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Author Topic: [CLOSED] BTC Guild - Pays TxFees+NMC, Stratum, VarDiff, Private Servers  (Read 828419 times)
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hurricandave
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May 07, 2014, 10:21:58 PM
 #6901

I want to reserve the right to say firstly, its only an argument based on a presumption that is precluded by "without any malice".......and that part is yet to be determined ... yes?
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eleuthria
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May 07, 2014, 10:31:34 PM
 #6902

I want to reserve the right to say firstly, its only an argument based on a presumption that is precluded by "without any malice".......and that part is yet to be determined ... yes?

Unfortunately proving "without any malice" is similar to proving a negative.  But all signs point to it NOT being malicious, given the user has been in communication with me.  Only issue is time zones so there's long gaps in communications.  If it was malicious, they'd have no reason to get in touch with me.  A malicious user of that size would already have known they were hurting themselves financially by doing the attack.  Resuming the attack with proxies and new accounts would be a drop in the bucket compared to the income they were sacrificing already.

R.I.P. BTC Guild, 2011 - 2015.
BTC Guild Forum Thread
BrandonMcPherson
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May 07, 2014, 10:49:54 PM
 #6903

As one of the loudest voices accusing DPoS of pointlessly crying wolf, I wanted to publicly apologize for doing so.

Also, thanks to Eleuthria for doing the sleuthing to find the problem. I realize it's an ongoing issue and not necessarily settled, but I wanted to own up to being reactionary while the broader issue was still being discussed.
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May 07, 2014, 11:15:07 PM
 #6904

I don't think the user owes anyone anything or is liable if it was an honest mistake. The only way they would be liable financially is if they knowingly stole from or sabotaged the pool, which is unlikely considering the fact that they were also hurt financially.

This must have been a very large farm in order to hurt BtcGuild by 10 to 15%, so it's very unlikely that they would also want to reduce their own earnings by that amount on purpose.

eleuthria, is there any reliable way to flag and deal with this type of issue sooner in the future? I assume it must be fairly obvious for very large farms.
Soros Shorts
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May 07, 2014, 11:24:14 PM
 #6905

I don't think the user owes anyone anything or is liable if it was an honest mistake. The only way they would be liable financially is if they knowingly stole from or sabotaged the pool, which is unlikely considering the fact that they were also hurt financially.

The corollary to what you said is that they still got paid for performing shoddy work which was worth exactly nothing. That doesn't sound right to me, even if it was an honest mistake.
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May 07, 2014, 11:32:46 PM
 #6906

I don't think the user owes anyone anything or is liable if it was an honest mistake. The only way they would be liable financially is if they knowingly stole from or sabotaged the pool, which is unlikely considering the fact that they were also hurt financially.

The corollary to what you said is that they still got paid for performing shoddy work which was worth exactly nothing. That doesn't sound right to me, even if it was an honest mistake.
Read the BTCGuild small print.  Oh right, there isn't any.  I think the best "we", (meaning Eleuthria), can do is figure out exactly what happened, and work to make sure it doesn't happen again.  Live and learn as they say.  If it's cost someone thousands in lost earnings it's all proportional to the couple of hundred bucks it might have cost me.
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May 07, 2014, 11:58:20 PM
 #6907

I don't think the user owes anyone anything or is liable if it was an honest mistake. The only way they would be liable financially is if they knowingly stole from or sabotaged the pool, which is unlikely considering the fact that they were also hurt financially.
As I said a few days ago, an act of malice cannot be ruled out. If you are a large enough miner on a large enough pool, you can sacrifice finding a few blocks to still make profit and prevent contributing to diff rise..

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kendog77
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May 08, 2014, 12:08:25 AM
 #6908

I don't think the user owes anyone anything or is liable if it was an honest mistake. The only way they would be liable financially is if they knowingly stole from or sabotaged the pool, which is unlikely considering the fact that they were also hurt financially.
As I said a few days ago, an act of malice cannot be ruled out. If you are a large enough miner on a large enough pool, you can sacrifice finding a few blocks to still make profit and prevent contributing to diff rise..

That argument makes zero economic sense. Suppose a miner is large enough to make up 10% of BtcGuild, and suppose BtcGuild is 10% of the network for simplicity sake.

The miner would be sacrificing 10% of their earnings to keep the overall BTC difficulty from going up an additional 1%.

I don't buy it.

I could see a very large miner doing this if they wanted to kill a PPS pool and direct users to their own pool (ghash.io???).
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May 08, 2014, 12:09:36 AM
 #6909

I don't think the user owes anyone anything or is liable if it was an honest mistake. The only way they would be liable financially is if they knowingly stole from or sabotaged the pool, which is unlikely considering the fact that they were also hurt financially.

This must have been a very large farm in order to hurt BtcGuild by 10 to 15%, so it's very unlikely that they would also want to reduce their own earnings by that amount on purpose.

eleuthria, is there any reliable way to flag and deal with this type of issue sooner in the future? I assume it must be fairly obvious for very large farms.

The probability this was an honest mistake is zero.

You have a group with more than a petahash that suddenly decided to pool mine and they solve no blocks for a month.  A petahash is not brought online overnight.  There were certainly mining solo before this, and discovered problems with solo mining.  There is absolutely no reason for such a large operation to pay pool fees.

Further, Michael since you are listening now, you should realize that cockroaches never appear alone.  Dig deeper and you will find more problems.  We pulled out of your pool over a month ago because the bad luck was statistically unbelievable then.  This is not the only cheater in play.
Minor Miner
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May 08, 2014, 12:20:08 AM
 #6910

I don't think the user owes anyone anything or is liable if it was an honest mistake. The only way they would be liable financially is if they knowingly stole from or sabotaged the pool, which is unlikely considering the fact that they were also hurt financially.
As I said a few days ago, an act of malice cannot be ruled out. If you are a large enough miner on a large enough pool, you can sacrifice finding a few blocks to still make profit and prevent contributing to diff rise..
That argument makes zero economic sense. Suppose a miner is large enough to make up 10% of BtcGuild, and suppose BtcGuild is 10% of the network for simplicity sake.
The miner would be sacrificing 10% of their earnings to keep the overall BTC difficulty from going up an additional 1%.
I don't buy it.
I could see a very large miner doing this if they wanted to kill a PPS pool and direct users to their own pool.
The only way it makes sense to be malicious is if michael is wrong and there is not just a simple software fix to allow the freerider to start solving blocks again.   Personally, I find it hard to believe they did not know their machines were firing blanks.  I though that some dark miner (likely solo mining) found out their equipment was not solving blocks but generating valid hashes.   So, they went to the largest pools where they could hide and still get money from their useless hashes.
In my scenario, we all need to worry and that is why I want to know who it is and I want to see some type of proof that they fixed their firmware. 

too many grasshoppers, not enough ants
kendog77
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May 08, 2014, 12:31:59 AM
 #6911

I don't think the user owes anyone anything or is liable if it was an honest mistake. The only way they would be liable financially is if they knowingly stole from or sabotaged the pool, which is unlikely considering the fact that they were also hurt financially.

This must have been a very large farm in order to hurt BtcGuild by 10 to 15%, so it's very unlikely that they would also want to reduce their own earnings by that amount on purpose.

eleuthria, is there any reliable way to flag and deal with this type of issue sooner in the future? I assume it must be fairly obvious for very large farms.

The probability this was an honest mistake is zero.

You have a group with more than a petahash that suddenly decided to pool mine and they solve no blocks for a month.  A petahash is not brought online overnight.  There were certainly mining solo before this, and discovered problems with solo mining.  There is absolutely no reason for such a large operation to pay pool fees.

Further, Michael since you are listening now, you should realize that cockroaches never appear alone.  Dig deeper and you will find more problems.  We pulled out of your pool over a month ago because the bad luck was statistically unbelievable then.  This is not the only cheater in play.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

I suspect they knew they had a problem, but I doubt they had any clue how to fix it.
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May 08, 2014, 12:33:57 AM
 #6912

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Great quote, but we've already seen enough stupidity in bitcoin and we're about due for some more malice...

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ak49er
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May 08, 2014, 12:47:38 AM
 #6913

I suspect they knew they had a problem, but I doubt they had any clue how to fix it.
Very possible.  In which case it was with ill intent that they moved their hash power to pools from solo mining.  And now that they know the fix they'll simply thank us and go back to solo mining. Cheesy

Either way I think there's little that can be done.  And I for one am not going to demand their heads on a silver platter.
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May 08, 2014, 12:53:04 AM
 #6914

I suspect they knew they had a problem, but I doubt they had any clue how to fix it.
Either way I think there's little that can be done.  And I for one am not going to demand their heads on a silver platter.

What kind of bitcoiner are you?  Don't you know that in these parts, everybody is all pro-anonymity...until you don't like them, in which case it's only reasonable to demand that a user's information be given out publicly to an angry mob?

R.I.P. BTC Guild, 2011 - 2015.
BTC Guild Forum Thread
ak49er
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May 08, 2014, 01:01:42 AM
 #6915

I suspect they knew they had a problem, but I doubt they had any clue how to fix it.
Either way I think there's little that can be done.  And I for one am not going to demand their heads on a silver platter.

What kind of bitcoiner are you?  Don't you know that in these parts, everybody is all pro-anonymity...until you don't like them, in which case it's only reasonable to demand that a user's information be given out publicly to an angry mob?
Maybe I should switch from bitcoin miner to pitchfork manufacturer? Grin
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May 08, 2014, 01:04:40 AM
 #6916

I suspect they knew they had a problem, but I doubt they had any clue how to fix it.
Either way I think there's little that can be done.  And I for one am not going to demand their heads on a silver platter.

What kind of bitcoiner are you?  Don't you know that in these parts, everybody is all pro-anonymity...until you don't like them, in which case it's only reasonable to demand that a user's information be given out publicly to an angry mob?
Maybe I should switch from bitcoin miner to pitchfork manufacturer? Grin
So long as you take preorders for forks at a price that never allow you to pick up enough hay to...

Primary developer/maintainer for cgminer and ckpool/ckproxy.
Pooled mine at kano.is, solo mine at solo.ckpool.org
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ak49er
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May 08, 2014, 01:09:08 AM
 #6917

I suspect they knew they had a problem, but I doubt they had any clue how to fix it.
Either way I think there's little that can be done.  And I for one am not going to demand their heads on a silver platter.

What kind of bitcoiner are you?  Don't you know that in these parts, everybody is all pro-anonymity...until you don't like them, in which case it's only reasonable to demand that a user's information be given out publicly to an angry mob?
Maybe I should switch from bitcoin miner to pitchfork manufacturer? Grin
So long as you take preorders for forks that never allow you to pick up enough hay to...
Promise two tines and only deliver one?  And not until winter. Smiley
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May 08, 2014, 01:14:21 AM
 #6918

Or the winter after........ Wink

-- Smiley  Thank you for smoking  Smiley --  If you paid VAT to dogie for items you should read this thread:  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1018906.0
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May 08, 2014, 01:15:32 AM
 #6919

Or the winter after........ Wink

But still promise it in.... Two weeks.

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May 08, 2014, 02:07:48 AM
 #6920

Or the winter after........ Wink

But still promise it in.... Two weeks.


And Its ok If we are late because we have a Fork protection plan for added value
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