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Author Topic: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated  (Read 661058 times)
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ANiceJewishBoy
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November 10, 2013, 04:32:02 AM
 #1961

If you want Devcoin to go up in value, tell EVERYONE about devcoin. Bitcoins value is based on awareness, the more people want it the more it is worth. And the more new people learn about it, the more new people want it. Devcoin is the SAME.

We can just tell people that Devcoin has reached record lows and it's time to buy.  The hype will be a self-fulfilling prophecy!

I think it's better to tell people to come write. Or invite them to get DVC wallets to create tip jars.

The more people there are doing the work you enjoy to earn coins, the more you will want to learn about them right?

My Negative Rating is For Bringing a Dead Thread Back to Life, Just BTW. Click The Link To See For Yourself.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=155011
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November 10, 2013, 04:51:58 AM
 #1962

This is a great post, and I totally agree about being willing to hold out for a higher sell price.  I'm also playing around with trying to buy low and sell off a few points higher, although I think this is a tough time to get into that because the price of Bitcoin is running away so much, so I've kind of backed off of that even for the time being.  I'll try that again once the price of Bitcoin stabilizes a bit and alt coins start to move more.

I was noticing too that considering the fact that Bitcoin has about tripled in price over the past three weeks, Devcoin is actually holding out fairly well.  Yes, its value has fallen, but not proportionally to how much Bitcoin has gone up.  In fact, Devcoin has been sitting right around 19-20 sat the entire time that Bitcoins have gone from just under $300 to just under $400.  Now I notice bitcoin is back at $300 and falling and Devcoin price hasn't gone up either.  I'm not sure what all that means, but I have noticed a lot of alt coins have taken a hit, but I was expecting Devcoin to take an even bigger hit than it did.

I had never considered the whole issue where the amount of Devcoins doubles between year 1 and year 2 but only increases by a third between year 2 and year 3 and less thereafter.  So that would mean that we are currently experiencing the greatest price drops due to inflation that will ever happen, and this part should balance out as the coin "matures."

And I have a greater appreciation for those Devtome writers who have been at it for a long time and are holding onto their Devcoins (and not dumping them).  Although I do sell some of mine I do not sell anywhere near all of them (I don't have any desire to kill the price by selling down the buy wall either) and mine are starting to pile up as well.

My position has tended to be that the merged mined coins are ultimately a good bet simply because it is so trivially easy for miners to support them.

Most of the altcoins all have to divide up among them the hashing power that is available in the world, but the merged mined coins such as DeVCoin can all share the same massive bunch of hashing power so hopefully will long term be the most secure.

The thing about coins that never stop or even decrease the number of coins minted per block, such as DeVCoin and GRouPcoin and, I think, also CoiLedCoin and GeistGeld, is that in their second year the number of coins minted is 100% of what had previously existed, in their third year the number minted is 50% of what previously existed, in their fourth year the number minted is 33.33333333% of what previously existed and so on, that is to say it takes years for the new coins coming into existence in a given year to become a small fraction of the number already existing. Billions of DeVCoins already exist, but billions more are still being made. So it seems reasonable that it should take years from the time such coins are launched until their rate of inflation is low so we should expect that the first bunch of years people will dismiss them as printing way too many coins per year.

Take some comfort in the fact that at least some people who hold billions of them are not dumping them, because they could totally clean out the buy offers any time but they have not done so. They are maybe even the very people who are buying as well as selling, like I do, to keep the coin liquid. I have offers on Vircurex at every possible price on both buy and sell sides except the gap in between buy and sell where the actual trading at a given moment is going on. Thus basically whenever anyone sells I am buying but also whenever anyone buys I am selling. I have a fixed amount on the exchange and it just keeps changing how much of it is in bitcoins and how much is in devcoins as the buying and selling goes back and forth.

I would suggest that unless you like the idea of doing that - sitting on both sides of the gap between buys and sells, to profit on either direction - you simply forget about your DeVCoins until you hear they have gone back up above 200 satoshis each, or maybe 200 satoshis adjusted for bitcoin value increase since back when above 200 was the reasonable level bitcoins themselves were only worth $100 or less.

Looking at how much bitcoins have been going up, it has looked to me like maybe devcoins were actually being carried up with them to some extent, that is, devcoins haven't seemed offhand to me to be dropping relative to bitcoin as fast as bitcoin has been going up relative to fiat currencies. Is that not lately the case? Maybe I had the wrong impression.

I consider the times when DeVCoin is low to be great times to be buying, because I am confident they will go back up eventually.

When you bought for 250 satoshis per devcoin, how many dollars were bitcoins worth?

If you buy more devcoins while they are cheap, your average price paid per devcoin will become lower than 250 the more you buy the lower! Smiley Cheesy

I suggest not directly/instantly buying or selling "accepting the market price" but instead pick the price you want to buy or sell at put your offer there and sit back waiting for someone someday to take you up on your offer, instead of being the impatient side of the trade accepting some offer someone else already has in place. (Assuming a somewhat trusted exchange such as Vircurex that historically has always made good to its customers any time it took losses from hacks etc, of course, so you can feel reasonably confident leaving coins on the exchange waiting for your offer to be taken up by someone.)

-MarkM-


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November 10, 2013, 04:36:17 PM
 #1963

This is a great post, and I totally agree about being willing to hold out for a higher sell price.  I'm also playing around with trying to buy low and sell off a few points higher, although I think this is a tough time to get into that because the price of Bitcoin is running away so much, so I've kind of backed off of that even for the time being.  I'll try that again once the price of Bitcoin stabilizes a bit and alt coins start to move more.

I was noticing too that considering the fact that Bitcoin has about tripled in price over the past three weeks, Devcoin is actually holding out fairly well.  Yes, its value has fallen, but not proportionally to how much Bitcoin has gone up.  In fact, Devcoin has been sitting right around 19-20 sat the entire time that Bitcoins have gone from just under $300 to just under $400.  Now I notice bitcoin is back at $300 and falling and Devcoin price hasn't gone up either.  I'm not sure what all that means, but I have noticed a lot of alt coins have taken a hit, but I was expecting Devcoin to take an even bigger hit than it did.

I had never considered the whole issue where the amount of Devcoins doubles between year 1 and year 2 but only increases by a third between year 2 and year 3 and less thereafter.  So that would mean that we are currently experiencing the greatest price drops due to inflation that will ever happen, and this part should balance out as the coin "matures."

And I have a greater appreciation for those Devtome writers who have been at it for a long time and are holding onto their Devcoins (and not dumping them).  Although I do sell some of mine I do not sell anywhere near all of them (I don't have any desire to kill the price by selling down the buy wall either) and mine are starting to pile up as well.

My position has tended to be that the merged mined coins are ultimately a good bet simply because it is so trivially easy for miners to support them.

Most of the altcoins all have to divide up among them the hashing power that is available in the world, but the merged mined coins such as DeVCoin can all share the same massive bunch of hashing power so hopefully will long term be the most secure.

The thing about coins that never stop or even decrease the number of coins minted per block, such as DeVCoin and GRouPcoin and, I think, also CoiLedCoin and GeistGeld, is that in their second year the number of coins minted is 100% of what had previously existed, in their third year the number minted is 50% of what previously existed, in their fourth year the number minted is 33.33333333% of what previously existed and so on, that is to say it takes years for the new coins coming into existence in a given year to become a small fraction of the number already existing. Billions of DeVCoins already exist, but billions more are still being made. So it seems reasonable that it should take years from the time such coins are launched until their rate of inflation is low so we should expect that the first bunch of years people will dismiss them as printing way too many coins per year.

Take some comfort in the fact that at least some people who hold billions of them are not dumping them, because they could totally clean out the buy offers any time but they have not done so. They are maybe even the very people who are buying as well as selling, like I do, to keep the coin liquid. I have offers on Vircurex at every possible price on both buy and sell sides except the gap in between buy and sell where the actual trading at a given moment is going on. Thus basically whenever anyone sells I am buying but also whenever anyone buys I am selling. I have a fixed amount on the exchange and it just keeps changing how much of it is in bitcoins and how much is in devcoins as the buying and selling goes back and forth.

I would suggest that unless you like the idea of doing that - sitting on both sides of the gap between buys and sells, to profit on either direction - you simply forget about your DeVCoins until you hear they have gone back up above 200 satoshis each, or maybe 200 satoshis adjusted for bitcoin value increase since back when above 200 was the reasonable level bitcoins themselves were only worth $100 or less.

Looking at how much bitcoins have been going up, it has looked to me like maybe devcoins were actually being carried up with them to some extent, that is, devcoins haven't seemed offhand to me to be dropping relative to bitcoin as fast as bitcoin has been going up relative to fiat currencies. Is that not lately the case? Maybe I had the wrong impression.

I consider the times when DeVCoin is low to be great times to be buying, because I am confident they will go back up eventually.

When you bought for 250 satoshis per devcoin, how many dollars were bitcoins worth?

If you buy more devcoins while they are cheap, your average price paid per devcoin will become lower than 250 the more you buy the lower! Smiley Cheesy

I suggest not directly/instantly buying or selling "accepting the market price" but instead pick the price you want to buy or sell at put your offer there and sit back waiting for someone someday to take you up on your offer, instead of being the impatient side of the trade accepting some offer someone else already has in place. (Assuming a somewhat trusted exchange such as Vircurex that historically has always made good to its customers any time it took losses from hacks etc, of course, so you can feel reasonably confident leaving coins on the exchange waiting for your offer to be taken up by someone.)

-MarkM-


Buy low sell high is a great philosophy. But, get for free then hold on for dear life, is not.

My Negative Rating is For Bringing a Dead Thread Back to Life, Just BTW. Click The Link To See For Yourself.
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November 10, 2013, 05:26:01 PM
 #1964

Announcing http://bitezze.com an E-commerce business focused on the exchange of DVC and many other Crypto-Currency into tangible products and assets.



We currently carry Jewelry and Precious Metals in stock and ready to ship. Moreover, we intend to continually broaden our product offering to include a wide array consumer goods.



We founded Bitezze.com to sell Men’s and Women’s Jewelry as well as precious, semi-precious, and base metals in the form of coins, rounds, and ingots. Bitezze.com is an E-commerce business located in the United States.

Currently we accept at least 18 Crypto-currencies as well as US Dollars as a means of payment for your purchases.

Currencies Currently accepted:



US Dollar                   USD (Via Paypal)
Androids Tokens           ADT
Bitcoin                   BTC
Litecoin                   LTC
BBQCoin                   BQC   
CryptogenicBullion   CGB
Devcoin                   DVC   
Feathercoin            FTC
Infinitecoin                   IFC   
Krugercoin                   KGC
Namecoin                   NMC   
Redcoin                   RED
Peercoin                   PPC   
Starcoin                   STR
Terracoin                   TRC   
Worldcoin                   WDC
Primecoin                   XPM   
Novacoin                   NVC
Goldcoin                   GLD   
Megacoin                   MEC
Sexcoin                   SXC   
Zetacoin                   ZET


         
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November 10, 2013, 06:36:52 PM
 #1965

Round 28 is still being paid out, how long do we have left to write on Devtome to be included in round 29?

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November 10, 2013, 07:23:59 PM
 #1966

Round 29 ended at 113,300. Round starts, ends, and payouts are at http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=devtome_stats

Wekkel
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November 10, 2013, 10:19:01 PM
 #1967

I still do not have the hang of this "rounds" thing, but I assume that everything written but not counted in a round, will be counted in the following round?

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November 10, 2013, 11:27:27 PM
 #1968

in the charity/ directory, the latest round receiver file looks to be round 28, but I thought that round 29 just ended. What happened to the file for round 29 and will round 30 have its own file?

Does anyone know what is going on?

Thanks.

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November 10, 2013, 11:37:54 PM
 #1969

in the charity/ directory, the latest round receiver file looks to be round 28, but I thought that round 29 just ended. What happened to the file for round 29 and will round 30 have its own file?

Does anyone know what is going on?

Thanks.

Unthinkingbit will show up at some point and tell everyone the results for 29.

My Negative Rating is For Bringing a Dead Thread Back to Life, Just BTW. Click The Link To See For Yourself.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=155011
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November 11, 2013, 12:48:50 AM
 #1970

in the charity/ directory, the latest round receiver file looks to be round 28, but I thought that round 29 just ended. What happened to the file for round 29 and will round 30 have its own file?

Does anyone know what is going on?

Thanks.

Unthinkingbit will show up at some point and tell everyone the results for 29.

JewishBoy, you got another neg trust for posting about free money.

  BITMIXER.IO   High Volume Bitcoin MIXER  
BTC: 1JH2jybjWruvDD23wSe5PCY9Epmr45u6nQ - DVC: 1SMEAGqpm9JSpJ6JZaM5dEBptPTNahpFa - Earn Devcoins by Writing | Devcoin Official Site  | SAT
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November 11, 2013, 06:12:36 AM
 #1971

The round 29 devtome word earnings are pasted below and at:
https://raw.github.com/Unthinkingbit/charity/master/devtome_earnings_29.csv

Backa18,1A7mEa8zufBg2ajkQU8uezFKVvaxEqXr3g,45-Word Count(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:Backa18)
CryptoAddicto,1DKhy7jj8oB53iGZYrWzDSfcVoKHjsuxaa,6-Word Count(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:CryptoAddicto)
Ecafe,17tRggPGbLBVWFBoySALZXTABD2zSe3kEW,25-Word Count(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:Ecafe)
Fheenix,1JvdsgxiJQYAJSE4Tjs3BWbXZk6Kw9mxnB,55-Word Count(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:Fheenix)
FinShaggy,1Cz5aivRFToakTozfch7iZXSY2YBwd9qQZ,12-Word Count(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:FinShaggy)
Hayek,1KqMSjRnFpeWQUhDh3p2tGtRnPuZV486sM,6-Word Count(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:Hayek)
Kickaha4,12RuaN5UvZYkMn4BiiS4mMoffe3mgjzZMU,1-Word Count(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:Kickaha4)
Mabtc,1NqxTQ7D9w3oukfpYda8GHnXSYxr9xFoQS,19-Word Count(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:Mabtc)
Matt608,1Ks4roXAZj45sXRsWMfGqmAPmDoWZ9TAko,4-Word Count(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:Matt608)
Ninthaxis,1Hcx2ZWSA1nrp3HgAq8CFu4vyUzo1WAQCc,1-Word Count(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:Ninthaxis)
Pb321go,1F5uDaCF8ZP6kiLHvDhWsSNPHP6kwt7udi,2-Word Count(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:Pb321go)
Raptorak,1ASdsZ1JUwtVXDfYBx7MRNMeHQ8J51pSRw,1-Word Count(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:Raptorak)
Redmist,1KmDbkBGYzotq6aVf981H6aN2F5nc1SXdQ,6-Word Count(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:Redmist)
Thedischarger,1KZKMYixw4PDtu5ZbKqrahRWeAgputuVoc,14-Word Count(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:Thedischarger)
Wekkel,1MzbVj9PwcRCBK8thNTPg7x5R4BbsQgWAz,3-Word Count(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:Wekkel)
Wiser,1LpoMowMPEVWk2LaJUdAUNaK7gBDRA1r7F,11-Word Count(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:Wiser)
Wolf,1PrXnipPcdfNxANzxX1MTy6ko4RM8VNukm,3-Word Count(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:Wolf)

They are generated by devtome.py:
https://raw.github.com/Unthinkingbit/charity/master/devtome.py

The word counts for each writer are at:
https://raw.github.com/Unthinkingbit/charity/master/devtome_29.csv

The word earnings were generated on 2013-11-10, and the total word counts follow below.

Collated Word Count: 664,919
Collated Weighted Word Count: 199,469
Images: 1,219
Original Word Count: 3,582,592
Total Word Count: 4,247,511
Total Weighted Word Count: 3,794,251

Unthinkingbit
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November 11, 2013, 06:14:51 AM
 #1972

The round 28 and 29 rating word earnings are pasted below and at:
https://raw.github.com/Unthinkingbit/charity/master/rating_earnings_29.csv

Fheenix,1JvdsgxiJQYAJSE4Tjs3BWbXZk6Kw9mxnB,5-Rating Comments(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=rating_fheenix_28)
Raptorak,1ASdsZ1JUwtVXDfYBx7MRNMeHQ8J51pSRw,3-Rating Comments(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=rating_raptorak_28)
Smeagol,16gyrVWagSBN77hGMtQDSJNU3hrPGGRfVq,5-Rating Comments(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=rating_smeagol_28)
Unthinkingbit,17vec4jQGCzMEsTnivizHPaowE715tu2CB,5-Rating Comments(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=rating_unthinkingbit_28)
Wiser,1LpoMowMPEVWk2LaJUdAUNaK7gBDRA1r7F,5-Rating Comments(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=rating_wiser_28)
Fheenix,1JvdsgxiJQYAJSE4Tjs3BWbXZk6Kw9mxnB,5-Rating Comments(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=rating_fheenix_29)
Raptorak,1ASdsZ1JUwtVXDfYBx7MRNMeHQ8J51pSRw,3-Rating Comments(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=rating_raptorak_29)
Smeagol,16gyrVWagSBN77hGMtQDSJNU3hrPGGRfVq,5-Rating Comments(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=rating_smeagol_29)
Unthinkingbit,17vec4jQGCzMEsTnivizHPaowE715tu2CB,4-Rating Comments(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=rating_unthinkingbit_29)
Wiser,1LpoMowMPEVWk2LaJUdAUNaK7gBDRA1r7F,5-Rating Comments(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=rating_wiser_29)

They are generated by rating.py:
https://raw.github.com/Unthinkingbit/charity/master/rating.py

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November 11, 2013, 06:22:27 AM
 #1973

The round 29 marketing earnings are pasted below and at:
https://raw.github.com/Unthinkingbit/charity/master/marketing_earnings_29.csv

Alyssa85,1ERn5JRTm5P47LzhiLCbKtduwj9M3cPE81,1/5-Marketing(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:alyssa85)
Cryptoaddicto,1DKhy7jj8oB53iGZYrWzDSfcVoKHjsuxaa,2/5-Marketing(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:cryptoaddicto)
Emfox,1Emfox1WswYcd2YucUskRzqfRWKkcm1Jut,34/5-Marketing(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:emfox)
Fheenix,1JvdsgxiJQYAJSE4Tjs3BWbXZk6Kw9mxnB,16/5-Marketing(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:fheenix)
Fuzzybear,18xskifRMWUtMzbHSzQi7rEWF5upmktgF2,13/5-Marketing(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:fuzzybear)
Jasinlee,1Ahu957fXXwhJ5LqmpxMFHVWwSQ7h4PkXb,15/5-Marketing(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:jasinlee)
Knotwork,121Pb2BBrU7C61vBdWCKVuFFmaEZr6xFAX,6/5-Marketing(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:knotwork)
Matt608,1Ks4roXAZj45sXRsWMfGqmAPmDoWZ9TAko,1/5-Marketing(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:matt608)
Metazilla,1CJSRunQtPQsiZRK7vznyeCfyDTb2kxGA8,1/5-Marketing(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:metazilla)
Raptorak,1ASdsZ1JUwtVXDfYBx7MRNMeHQ8J51pSRw,10/5-Marketing(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:raptorak)
Smeagol,16gyrVWagSBN77hGMtQDSJNU3hrPGGRfVq,7/5-Marketing(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:smeagol)
Twobits,13A2e3wX9MVMtP1JMxGFcbd2ZuSeVLe8uZ,12/5-Marketing(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:twobits)
Unthinkingbit,17vec4jQGCzMEsTnivizHPaowE715tu2CB,6/5-Marketing(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:unthinkingbit)
Wiser,1LpoMowMPEVWk2LaJUdAUNaK7gBDRA1r7F,2/5-Marketing(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:wiser)
Xchrix,13Q4drkP51gHsabCUXC5XPEBEUUYurMdvB,3/5-Marketing(http://devtome.com/doku.php?id=wiki:user:xchrix)

Total payout is 129/5 = 25.8.

The earnings are generated by marketing.py:
https://raw.github.com/Unthinkingbit/charity/master/marketing.py


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November 11, 2013, 08:07:27 AM
 #1974

I sent 23 coins to each of the people who haven't received generation devcoins before to ensure that their address is correct:

Backa18,1A7mEa8zufBg2ajkQU8uezFKVvaxEqXr3g
Ninthaxis,1Hcx2ZWSA1nrp3HgAq8CFu4vyUzo1WAQCc
Wekkel,1MzbVj9PwcRCBK8thNTPg7x5R4BbsQgWAz

If you're on that list, please check that you received the coins. The receiver files will be made in several hours, and once made they can't be changed.

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November 11, 2013, 09:25:31 AM
 #1975

Oops I have a load more philosophy essays and notes to publish, look like It will have to go into round 30...

       ▄██▄
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.HydroMiner
~~~~~~~~~~~~
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           ▀▀▀▀         ▀▀▀▀
.Green Mining with Hydro Power
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        ▀▀▀███████▀▀▀      
gondel
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November 11, 2013, 10:03:06 AM
 #1976

Hello,
sorry if i post wrongly here, but i still dont understand how much can be earned in devcoins for writing articles? For example how much is for one word? After posting several articles when to expect a payment? Thank you so much. Roll Eyes
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November 11, 2013, 11:51:22 AM
 #1977

Hello,
sorry if i post wrongly here, but i still dont understand how much can be earned in devcoins for writing articles? For example how much is for one word? After posting several articles when to expect a payment? Thank you so much. Roll Eyes

1000 words is about 10$, so about 1 cent per world.  Once you post enough articles you will get paid.

Welcome to Devtome!  Smiley

P.S. (To all) How much is a share worth this round?  Thanks.

  BITMIXER.IO   High Volume Bitcoin MIXER  
BTC: 1JH2jybjWruvDD23wSe5PCY9Epmr45u6nQ - DVC: 1SMEAGqpm9JSpJ6JZaM5dEBptPTNahpFa - Earn Devcoins by Writing | Devcoin Official Site  | SAT
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Oy Vey!!


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November 11, 2013, 04:41:29 PM
 #1978

in the charity/ directory, the latest round receiver file looks to be round 28, but I thought that round 29 just ended. What happened to the file for round 29 and will round 30 have its own file?

Does anyone know what is going on?

Thanks.

Unthinkingbit will show up at some point and tell everyone the results for 29.

JewishBoy, you got another neg trust for posting about free money.

I never posted about free money. I told people about MCXnow interest. It's truly bullshit. But I don't care, I work best in harsh conditions.

My Negative Rating is For Bringing a Dead Thread Back to Life, Just BTW. Click The Link To See For Yourself.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=155011
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Oy Vey!!


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November 11, 2013, 04:44:48 PM
 #1979

I believe this month Devtome is going to see more writers than ever and more words added than ever.

My Negative Rating is For Bringing a Dead Thread Back to Life, Just BTW. Click The Link To See For Yourself.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=155011
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November 11, 2013, 04:56:44 PM
 #1980

WOW it feels so good to see myself on that list yeey  Cool
I received the 23 coins from Unthinkingbit, just the heads up..
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