NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[martismartis]

Oh no, VS again. And global warming in addition. Where this thread will go in future? UFO?

[Zahlen]

Everyone has an opinion and I don't think it matters that much if people want to express that but for sure it won't help Nxt to get caught up in such issues.

I think it's fine that people want to express their opinions, but there are places for that. Want to discuss whether AGW is real, and whether NXT can make an impact? Fine, start a thread at nxtcrypto or nextcoin and post a link to it here, instead of trying to stuff another conversation into this megathread.

~24 hours ago, I was talking about the How To Generate a Secure Password wiki page. Pretty much every post and reply I made, I invited people to register on the wiki and comment on the Talk page. I kept linking to it like this.  Agree/disagree with my exposition/offered method? Have ideas? Want to make changes? All great!   But please do it where it's appropriate! I don't want to have to keep digging through this 1000+ page lump to find info.

(And after all that, no one has yet to write anything in the Talk page, including people who have commented about it and are already registered on the wiki. (i.e. who don't have to wait to register.) This tells me something about how much folks really care )

Uniqueorn, you and other folks should know by now how difficult it is to communicate in this thread.

[Mistafreeze]

You're being condescending to a large part of the Nxt community, which is unhelpful in any discussion.  My opinion is that GW should be left out of Nxt marketing.  Discussing the fact that Nxt is energy efficient should be promoted though.

I am being condescending to those who are disrespectful to the people who have devoted their entire lifes to seek the truth and illuminate the public about this. Yes. I am 100% proud of being condescending towards those people.
This is not a matter of politics and opinions, this is a matter of life and death for MILLIONS of people in this world, today, not some projected dystopian future scenario. This is occuring today!

If you do not accept science as a GPS then wtf do you accept? Your own fantasy? Then you are a solipsist.


AND AGAIN: I AM NOT THE ONE who wanted drama. I am simply stating the current state of science and highlighting how we can gain a HUGE marketing advantage due to it.
If we send the math to different sci and tech magazines they will run a lot of stories comparing NXT to Bitcoin in the grand scheme of things.
If you google Bitcoin + emissions you will see that there are already hundreds of articles on this. How the fuck are we going to turn down that oppourtunity due to a few ignorants?

Are we going to become the CyberWallstreet? Devoid of morals and only caring about our own wallets? Am I the only one here who actually cares about NXTs potential to make a huge impact on the worlds economy and environment?

Alright, this is all I'm going to say on the subject. Global warming is based on a small snapshot of data, just as global cooling was in the 70's. Zoom the data out using ice cores and rock samples, and it becomes clear this is a natural cycle and the Earth is far cooler than it has been in the past while supporting life. Global warming alarmist ignore the expansion of the ice shelves the last few years and that global avreage temperature has actually been cooler, because it doesn't fit their need for a crisis. Less than 40 years ago we thought the world was going to freeze, now we think it's going to burn up? I'm all for conservation and reducing our footprint, but stop screaming that the sky is falling. It isn't.

Humans have released about 4% of the Earth's CO2 through our entire existence. Cows.....yes, cows release more CO2 per year than humans.

Every generation needs a crisis, and this is ours. Global Warming is an industry, not reality.

[BitcoinForumator]

Alright, that sums it up.

Nxt subject = NXT.

[ChuckOne]

I was thinking of the voting issue as well. So far, a pattern is emerging.

Let v be the voting function, mapping the amount x in one account to it's voting weight: v(x) -> weight of voting. Let's further assume v is monotonically increasing (the more you have the more your vote weigh in) and differentiable (so we have a v').

There are three cases:

1) v' is increasing => merging accounts is more valuable regarding voting => merging encouraged
2) v' is constant => 1 Nxt = 1 Vote; conservative; no change encouraged
3) v' is decreasing => splitting accounts is more valuable regarding voting => splitting encouraged

From my perspective, distribution of nxts is a good thing. So, higher amounts of fees are a good thing. Therefore, splitting and merging accounts should be encouraged as big shareholders then have to give away fees. These fees are then given to the ones forging and stabilizing the network.

On the other hand, splitting and merging just because somebody wants to act in the best interest of the network seem to me like spoon-feeding that somebody.

So, why not making v dependent of the amount of fee somebody is willing to pay for it. I favor a logarithmic scale: v(fee) = log(fee).
In that case, one could even imagine that these special fees aren't just given to block forgers but are evenly distributed among 'all voters' or 'winners' or 'loosers' of the voting session.
So, voting is encouraged.

Please, can you put your approach in a mathematical expression?
That would be really helpful!!!
Just write it down in one or more terms.
Don't care about if its bullet proof.
If you like, you could add it to collection of voting models?

cheers

Errr, I try. Not sure, what is it exactly you need? Unfortunately, I do not find any formular symbols here.

An example; two accounts x and y:
1) Let's confine ourselves to multiple-choice-polls with some options O.
2) Each account can pay some Nxt an option o. (multiple options allowed).
3) The weight w(o) of each option o is: log( x1 + x2 ... + xn ) + log( y1 + y2 + .. + ym ) where xi are the fees paid for o by x and yi are the fees paid for o by y.
4) The set of options O can be sorted by the weights of each option.
-----------------------------
4) Some aspect which come to my mind recently would be an aging effect. That is each coin spent on an option is worth less and less in the future.
In the example above:
w(o) =  log( x1/tx1 + x2/tx2 ... + xn/txn ) + log( y1/ty1 + y2/ty2 + .. + ym/tym ) where txi and tyi is the amount of time passed since spending on option o.

4) would force account holders to repay their opinions if they find them worth it. So diminishing their stake over time.

[Kattywampus]

Conference Update #12

eB101 and myself have been walking around shaking hands today and we started to discuss community organization on the international side. eB101 is heading to France very soon and has a couple meetings lined up to discuss Nxt and see if we can get some traction in that market.

I feel like we could use someone that is in charge of international initiatives so that we can have a coordinated and uniform marketing across all countries. eB101 said that he would be willing to step in that role and help out the community.

I would like to get the communities thoughts on this and see if we can make this happen.

[smartwart]

Oh no, VS again. And global warming in addition. Where this thread will go in future? UFO?

yeah, its sunday....
But at all, its not clear if they talk about global warming in general or anthropocentric global warming?
Hmmm, anyway...

[Uniqueorn]

You're being condescending to a large part of the Nxt community, which is unhelpful in any discussion.  My opinion is that GW should be left out of Nxt marketing.  Discussing the fact that Nxt is energy efficient should be promoted though.

I am being condescending to those who are disrespectful to the people who have devoted their entire lifes to seek the truth and illuminate the public about this. Yes. I am 100% proud of being condescending towards those people.
This is not a matter of politics and opinions, this is a matter of life and death for MILLIONS of people in this world, today, not some projected dystopian future scenario. This is occuring today!

If you do not accept science as a GPS then wtf do you accept? Your own fantasy? Then you are a solipsist.


AND AGAIN: I AM NOT THE ONE who wanted drama. I am simply stating the current state of science and highlighting how we can gain a HUGE marketing advantage due to it.
If we send the math to different sci and tech magazines they will run a lot of stories comparing NXT to Bitcoin in the grand scheme of things.
If you google Bitcoin + emissions you will see that there are already hundreds of articles on this. How the fuck are we going to turn down that oppourtunity due to a few ignorants?

Are we going to become the CyberWallstreet? Devoid of morals and only caring about our own wallets? Am I the only one here who actually cares about NXTs potential to make a huge impact on the worlds economy and environment?

Alright, this is all I'm going to say on the subject. Global warming is based on a small snapshot of data, just as global cooling was in the 70's. Zoom the data out using ice cores and rock samples, and it becomes clear this is a natural cycle and the Earth is far cooler than it has been in the past while supporting life. Global warming alarmist ignore the expansion of the ice shelves the last few years and that global avreage temperature has actually been cooler, because it doesn't fit their need for a crisis. Less than 40 years ago we thought the world was going to freeze, now we think it's going to burn up? I'm all for conservation and reducing our footprint, but stop screaming that the sky is falling. It isn't.

Humans have released about 4% of the Earth's CO2 through our entire existence. Cows.....yes, cows release more CO2 per year than humans.

Every generation needs a crisis, and this is ours. Global Warming is an industry, not reality.

You've bought so many myths, I think you should head over to Jamie at the Discovery channel and ask if he's willing to buy them off you.
You actually think that the things you are typing hasn't already been covered by TENS OF THOUSANDS of PhDs? Haha the arrogance is fucking beyond belief. I cannot believe that in 2014 there are people who has the oppourtunity to get online, yet they don't understand global warming.

And since you bring up cows, the biggest problem with cows is methane, not CO2 This is 5th grade science man.
And again: who invented the system of livestock ? Humans. Do you really think there was this many cows roaming around pre-the industrial era? lol

It's saddening to see that it seems almsot the majority of NXTers are living in the 18th century. Next thing you know evolution must be removed from our marketing. "Nono cant say NXT is the nxt generation in the evolution of cryptos, evolution is just a theory yo!!"

[ChuckOne]

I was thinking of the voting issue as well. So far, a pattern is emerging.

Let v be the voting function, mapping the amount x in one account to it's voting weight: v(x) -> weight of voting. Let's further assume v is monotonically increasing (the more you have the more your vote weigh in) and differentiable (so we have a v').

There are three cases:

1) v' is increasing => merging accounts is more valuable regarding voting => merging encouraged
2) v' is constant => 1 Nxt = 1 Vote; conservative; no change encouraged
3) v' is decreasing => splitting accounts is more valuable regarding voting => splitting encouraged

From my perspective, distribution of nxts is a good thing. So, higher amounts of fees are a good thing. Therefore, splitting and merging accounts should be encouraged as big shareholders then have to give away fees. These fees are then given to the ones forging and stabilizing the network.

On the other hand, splitting and merging just because somebody wants to act in the best interest of the network seem to me like spoon-feeding that somebody.

So, why not making v dependent of the amount of fee somebody is willing to pay for it. I favor a logarithmic scale: v(fee) = log(fee).
In that case, one could even imagine that these special fees aren't just given to block forgers but are evenly distributed among 'all voters' or 'winners' or 'loosers' of the voting session.
So, voting is encouraged.

Please, can you put your approach in a mathematical expression?
That would be really helpful!!!
Just write it down in one or more terms.
Don't care about if its bullet proof.
If you like, you could add it to collection of voting models?

cheers

Regarding the distribution of the voting fees, everyone that voted for a poll would get:
gain = sum of voting fees for that poll / number of voters for that poll

[EvilDave]

+ 1 NXT        ==   x Vote  { x = Func(accountBalance) =  polynom * accountBalance}

+ 1 Account  ==  1 Vote   { vote = Func(accountBalance) =  0.5 * accountBalance}

These won't work. They are easily defeated by splitting your wealth over several accounts.

I'm in favor of one vote per NXT.  That maximizes the value of each NXT rather than the value of having multiple accounts, or paying people to scam the system for you in some other way.

Any time you try to decentralized system that makes it difficult to game the system, you restrict the people who game the system to people who are willing to go against the implied moral contract of the platform (that you'll play by the rules).   In that way, I suggest it is better to allow everybody to "cheat" so that "cheating" is performed by good actors AND bad actors instead of just by actors willing to be bad.

NXT has a major concentration of wealth right now, but that's changing pretty quickly and if it gets popular I've got to imagine the temptation to sell part of their stakes will be too great for most.

It's really interesting watching this community - you guys are the only "headless" metalayer, lacking a founder or team and yet delivering with real working software.  

Keep up the good work

+10, thank you very much.

I had no.....

massive cut

....mining altcoin don't become THE FUTURE.

I personally believe ....

massive cut....

Energy efficiency over Bitcoin is a valid point.  Saying switching to NXT is going to Save The World is a stretch.  We should not go there.

Ricky, unique.....If we are going to debate personal politics, here is so not the right place.
I think you guys and I are probably in the same camp on these issues, but GW is simply too damn emotive an issue to allow into this thread.
Head for off-topic section if we must have a NXT + GW debate. Or religion, or politics....

NXT is a currency (and it's associated eco-system) Like it or not, everyone (left/right/whatever) can use it for their own purposes.
One of the coolest aspects of the NXT community is how a wide variety of people are working together on a collective project. We don't need to agree with each other......so:

NO BLOODY GLOBAL WARMING DEBATE. NOT HERE. Please.  

Smaragda + Mistafreeze too...leave it, please. Start a thread in off-topic,send out some invites, but debating it on this thread is inappropriate

[jl777]

So, voting.

- The only thing we can reliably use is the total amount of money, but that is bad, because for some decisions this will be very undemocratic.
- We can't apply any "compressor" function to the wealth, because people will split into multiple accounts.
- We can't vote by accounts because they are cheap to create.
- We can't use PoW or Turing tests, because it's impractical and stupid (solving 30 captchas?). Can also be circumvented by paying cheap labor to do it.
- We can't use passport chips with challenge, because they are too rare.
- Maybe we could use what Bitcoin is trying to do with passports and zero-knowledge proof, but probably not until they actually implemented it.
- We can't use iris scans, because of privacy concerns and practical difficulties.

Come on, brilliant minds in here, think! What can we do?

Tiered voting weight by reputation
Feedbacks for people in community to calculate multipliers for each person
Minimum voting weight is 1, max weight is ... Tbd

Some people are just more equal than others, this is reality and not unreasonable. Shouldnt klee have more weight than me? So if this is cool with community we just need to figure out feedback system and max weight

James

[Mistafreeze]

You're being condescending to a large part of the Nxt community, which is unhelpful in any discussion.  My opinion is that GW should be left out of Nxt marketing.  Discussing the fact that Nxt is energy efficient should be promoted though.

I am being condescending to those who are disrespectful to the people who have devoted their entire lifes to seek the truth and illuminate the public about this. Yes. I am 100% proud of being condescending towards those people.
This is not a matter of politics and opinions, this is a matter of life and death for MILLIONS of people in this world, today, not some projected dystopian future scenario. This is occuring today!

If you do not accept science as a GPS then wtf do you accept? Your own fantasy? Then you are a solipsist.


AND AGAIN: I AM NOT THE ONE who wanted drama. I am simply stating the current state of science and highlighting how we can gain a HUGE marketing advantage due to it.
If we send the math to different sci and tech magazines they will run a lot of stories comparing NXT to Bitcoin in the grand scheme of things.
If you google Bitcoin + emissions you will see that there are already hundreds of articles on this. How the fuck are we going to turn down that oppourtunity due to a few ignorants?

Are we going to become the CyberWallstreet? Devoid of morals and only caring about our own wallets? Am I the only one here who actually cares about NXTs potential to make a huge impact on the worlds economy and environment?

Alright, this is all I'm going to say on the subject. Global warming is based on a small snapshot of data, just as global cooling was in the 70's. Zoom the data out using ice cores and rock samples, and it becomes clear this is a natural cycle and the Earth is far cooler than it has been in the past while supporting life. Global warming alarmist ignore the expansion of the ice shelves the last few years and that global avreage temperature has actually been cooler, because it doesn't fit their need for a crisis. Less than 40 years ago we thought the world was going to freeze, now we think it's going to burn up? I'm all for conservation and reducing our footprint, but stop screaming that the sky is falling. It isn't.

Humans have released about 4% of the Earth's CO2 through our entire existence. Cows.....yes, cows release more CO2 per year than humans.

Every generation needs a crisis, and this is ours. Global Warming is an industry, not reality.

And since you bring up cows, the biggest problem with cows is methane, not CO2 This is 5th grade science man.
And again: who invented the system of livestock ? Humans. Do you really think there was this many cows roaming around pre-the industrial era? lol

It's saddening to see that it seems almsot the majority of NXTers are living in the 18th century. Next thing you know evolution must be removed from our marketing. "Nono cant say NXT is the nxt generation in the evolution of cryptos, evolution is just a theory yo!!"

No shit? You just proved my point. Not one thing I said is a myth, study it. Notice how my post didn't get personal and didn't talk down on anyone. Your's on the other hand seeks to shout down honest debate with nothing but personal attacks.

Also, I believe in evolution, not creationism, I have looked at the data (Like the skewed graphs used to support it.....forget about those?) and not to mention the biggest thing to look into with ANY science.......who pays for the study. Once you know that, you know if it's junk.

[ChuckOne]

In the end, noone will ever use that voting system for a global view on things.

But... I though we agreed to take over the world..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTTC_fD598A
 

Ah, damn. Of course. Sorry, my fault.

[Uniqueorn]

+ 1 NXT        ==   x Vote  { x = Func(accountBalance) =  polynom * accountBalance}

+ 1 Account  ==  1 Vote   { vote = Func(accountBalance) =  0.5 * accountBalance}

These won't work. They are easily defeated by splitting your wealth over several accounts.

I'm in favor of one vote per NXT.  That maximizes the value of each NXT rather than the value of having multiple accounts, or paying people to scam the system for you in some other way.

Any time you try to decentralized system that makes it difficult to game the system, you restrict the people who game the system to people who are willing to go against the implied moral contract of the platform (that you'll play by the rules).   In that way, I suggest it is better to allow everybody to "cheat" so that "cheating" is performed by good actors AND bad actors instead of just by actors willing to be bad.

NXT has a major concentration of wealth right now, but that's changing pretty quickly and if it gets popular I've got to imagine the temptation to sell part of their stakes will be too great for most.

It's really interesting watching this community - you guys are the only "headless" metalayer, lacking a founder or team and yet delivering with real working software.   

Keep up the good work

+10, thank you very much.

I had no.....

massive cut

....mining altcoin don't become THE FUTURE.

I personally believe ....

massive cut....

Energy efficiency over Bitcoin is a valid point.  Saying switching to NXT is going to Save The World is a stretch.  We should not go there.

Ricky, unique.....If we are going to debate personal politics, here is so not the right place.
I think you guys and I are probably in the same camp on these issues, but GW is simply too damn emotive an issue to allow into this thread.
Head for off-topic section if we must have a NXT + GW debate. Or religion, or politics....

NXT is a currency (and it's associated eco-system) Like it or not, everyone (left/right/whatever) can use it for their own purposes.
One of the coolest aspects of the NXT community is how a wide variety of people are working together on a collective project. We don't need to agree with each other......so:

NO BLOODY GLOBAL WARMING DEBATE. NOT HERE. Please.   

I am dissapointed EvilDave, I tend to love your input here, but caving to ignorance is sad to see.
This is again: NOT A MATTER OF POLITICS.
Would you really say the same if we were talking about gravity? OH NO ITS TOO HOT OF AN ISSUE. No fuck that, idiots are the ones generating heat (ironically also global warming in this debate.


Like I have said: I approach this from a marketing perspective and if you want to double check it then just google: EMISSIONS + Bitcoin. This is a *hot* topic right now and it is beyond idiotic of us to not take advantage of this oppourtunity to show how NXT isn't just a better ecosystem than Bitcoin, but it is actually kind of *needed*

Comparing science to debates about religion and politics is just down right dumb.
And like I have said several times already: this is one of the reasons we need to start using one of the nxt forums, where we can have categories.

Having one infinite thread where everything is discussed means that religious people cannot ignore the fossil record and so they get emotional.

We are already using the biggest NXT forum over at nextcoin.org, but sadly all the "official" decisions is still being drawn here, which is dumb as fuck and undemocratic, so sadly we *have* to post these matters here if we are to get the funding to make these marketing projects.

[Uniqueorn]

You're being condescending to a large part of the Nxt community, which is unhelpful in any discussion.  My opinion is that GW should be left out of Nxt marketing.  Discussing the fact that Nxt is energy efficient should be promoted though.

I am being condescending to those who are disrespectful to the people who have devoted their entire lifes to seek the truth and illuminate the public about this. Yes. I am 100% proud of being condescending towards those people.
This is not a matter of politics and opinions, this is a matter of life and death for MILLIONS of people in this world, today, not some projected dystopian future scenario. This is occuring today!

If you do not accept science as a GPS then wtf do you accept? Your own fantasy? Then you are a solipsist.


AND AGAIN: I AM NOT THE ONE who wanted drama. I am simply stating the current state of science and highlighting how we can gain a HUGE marketing advantage due to it.
If we send the math to different sci and tech magazines they will run a lot of stories comparing NXT to Bitcoin in the grand scheme of things.
If you google Bitcoin + emissions you will see that there are already hundreds of articles on this. How the fuck are we going to turn down that oppourtunity due to a few ignorants?

Are we going to become the CyberWallstreet? Devoid of morals and only caring about our own wallets? Am I the only one here who actually cares about NXTs potential to make a huge impact on the worlds economy and environment?

Alright, this is all I'm going to say on the subject. Global warming is based on a small snapshot of data, just as global cooling was in the 70's. Zoom the data out using ice cores and rock samples, and it becomes clear this is a natural cycle and the Earth is far cooler than it has been in the past while supporting life. Global warming alarmist ignore the expansion of the ice shelves the last few years and that global avreage temperature has actually been cooler, because it doesn't fit their need for a crisis. Less than 40 years ago we thought the world was going to freeze, now we think it's going to burn up? I'm all for conservation and reducing our footprint, but stop screaming that the sky is falling. It isn't.

Humans have released about 4% of the Earth's CO2 through our entire existence. Cows.....yes, cows release more CO2 per year than humans.

Every generation needs a crisis, and this is ours. Global Warming is an industry, not reality.

And since you bring up cows, the biggest problem with cows is methane, not CO2 This is 5th grade science man.
And again: who invented the system of livestock ? Humans. Do you really think there was this many cows roaming around pre-the industrial era? lol

It's saddening to see that it seems almsot the majority of NXTers are living in the 18th century. Next thing you know evolution must be removed from our marketing. "Nono cant say NXT is the nxt generation in the evolution of cryptos, evolution is just a theory yo!!"

No shit? You just proved my point. Not one thing I said is a myth, study it. Notice how my post didn't get personal and didn't talk down on anyone. Your's on the other hand seeks to shout down honest debate with nothing but personal attacks.

Also, I believe in evolution, not creationism, I have looked at the data (Like the skewed graphs used to support it.....forget about those?) and not to mention the biggest thing to look into with ANY science.......who pays for the study. Once you know that, you know if it's junk.

This is cute. I correct your incorrect info about cows and CO2 and you try to play that card as a proof against the point I made
I will simply ignore your kind from now on

[DrearyUrbanite]

I would suggest one vote per IP address. I am a systems administrator by trade and could conceivably vote for many IP addresses but I would not. I don’t think very many in my position would either. I don’t think that multiple voters behind the same firewall would be much of an issue either. To me this seems a better solution to 1 NXT – 1 vote.

[ChuckOne]

I would suggest one vote per IP address. I am a systems administrator by trade and could conceivably vote for many IP addresses but I would not. I don’t think very many in my position would either. I don’t think that multiple voters behind the same firewall would be much of an issue either. To me this seems a better solution to 1 NXT – 1 vote.

I think that voting weights based on property is not fair. There would be nothing at stake, even with IP addresses.

Only when you pay more to get a higher weight is fair to me in the long run. Because, you sacrifice some wealth of yours to express your opinion. So, something is at stake now.

[martismartis]

I would suggest one vote per IP address. I am a systems administrator by trade and could conceivably vote for many IP addresses but I would not. I don’t think very many in my position would either. I don’t think that multiple voters behind the same firewall would be much of an issue either. To me this seems a better solution to 1 NXT – 1 vote.

What about wallets behind the router?

[DrearyUrbanite]

Maybe I’m wrong but I would think that in most cases, wallets behind the same router would most likely be owned by the same person.

[CIYAM]

We are drifting off topic - points about political issues I think should probably handled elsewhere.

It is pretty obvious we are simply *not* going to agree on a single VS idea - so I think the best idea is to instead have a voting system that lets the creator of the vote choose the variables for the ballot.

This is not in any way trying to force *one* way to do votes - there should be many ways and we should play them all out before trying to judge any as being "unfair" or "wrong".