the EU eIDAS regulations: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv:OJ.L_.2014.257.01.0073.01.ENGArticle 25
2) A qualified electronic signature shall have the equivalent legal effect of a handwritten signature.
Article 3
(12) ‘qualified electronic signature’ means an advanced electronic signature that is created by a qualified electronic
signature creation device, and which is based on a qualified certificate for electronic signatures;
(15) ‘qualified certificate for electronic signature’ means a certificate for electronic signatures, that is issued by a qualified trust service provider and meets the requirements laid down in Annex I;
Article 22
Trusted lists
1. Each Member State shall establish, maintain and publish trusted lists, including information related to the qualified trust service providers for which it is responsible, together with information related to the qualified trust services provided by them.
All in all: 1. Only a qualified electronic signature has the same legal effect in EU as a handwritten signature. 2. Qualified electronic signature requires a qualified certificate issued by a qualified trust service provider which has to be put on the list by the EU Member State. None of this is the case with Obyte which means that it's signatures are not legally binding. Great job looking all that up, but you forgot to add "... are not equal to handwritten signatures in EU yet". What you copy-pasted is about getting equal as handwritten signature (the highest level), there are more levels than just that. For example, in order for Smart-ID to become QSCD (Qualified Signature Creation Device) in November 2018, they had that app out in public already in 2016. In order to get a Smart-ID, you need to sign a contract with ID-card or Mobile-ID, which had Level 1 – QES (Qualified Electronic Signature) already way earlier. https://www.smart-id.com/help/faq/general/can-use-smart-id-sign-documents-electronicallyhttps://www.id.ee/?lang=en&id=38499Today, you can use ID-card/Mobile-ID/Smart-ID to have digital identity and sign prosaic contracts on Obyte, so getting it to QES level (highest level, which is equal to handwritten signature) is just another step, which you can't skip to by just waving with a white paper. Maybe you still haven't noticed, but each of these features complement each other - prosaic contracts would not have been possible without real name attestation, signatures that are equal to handwritten signatures would not become possible without prior two. And many countries, you still don't need prosaic contract signatures to be at highest level to be legally binding. What I can already see is that with little bit of research, I think you don't believe anymore that handwritten signatures are the only way to go. |
|
|
|
|
scambust
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1007
|
|
April 22, 2019, 04:29:13 PM |
|
what relation has Bitcoin SV to Obyte Cash? There are examples of successful and unsuccessful forks on the market. There are examples of successful forks and dead originals. If not to assume that almost all coins to some extent fork of Bitcoin. It's all about tribalism. OGs are resentful to those that forked away. So basically everyone assumes that the larger tribe wins. In the case of Ethereum and Classic, the community of Ethereum is bigger. With Bitcoin, the bigger one is with the segwit update. It's a popularity contest, if you will. smells like evolution to me. survival of the fittest and most popular. if in doubt go alpha. i think for any cryptocurrency to gain some traction it needs followers, users, devs, usecases etc. to make sense in the cryptoworld. forks and knives can't be avoided. but st. toshi had this in mind when releasing the code "open source". the only true coin is bitcoin True. But to the misguided fanboys of Obyte, Obyte Cash is not a threat. The best DAG devs are here. Other devs are working on applying second layer services on top of the Obyte network. "Imitation is the greatest form of flattery." |
|
|
|
|
tarmo888
|
|
April 22, 2019, 05:10:07 PM |
|
what relation has Bitcoin SV to Obyte Cash? There are examples of successful and unsuccessful forks on the market. There are examples of successful forks and dead originals. If not to assume that almost all coins to some extent fork of Bitcoin. It's all about tribalism. OGs are resentful to those that forked away. So basically everyone assumes that the larger tribe wins. In the case of Ethereum and Classic, the community of Ethereum is bigger. With Bitcoin, the bigger one is with the segwit update. It's a popularity contest, if you will. smells like evolution to me. survival of the fittest and most popular. if in doubt go alpha. i think for any cryptocurrency to gain some traction it needs followers, users, devs, usecases etc. to make sense in the cryptoworld. forks and knives can't be avoided. but st. toshi had this in mind when releasing the code "open source". the only true coin is bitcoin True. But to the misguided fanboys of Obyte, Obyte Cash is not a threat. The best DAG devs are here. Other devs are working on applying second layer services on top of the Obyte network. "Imitation is the greatest form of flattery." Many don't take forks as threat because most times they are not actually a threats. I don't see that Bitcoin would have ever gone mainstream alone, there are just too many use cases that one coin can't solve. Some people are just very tribal and think there can only be one. But most often, forks are just moneygrabs and when they use the same name as original coin then they can harm the original brand. If somebody imports their Obyte seed words to a fork wallet and their Obyte wallet gets emptied then the first one who gets the blame is not the fork, but original Obyte instead because that's the wallet that got emptied. I think Obyte has replay-protection built-in by default if the fork is implemented properly, but we have to see. |
|
|
|
|
diyhockey
Jr. Member
Offline
Activity: 79
Merit: 2
|
|
April 22, 2019, 06:34:59 PM |
|
I think Obyte has replay-protection built-in by default if the fork is implemented properly, but we have to see.
obc is fork of code, not fork of chain. There will not be this issue. It's a separate coin with own genesis |
|
|
|
|
|
tarmo888
|
|
April 22, 2019, 07:10:48 PM |
|
I think Obyte has replay-protection built-in by default if the fork is implemented properly, but we have to see.
obc is fork of code, not fork of chain. There will not be this issue. It's a separate coin with own genesis How do you know? Haven't seen any code and if it's not a fork of chain, how do they airdrop the coins if it doesn't have the same UTXOs? Is there going to be some bot on Obyte, where I can sign some message like it was with Bitcoin airdrop? Many loose things yet unknown. |
|
|
|
|
diyhockey
Jr. Member
Offline
Activity: 79
Merit: 2
|
|
April 22, 2019, 07:34:29 PM |
|
I think Obyte has replay-protection built-in by default if the fork is implemented properly, but we have to see.
obc is fork of code, not fork of chain. There will not be this issue. It's a separate coin with own genesis How do you know? Haven't seen any code and if it's not a fork of chain, how do they airdrop the coins if it doesn't have the same UTXOs? Is there going to be some bot on Obyte, where I can sign some message like it was with Bitcoin airdrop? Many loose things yet unknown. i don't know sorry. I think so. Because some addresses will be removed in obc and some funds will change the owners. I think it will be like bitcoin airdrop yes. Obc bot and obyte snapshot imo i see what you say |
|
|
|
|
bspus
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2165
Merit: 1002
|
|
April 24, 2019, 07:51:30 PM |
|
I think Obyte has replay-protection built-in by default if the fork is implemented properly, but we have to see.
obc is fork of code, not fork of chain. There will not be this issue. It's a separate coin with own genesis How do you know? Haven't seen any code and if it's not a fork of chain, how do they airdrop the coins if it doesn't have the same UTXOs? Is there going to be some bot on Obyte, where I can sign some message like it was with Bitcoin airdrop? Many loose things yet unknown. He probably figured it from their own description in their post. I think it makes sense. It's not a blockchain, it's a DAG and I'm not sure if they can even "fork" the way a blockchain would. As to how they would airdrop, I suppose they can make a list of all addresses and balances on a specific date and then use a script to create transactions of equivalent amounts to the same addresses in their new DAG |
|
|
|
|
tarmo888
|
|
April 25, 2019, 12:07:40 AM |
|
I think Obyte has replay-protection built-in by default if the fork is implemented properly, but we have to see.
obc is fork of code, not fork of chain. There will not be this issue. It's a separate coin with own genesis How do you know? Haven't seen any code and if it's not a fork of chain, how do they airdrop the coins if it doesn't have the same UTXOs? Is there going to be some bot on Obyte, where I can sign some message like it was with Bitcoin airdrop? Many loose things yet unknown. He probably figured it from their own description in their post. I think it makes sense. It's not a blockchain, it's a DAG and I'm not sure if they can even "fork" the way a blockchain would. As to how they would airdrop, I suppose they can make a list of all addresses and balances on a specific date and then use a script to create transactions of equivalent amounts to the same addresses in their new DAG You just describe what a UTXO snapshot is (even than Obyte is a DAG, it still uses many of same logic as Bitcoin, including UTXOs), but that doesn't still explain how you get access to those tokens on another fork. Using the same seed words seems like the easiest way, but also the most riskiest for the users. Safest would be a claiming bot or website, but that means that only those who claim will get the new tokens. |
|
|
|
|
diyhockey
Jr. Member
Offline
Activity: 79
Merit: 2
|
|
April 25, 2019, 11:01:16 AM |
|
we can easily see that what happened with Obyte is almost the same what happened with Ethereum bull run - eth #2 , gbyte #40. Eth millions dollars of liquidity. Obyte millions dollars of liquidity. bear market - eth #2, gbyte #140. Eth millions dollars of liquidity. Obyte few thousands dollars of liquidity, sometimes just few hundreds. yep almost the same bro |
|
|
|
|
|
ePesoInitiative
|
|
April 25, 2019, 11:33:36 AM |
|
What I actually want you to concentrate on is the same pattern of price charts between Ethereum, Dash, Litecoin, and OByte, it means the Obyte coin might witness same journey as three other coins went. Currently Obyte has stood at $45 (a bit higher than $45), that is very cheap. https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/obyte/You are lucky to figure that out because some are still clueless. All cryptocurrency markets move the same way - they are lumped into one class by investors and traders. So when the dominant coin succeeds, almost every coin does too. |
|
|
|
|
tarmo888
|
|
April 25, 2019, 12:06:21 PM |
|
we can easily see that what happened with Obyte is almost the same what happened with Ethereum bull run - eth #2 , gbyte #40. Eth millions dollars of liquidity. Obyte millions dollars of liquidity. bear market - eth #2, gbyte #140. Eth millions dollars of liquidity. Obyte few thousands dollars of liquidity, sometimes just few hundreds. yep almost the same bro Sure, compare CMC rank like it actually means anything. If you lose 10x the marketcap, it doesn't matter if you are still #2 or not, you still lost 10x the marketcap, 100 new coins enters into TOP50 (over 1000 news coins have made in last 2 years) and you get pushed to 150 and suddenly you are shitcoin, makes sense. Obviously Obyte got hit harder because it's not as known as Ethereum, but maybe that partly fault of people like you who keep repeating how bad everything is. Liquidity of thousand and sometimes even hundreds? Do you mean that time few weeks ago when volume reached 360k or October when it reached 560k, I can't find any day when volumes were sub-thousands https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/obyte/historical-data/?start=20180425&end=20190425If you think liquidity is bad, go provide that liquidity. Oh no, you only have 0.1BTC, so you can't. Why fuzz about the liquidity if you personally don't even need it. |
|
|
|
|
bspus
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 2165
Merit: 1002
|
|
April 25, 2019, 12:44:11 PM |
|
You just describe what a UTXO snapshot is (even than Obyte is a DAG, it still uses many of same logic as Bitcoin, including UTXOs), but that doesn't still explain how you get access to those tokens on another fork. Using the same seed words seems like the easiest way, but also the most riskiest for the users. Safest would be a claiming bot or website, but that means that only those who claim will get the new tokens.
What is the risk? If you are worried they (or someone else) will release a corrupt wallet that steals your keys and original bytes, just move those to a different seed before importing the old seed into obytecash. It's the same deal with every other fork out there. |
|
|
|
|
