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Author Topic: Merit & new rank requirements  (Read 143973 times)
Magister Magus
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February 03, 2018, 08:12:58 PM
 #2201

Ah, I forgot a very important aspect: it seems that the simple fact of receiving a merit unleash suspicions, if your are not a high rank member.
I received five, and I just wonder if there isn't the risk that I need to justify myself about who and why gave me these merits.
I saw that moderators are very active in this sense, and they made a lot of bans and negative trust, about suspect merit trade, merit begging, and so on. May be they are right, may be not, but... please DON'T GIVE ME ANY MERIT!!!! IT'S TOO DANGEROUS!!!!


Merit sales, transfers to aliases, back-and-forth trading, etc. are not much of an issue. All illegitimate merit will decay, and will account for a tiny and very expensive fraction of the total merit economy. It's basically a rounding error; fight it where convenient, but waste no sleep over it.

I think that actmyname has been too hasty with some of his negatives, but I haven't had time to look carefully enough into it to justify making forceful changes. I did exclude actmyname from my trust list, so another DT1 could remove him from the default trust network by doing the same.
So what are you proposing that be done against shady behavior regarding the merit system? Nothing? Or are you simply saying that *we could/should* tag them, but that some of the tag's by actmyname were unwarranted?

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ibminer
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February 03, 2018, 08:18:02 PM
Last edit: February 03, 2018, 08:31:10 PM by ibminer
 #2202

Merit sales, transfers to aliases, back-and-forth trading, etc. are not much of an issue. All illegitimate merit will decay, and will account for a tiny and very expensive fraction of the total merit economy. It's basically a rounding error; fight it where convenient, but waste no sleep over it.

How will merit be deemed illegitimate and decay?


Merit awards may be too spotty/uneven currently, though it's still too early to say. In addition to continuously adding more sources, if things could still use improvement in this regard in a couple of months, I may do something like decay old sMerit and unused source merit and randomly redistribute the decayed merit. How the random distribution would work would magnify past merit -- so perhaps you would get an increased chance of winning extra merit for every post you've made which has at least 1 merit, but certainly you would not get any extra merit if none of your posts was ever merited.

Magnifying past merits with decayed merit seems like a great idea. Would this be an equal distribution amongst all merit'd posts?   Would they magnify random posts by 1 or some sort of percentage based on the total merit received on the respective post?


Now, I'm not 100% sure that actmyname's ratings are outside of what I would consider appropriate, which is why I didn't take action to immediately remove him. But from what I've seen, it does seem likely that he is too trigger-happy.

To be clear, is it only the merit-based trust that you are concerned with regarding actmyname?
And are you solely looking at feedback that has been left after actmyname has been added to DT or are you looking at all prior feedback?

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cryptoneum
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February 03, 2018, 08:43:34 PM
Merited by Muhammad Muneeb (1)
 #2203

Merit is a good and fair system and encourages new members to post quality post to increase their rankings. But is there a way to stop Higher rank members from posting garbage just to earn bounty rewards?
Magister Magus
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February 03, 2018, 09:04:29 PM
 #2204

Hey, just a question!
I just click the "merit" link on my post (it seemed strange that it existed...) , and I saw I can send merit to myself! (I didn't click, so may be it doesn't work).
This sounds to to me as a bug. Can you check?

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JayJuanGee
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February 03, 2018, 09:13:25 PM
 #2205

Hey, just a question!
I just click the "merit" link on my post (it seemed strange that it existed...) , and I saw I can send merit to myself! (I didn't click, so may be it doesn't work).
This sounds to to me as a bug. Can you check?

Click on merit for yourself.  Try it.  It does not work.  You will get an error message; however, if it does work, and you do get a merit from yourself, then you have ur selfie a bug to report.

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How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
Husires
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February 03, 2018, 09:42:59 PM
 #2206

I like that good forum members can make money, especially when said forum members are in poorer countries and this is a major opportunity for them.
This shows a great wisdom from you.


This system has a number of flaws but in general it is good and very fair.
These defects can be solved in the future and do not affect the system as a whole "Link merit to first activity"
nullius
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February 03, 2018, 10:45:21 PM
 #2207

2) Secondly and perhaps more important merit requirements should be lowered (full member onwards)!


You have it backwards:  The merit requirements for upper ranks should be raised.  Especially for Legendary status.  That threshold should be at least doubled or trebled.  If somebody can’t earn some thousands of merits in 2–3 years of active posting, then that person has no right to be called “Legendary”.

Full Member=50 Merit, Senior Member=100 Merit, Hero=200 Merit, and Legendary=300 Merit.

That would make a joke of the merit system.  Starting from zero as a then Jr. Member, after only five days of actively posting since I returned to the forum, I myself would now be nearly merit-eligible for Hero status.  Why, I should be merit-eligible to make Hero tomorrow!

I observe that you have thus far earned no merit whatsoever.  You are currently at a flat 250, which was given to you based on your pre-existing status as a Sr. Member.  Thus, your suggestion makes you no different from any of the whining newbies who complain about how oh so tough this system is.  Please!  Go make some quality posts.  The forum needs that.

digaran
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111113DUwES2ZNWSJztA3oBuhzfcdmiaG


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February 03, 2018, 10:59:13 PM
 #2208

It's too early to get a clear picture, but my thoughts so far:

First, most people complaining about merit are constantly posting garbage, and should not rank-up. The forum is not a welfare system; you don't run through a few hoops and then get paid for doing something that nobody actually wants. I like that good forum members can make money, especially when said forum members are in poorer countries and this is a major opportunity for them. I very much do not want to destroy the sig-ad/airdrop/bounty "industry". But I am not going to tolerate people posting garbage upon garbage. If the merit system completely fails and I can't think of anything else to replace it, then my next step will probably be to completely remove all ways for forum users to make money from posting (eg. removing signatures entirely).
Why would anybody change when they are posting for free? who told you to pay for the servers and staffs? why would I change my behavior if I could have 200 members post to promote my ICO for free? I'm hiring people to promote my ICO and will pay them after collecting money, if the first one failed, I'll launch another one.

Did you try charging fees per post from anybody with a paid signature?
Why member and full members need to wear signatures?

How many moderators could you hire if every body had to pay $0.5 per post?

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InvoKing
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February 03, 2018, 11:15:30 PM
Merited by JayJuanGee (1)
 #2209

This is day 11 since we started using the Merit system and I have less than the half of sMerit i started with.
Main consequence : i am getting more selective, i would like to give some posts 1 point but then I say : well, better to keep my predefined tiny number for better posts in the +oo.
My suggestion : adding a report feature to sources. You like a post then press a button : "suggest this post to sources" (accuracy could be done here too but whatever). Of course, if this feature will get popular, it is impossible to handle all of it but...well, you aren't obliged to do it. Some people who aren't sources could join the club too if they like to do some charity.
mrelich
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February 03, 2018, 11:21:18 PM
 #2210

Hi,
What about to limit amount of merit that can be given at once? Or limit the amount of merit that can be given to specific user?
I've already seen a thread where somebody wanted to sell his sMerit - so these limitations could help against it - what do you think guys?
Nice weekend to all !
DGulari
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February 03, 2018, 11:24:41 PM
 #2211

Hi,
What about to limit amount of merit that can be given at once? Or limit the amount of merit that can be given to specific user?
I've already seen a thread where somebody wanted to sell his sMerit - so these limitations could help against it - what do you think guys?
Nice weekend to all !
50 sMerit as the limit.


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InvoKing
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February 03, 2018, 11:26:18 PM
 #2212

Hi,
What about to limit amount of merit that can be given at once? Or limit the amount of merit that can be given to specific user?
I've already seen a thread where somebody wanted to sell his sMerit - so these limitations could help against it - what do you think guys?
Nice weekend to all !

Report the topic if he is offering to give sMerit for money.
There is a limitation of 50 per post.
Personally prefer to disable sMerit-on to legendary and limit sMerit-out to 10 per month for everyone except sources (which isn't obvious).
nullius
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February 03, 2018, 11:31:09 PM
Merited by LoyceV (1)
 #2213

Why would anybody change when they are posting for free? who told you to pay for the servers and staffs? why would I change my behavior if I could have 200 members post to promote my ICO for free? I'm hiring people to promote my ICO and will pay them after collecting money, if the first one failed, I'll launch another one.

Did you try charging fees per post from anybody with a paid signature?
Why member and full members need to wear signatures?

How many moderators could you hire if every body had to pay $0.5 per post?

Why the hell would I pay for the privilege of giving my valuable time and effort to post?

Of course, I don’t have a paid signature.  But if pay-to-post were enacted only for accounts with paid signatures, this would cause two problems:  (0) Reliably identifying such accounts.  If accounts with paid signatures had to pay to post and others didn’t, then some signature campaigns would simply go underground.  Yes, my friend asked me to put this big, flashy link in my signature.  Nobody paid me.  Now, you need mods to search for accounts making unpaid posts with paid signatures, and perform adequately thorough investigations of them.  (1) Account farmers would set their bots to spew garbage with no signature from new accounts, until those accounts reached a high rank.  Then, they could pay a small fee for every spam bearing a colourful billboard.  Depending on how the economics work out, that may be profitable for them even if their posts are deleted after x average time.  To tilt the economics squarely against them, the fee may need to rise too high for everybody else.

All in all, this “pay to post” idea sounds too much like the “e-mail postage” idea.  Competent spamfighters were always strictly against the latter, on grounds that it would not work and it would create too much collateral damage.

The only solution to the problem of quality is to measure quality, viz., to enact some system for discriminating between valuable posts and worthless drivel.  That’s what we now have.


You like a post then press a button : "suggest this post to sources"

That would be a boon to beggars—and most of all to farmers with lots of alts.

d5000
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February 03, 2018, 11:31:19 PM
Merited by nullius (1)
 #2214

But if I read the old posts of a lot of high rank members, I find a lot of shitpost, and I just wonder why "they" had this privilege by luck in the meanwhile I have to work hard for the same results. I agree, life is unfair, but this aspect is very disturbing.
So you consider people who reached high ranks spamming the forum "lucky"?

Do you also consider other spammers "lucky", like e-mail spammers? Or to be even harder: What about thieves?

It may sound harsh, but spamming the forum to the point it becomes almost unusable, and earn money for it is a destructive behaviour, like other spamming activity is, and thus should be sanctioned. If you consider it "lucky", there are lots of similar destructive, but profitable activities, inside and outside the Internet, that you could try instead. Wink

"Old Legendary spammers" are obviously destructive, too; but they can be sanctioned in other ways (banned, red trust etc.). The good thing about the Merit system is that they cannot "reproduce" themselves anymore (at least not easily), so the problem should become more manageable now.

JayJuanGee
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How much alt coin diversification is needed? 0%?


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February 03, 2018, 11:34:33 PM
 #2215

It's too early to get a clear picture, but my thoughts so far:

First, most people complaining about merit are constantly posting garbage, and should not rank-up. The forum is not a welfare system; you don't run through a few hoops and then get paid for doing something that nobody actually wants. I like that good forum members can make money, especially when said forum members are in poorer countries and this is a major opportunity for them. I very much do not want to destroy the sig-ad/airdrop/bounty "industry". But I am not going to tolerate people posting garbage upon garbage. If the merit system completely fails and I can't think of anything else to replace it, then my next step will probably be to completely remove all ways for forum users to make money from posting (eg. removing signatures entirely).
Why would anybody change when they are posting for free? who told you to pay for the servers and staffs? why would I change my behavior if I could have 200 members post to promote my ICO for free? I'm hiring people to promote my ICO and will pay them after collecting money, if the first one failed, I'll launch another one.

Did you try charging fees per post from anybody with a paid signature?
Why member and full members need to wear signatures?

How many moderators could you hire if every body had to pay $0.5 per post?


Your various questions, digaran, come off as unnecessarily argumentative.  It is like you are trying to suggests a whole lot of changes would be better than the existing system, without you yourself attempting to grapple within the parameters of the existing system.

You know Theymos and administrators decided to go in a certain direction with the forum that includes signatures and their current monetization of the forum (which I truely don't know the details of such), yet you seem to be suggesting some kind of radically different monetization and incentive alignment dynamic that is far removed from the framework that is already in place.  How is that going to be constructive and/or helpful, rather than gratuitously argumentative?

Put BTC here: 35EVP8EePt8dyvKHaB7bXaRmKLm22YgRCA

How much alt coin diversification is necessary? if you are investing in Bitcoin, then perhaps 0%?
Veidt
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February 03, 2018, 11:35:19 PM
 #2216

The thing is, noone is using it (less than 0,001% from what ive seen), and noone will be using it. There is no motivation for me to give a merit to someone.. This way, nobody will be able to rank up. It's ridiculous to think that this will ever work. I will never be able to gather 110 merit to rank up.. there is no way. There must be another way.

Thats what I do, I drink beer and I know stuff.
nullius
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February 03, 2018, 11:43:21 PM
 #2217

<snipped by nullius>

Your various questions, digaran, come off as unnecessarily argumentative.  It is like you are trying to suggests a whole lot of changes would be better than the existing system, without you yourself attempting to grapple within the parameters of the existing system.

As of this writing, digaran has 508 merit.  As a “Hero” (allegedly), he received 500 merit for free.  Thus in the past nine days, he has been earning merit at the underwhelming average rate of <0.9 merit per day.

All along, I’ve been noting the merit levels (or lack thereof) of Newbies and Jr. Members who in some fashion dislike the merit system.  With a simple arithmetical operation, that easily extends to identifying highly-ranked accounts who would never have reached their status under the merit system—as such, who do not merit their status.

(I addressed the substance of digaran’s post; but it bears examining potential for self-interest motives, also.)

mrelich
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February 03, 2018, 11:47:16 PM
 #2218

The idea of the merit system is very good. However, I think there might be one issue with this merit system. The only users that have enough sMerits to give are Full/Hero/Legendary users. However, they are profiting from their Avatars and signatures - they are getting more stakes in signature campaigns, because they have higher ranks. If they give their sMerits to lower rank users, then more users became Full/Hero/Legendary and they won't get so much profit from their stakes in signature campaigns. So that might prevent some of them giving sMerit to anyone. I hope most of Full/Hero/Legendary users don't think like that and I am not sure what is a solution if they do .. what do you think?
thotknectar
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February 03, 2018, 11:59:17 PM
 #2219

Hey thank you for posting this, I thought I was trying pretty hard to find information on the merit system,
but it's proven to be quite difficult to find an official thread on this topic. This should be pinned somewhere
on a beginners & help thread!!

This way so many people won't be asking for the information lol.
InvoKing
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February 04, 2018, 12:16:48 AM
 #2220

You like a post then press a button : "suggest this post to sources"

That would be a boon to beggars—and most of all to farmers with lots of alts.

True, for sure it will be eligible only for higher ranks and preferably excluding this feature from your own post.
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