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Author Topic: [CLOSED] BTC Guild - Pays TxFees+NMC, Stratum, VarDiff, Private Servers  (Read 877618 times)
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MoreBloodWine
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June 15, 2014, 04:24:19 AM
 #7101

Well, maybe when Michael gets on he'll chime in but I agree that a lot of the smaller miners would stay as well as the larger ones. That aside though, it would make life easier for users like me and you who just stick it out and ride the waves.
I agree.
It would definitely help so much.  Many smaller miners would more apt to stay mining as well if that was implemented.

He sort of states he fixed the issue but it seems we are having that terrible variance we had last time he was at BTCG.
and I come back to this... no rush on an answer from Michael but I do feel as I suspect others feel as well that this should try and be addressed a bit more, the issue that is.

Seeing as how if it is possible, would nip the problem in the ass.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=49417.msg7314921#msg7314921

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.rivetz.
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eleuthria
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June 15, 2014, 05:27:35 AM
 #7102

Regarding the hard fork to make block withholding impossible:  It will never happen.  AFAIK, that hard fork would also break all existing ASICs.

Granted, a hard fork does NOT need 51% mining power to be implemented.  What matters with a hard fork is the market (people who accept/trade Bitcoin) moves to the new fork.  But unless I'm mistaken, the secret data used to prevent block withholding would be incompatible with all existing mining hardware, which will immediately make such a fork very hard to achieve.  It would more likely kill BTC entirely due to the competing standards.



As for variance/luck/withholding:  I'm monitoring closely users with bad share/block ratios.  Unfortunately, there's really not much else I can do.  It was around June 9th we had a pretty big dive.  But then we had a decent rise that roughly offset it before going into 3 days of consecutive very poor luck, caused mostly be a few 5 and 6 hour rounds.  However, the pool was at 96.8% luck for the last month before the dive, and rising.  99% is "neutral" in the sense of expectation, since you would expect a ~1% orphan rate which means 100% is actually slightly lucky.

The pool has not grown significantly, nor has the difficulty risen in the last 3 days.  The current dip appears to be luck, not withholding, based on the fact that the long rounds mean all the prior speed (11-12 PH/s), which was performing right within expectation for most the last month, weren't finding blocks for 5-6 hours along with the new speed that joined.
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June 15, 2014, 09:21:46 AM
 #7103

<tinfoil hat on>

Eleuthria: would you be able to detect a subtle control of the Blockchain (post >51% attack) whereby a controlling entity would selectively use their version of the Blockchain to pick and choose blocks/solutions that were "close" for them time-wise so as to reduce glaring evidence when those stolen blocks start showing up as orphans on the pools that should have taken credit for them normally?  Like, for a big enough competing pool with usually low variance, would the rise in orphan rate be the only evidence of this or is there something else that would be visible?

The reason I ask: it's interesting that BTCGuild and many other large pools and some of the prominent (visibility wise if not in hashrate) but much smaller pools like P2pool have had simultaneous relatively large streaks of bad luck, at the same time, right as the CEX.io/GHash.io 51% fears have arisen again.  

Also could this type of attack be achieved, considering the attacker has a sizeable portion of its hashrate by way of its own private farm, even if it divests some of that hashpower into more veiled sub-pools (not on GHash.io directly for instance)?  So essentially the Bitcoin Mining equivalent of setting up dummy corporations so as to reduce suspicions by reducing their visible hashrate to below 51%, but still have control via let's say of hundreds of automatically generated mini-pools that would register as Unknown to the usual pool tracking sites? Would they still be able to steer the Blockchain at their whim?

</tinfoil hat off>

DPoS2
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June 15, 2014, 03:41:29 PM
 #7104

Regarding the hard fork to make block withholding impossible:  It will never happen.  AFAIK, that hard fork would also break all existing ASICs.




they should be broken and the game needs a reset..  majority of the players are corrupt anyway


even when the effect of the scamming was obvious to some, many kept blinders on... now the scammers will slice and dice their scamming to be less of a notice and the blind sheep will just moan about 90-95% luck and do shit about it

at least it isn't 80%


enjoy paying your honesty tax to the scammers

Sir Alan
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June 15, 2014, 07:50:59 PM
 #7105

they should be broken and the game needs a reset..  majority of the players are corrupt anyway

even when the effect of the scamming was obvious to some, many kept blinders on... now the scammers will slice and dice their scamming to be less of a notice and the blind sheep will just moan about 90-95% luck and do shit about it

at least it isn't 80%

enjoy paying your honesty tax to the scammers
... says the person with no ASICs to worry about.  What a happy little ray of sunshine you are.

1Eeyore17YeHrbJW5Q3pSdV8sXujkdrrFc
Trongersoll
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June 15, 2014, 08:56:57 PM
 #7106

My two Satoshi.

if you really think that the pool you are on is being short changed, move to another pool, for the little guys the payout should be close to the same.

If you feel that all the pools are being short changed, <sarcasm on>then solo mine<sarcasm off>. It is better to get short changed than nothing at all?

or, start your own pool so that you know no one is getting short changed.

or, sell your miners and buy bitcoins, that is supposed to be the best bet anyway.
atadro
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June 15, 2014, 09:25:52 PM
 #7107

Regarding the hard fork to make block withholding impossible:  It will never happen.  AFAIK, that hard fork would also break all existing ASICs.

Granted, a hard fork does NOT need 51% mining power to be implemented.  What matters with a hard fork is the market (people who accept/trade Bitcoin) moves to the new fork.  But unless I'm mistaken, the secret data used to prevent block withholding would be incompatible with all existing mining hardware, which will immediately make such a fork very hard to achieve.  It would more likely kill BTC entirely due to the competing standards.



As for variance/luck/withholding:  I'm monitoring closely users with bad share/block ratios.  Unfortunately, there's really not much else I can do.  It was around June 9th we had a pretty big dive.  But then we had a decent rise that roughly offset it before going into 3 days of consecutive very poor luck, caused mostly be a few 5 and 6 hour rounds.  However, the pool was at 96.8% luck for the last month before the dive, and rising.  99% is "neutral" in the sense of expectation, since you would expect a ~1% orphan rate which means 100% is actually slightly lucky.

The pool has not grown significantly, nor has the difficulty risen in the last 3 days.  The current dip appears to be luck, not withholding, based on the fact that the long rounds mean all the prior speed (11-12 PH/s), which was performing right within expectation for most the last month, weren't finding blocks for 5-6 hours along with the new speed that joined.

Are these known miners with known 'issues' back at BTCGuild?  If so, are they currently getting full payouts by the guild?  Did they previously get full payouts?
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June 15, 2014, 10:30:27 PM
 #7108

So any miner can join the pool and screw shit up? And how do they accomplish this? Aren't there triggers that go off when it starts to happen? And I tried going back multiple pages and can't find anything about what's really going on or happened.


Need help with your Newznab usenet indexer? http://www.newznabforums.com
guytechie
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June 16, 2014, 01:01:58 AM
 #7109

Anyone seen this?  Specifically the block withholding attack at the bottom of the roundup.

http://www.coindesk.com/mining-roundup-bbb-warning-alpha-technology-pool-attack/

Put something in my tip jar if I made your day. Smiley
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xstr8guy
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June 16, 2014, 02:52:32 AM
 #7110

Anyone seen this?  Specifically the block withholding attack at the bottom of the roundup.

http://www.coindesk.com/mining-roundup-bbb-warning-alpha-technology-pool-attack/


It's been the topic of conversation for quite some time.
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June 16, 2014, 05:28:03 AM
 #7111

I clicked back in the thread to 05-10-14 (3 months back from 8-10-14) and didn't see any mentioned to the withholding attack.  Is there a separate thread detailing this discovery?

A lot of the discussion ended up off thread because Micheal censored it (before discovering a giant obvious source of the problem when he actually bothered to check).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=597112.0

All the evidence suggests there is a lot more going on than this one player in China who is taking the heat at the moment.

I stick with what I said over a month ago.  If stratum isn't revised so that pools can validate the integrity of the workers they are paying, pool mining is doomed.  We switched pools as a first response to the issue, but now that pool has some extremely suspicious users, so now I am leaning toward going solo.
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June 16, 2014, 06:00:08 AM
 #7112

This isn't meant to be a negative but people don't generally invest more time or money in to something that what they feel isn't required until something like everyone leaving happens which in this case never will because some people just accept stuff for what it is when it isn't which with shit like luck is easily argued away with luck being what it is by nature.

Stupid ass analogy but...

Here's a paper bag for your groceries, we could have opted for plastic which is generally stronger but we wanted to save the store som money. Just be careful with the paper and it shouldn't rip thus dropping your groceries all over the ground.

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.rivetz.
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Entropy-uc
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June 16, 2014, 06:33:14 AM
 #7113

This isn't meant to be a negative but people don't generally invest more time or money in to something that what they feel isn't required until something like everyone leaving happens which in this case never will because some people just accept stuff for what it is when it isn't which with shit like luck is easily argued away with luck being what it is by nature.

Stupid ass analogy but...

Here's a paper bag for your groceries, we could have opted for plastic which is generally stronger but we wanted to save the store som money. Just be careful with the paper and it shouldn't rip thus dropping your groceries all over the ground.

This situation is more like the grocery store pouring the milk you purchased into a paper bag and then getting indignant when you ask where the all the milk you paid for went.

Eluethria admits that this one group was stripping around 20% of earnings from every participant in the pool for over a month but he hasn't done anything to recover funds and compensate those that were cheated.

MoreBloodWine
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June 16, 2014, 07:41:25 AM
 #7114

I can't speak anything to compensation obviously but what can he really do to recover ?

I mean, lets say I steal money from a bank. I hide it really well, sure I go to jail buy unless some dumb ass stumbles upon my stash which doesn't apply to this situation, the money will always remain un-recovered. Point being there's nothing he can really do to reover anything.
This isn't meant to be a negative but people don't generally invest more time or money in to something that what they feel isn't required until something like everyone leaving happens which in this case never will because some people just accept stuff for what it is when it isn't which with shit like luck is easily argued away with luck being what it is by nature.

Stupid ass analogy but...

Here's a paper bag for your groceries, we could have opted for plastic which is generally stronger but we wanted to save the store som money. Just be careful with the paper and it shouldn't rip thus dropping your groceries all over the ground.

This situation is more like the grocery store pouring the milk you purchased into a paper bag and then getting indignant when you ask where the all the milk you paid for went.

Eluethria admits that this one group was stripping around 20% of earnings from every participant in the pool for over a month but he hasn't done anything to recover funds and compensate those that were cheated.



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.rivetz.
..DECENTRALIZED & MOBILE CYBER SECURITY TOKEN..
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Sir Alan
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June 16, 2014, 10:34:16 AM
 #7115

I think the site's FAQ needs updating, as the following is no longer quite true, one confirmation now being required since the demise of PPS:
Quote
BTC Guild's PPLNS system does not require block confirmations for blocks to apply

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nbtcminer
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June 16, 2014, 02:37:12 PM
 #7116

Is nothing being done to get back the money stolen by 17JkL94B2ngJg4QQZuiozDQjnxXB6B7yTc and 1Gu8zxRi8cyENV8CQe52D7QEsiZ7ruT73u? Or did we just get screwed for the last few weeks?
Entropy-uc
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June 16, 2014, 03:00:56 PM
 #7117

I can't speak anything to compensation obviously but what can he really do to recover ?

I mean, lets say I steal money from a bank. I hide it really well, sure I go to jail buy unless some dumb ass stumbles upon my stash which doesn't apply to this situation, the money will always remain un-recovered. Point being there's nothing he can really do to reover anything.

A start would be to refund all the fees collected for the period in question.  Michael was asleep at the switch so he didn't earn his cut.  Well maybe he was asleep, it's strange that he removed PPS in the same time frame, guaranteeing that he wouldn't take losses even if his users did.

Sincd (one of) the offender(s) are still mining at BTCguild current earning could be seized just like Eligius has done.
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June 16, 2014, 04:03:17 PM
 #7118

I just found this thread,
and will go to the site to read and just try if I was interested in this

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June 16, 2014, 07:13:59 PM
 #7119

There's a lot of accusations flying around here.  Now IIRC the issue was that some big miners did not appear to be pulling their weight in terms of blocks solved against hash power, and this turned out to be a previously undetected flaw in the software which resulted in results not being submitted.  After they were suspended and investigated, it seems the error was found and corrected and they are now mining again.  If that is actually what happened, then they have not stolen anything.  OK, they may have inadvertently diluted everybody's earnings, but that is not theft;  one could argue that they were suffering as well by not getting their share of any blocks they should have declared.  If I'm wrong (and I really can't be bothered to go back and read all through it again) then I'm sure somebody will put me right.

Do you know for certain whether your own mining rigs are submitting results correctly?  I certainly don't, and I doubt that you do, for with the difficulty at its current level most small miners are now unlikely ever to solve a block, and any fault won't show up statistically.  But even knowing that you are probably only taking and not giving, you are presumably happy to accept a share of the pool.  Are you stealing from the other pool members?  I think not - after all, that's why we joined the pool.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing when apportioning blame.

1Eeyore17YeHrbJW5Q3pSdV8sXujkdrrFc
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June 16, 2014, 07:16:16 PM
 #7120

There's a lot of accusations flying around here.  Now IIRC the issue was that some big miners did not appear to be pulling their weight in terms of blocks solved against hash power, and this turned out to be a previously undetected flaw in the software which resulted in results not being submitted.  After they were suspended and investigated, it seems the error was found and corrected and they are now mining again.  If that is actually what happened, then they have not stolen anything.  OK, they may have inadvertently diluted everybody's earnings, but that is not theft;  one could argue that they were suffering as well by not getting their share of any blocks they should have declared.  If I'm wrong (and I really can't be bothered to go back and read all through it again) then I'm sure somebody will put me right.

Do you know for certain whether your own mining rigs are submitting results correctly?  I certainly don't, and I doubt that you do, for with the difficulty at its current level most small miners are now unlikely ever to solve a block, and any fault won't show up statistically.  But even knowing that you are probably only taking and not giving, you are presumably happy to accept a share of the pool.  Are you stealing from the other pool members?  I think not - after all, that's why we joined the pool.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing when apportioning blame.
+++++ my 1
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