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Author Topic: [CLOSED] BTC Guild - Pays TxFees+NMC, Stratum, VarDiff, Private Servers  (Read 828772 times)
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hurricandave
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June 16, 2014, 07:16:16 PM
 #7121

There's a lot of accusations flying around here.  Now IIRC the issue was that some big miners did not appear to be pulling their weight in terms of blocks solved against hash power, and this turned out to be a previously undetected flaw in the software which resulted in results not being submitted.  After they were suspended and investigated, it seems the error was found and corrected and they are now mining again.  If that is actually what happened, then they have not stolen anything.  OK, they may have inadvertently diluted everybody's earnings, but that is not theft;  one could argue that they were suffering as well by not getting their share of any blocks they should have declared.  If I'm wrong (and I really can't be bothered to go back and read all through it again) then I'm sure somebody will put me right.

Do you know for certain whether your own mining rigs are submitting results correctly?  I certainly don't, and I doubt that you do, for with the difficulty at its current level most small miners are now unlikely ever to solve a block, and any fault won't show up statistically.  But even knowing that you are probably only taking and not giving, you are presumably happy to accept a share of the pool.  Are you stealing from the other pool members?  I think not - after all, that's why we joined the pool.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing when apportioning blame.
+++++ my 1
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eleuthria
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June 16, 2014, 07:26:28 PM
 #7122

There's a lot of accusations flying around here.  Now IIRC the issue was that some big miners did not appear to be pulling their weight in terms of blocks solved against hash power, and this turned out to be a previously undetected flaw in the software which resulted in results not being submitted.  After they were suspended and investigated, it seems the error was found and corrected and they are now mining again.  If that is actually what happened, then they have not stolen anything.  OK, they may have inadvertently diluted everybody's earnings, but that is not theft;  one could argue that they were suffering as well by not getting their share of any blocks they should have declared.  If I'm wrong (and I really can't be bothered to go back and read all through it again) then I'm sure somebody will put me right.

This is correct.  And the problem is, you CANNOT detect it early.  It's literally impossible.  Just like the pool can have rounds taking 5-8x difficulty worth of shares to solve a block, individual users do as well.  This means at current difficulty, you cannot even begin to SUSPECT a user until they have submitted ~60b shares without a solve.  And even then, it is absolutely possible that they are unlucky.  It only becomes likely something is wrong at the 80-90b share mark (and even that isn't proof, it just means the odds aren't good for simple bad luck).

The user that was not submitting blocks IS back on BTC Guild.  They have NOT been withholding blocks since their return.  There are more than the 2 accounts identified at Eligius involved.  Since they have come back, their expected blocks vs submitted blocks has been perfect (1 of the accounts is actually fairly far ahead of expectation).

R.I.P. BTC Guild, 2011 - 2015.
BTC Guild Forum Thread
hurricandave
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June 16, 2014, 08:34:25 PM
 #7123

If we look at Most Shares Submitted (All Time) under rankings, the number 25 contributor has ~65 billion as a reference point. That leaves a lot of catching up for many, many, others.
jonnybravo0311
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June 16, 2014, 09:32:16 PM
 #7124

Quote
OK, they may have inadvertently diluted everybody's earnings, but that is not theft;  one could argue that they were suffering as well by not getting their share of any blocks they should have declared.
This is the incorrect part of your statement.  The owners of those addresses were indeed profiting from their mining.  When somebody else in the pool found a block, the shares were paid out to all miners that had contributed, including the ones withholding blocks.

If it was indeed a coding error that was subsequently caught and fixed, the miner should return some portion of the proceeds they earned in error, since those earnings aren't rightfully theirs.  Instead, the owner of the addresses in question started a thread demanding that Eligius pay them over 200BTC, even after admitting their custom version of cgminer was faulty.

Jonny's Pool - Mine with us and help us grow!  Support a pool that supports Bitcoin, not a hardware manufacturer's pockets!  No SPV cheats.  No empty blocks.
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June 16, 2014, 09:53:33 PM
 #7125

If Eligius is withholding payment to this user (and rightfully so), will he redistribute those 200 BTC to the other members?

And what about here on BTC Guild?

I noticed luck has gone back up.  So was it really bad luck before, or was it an attack?

Put something in my tip jar if I made your day. Smiley
BTC:
1MkmBHDjonAFXui6JEx9ZmEemfMtUo9Cmu
eleuthria
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June 16, 2014, 09:55:04 PM
 #7126

If Eligius is withholding payment to this user (and rightfully so), will he redistribute those 200 BTC to the other members?

And what about here on BTC Guild?

I noticed luck has gone back up.  So was it really bad luck before, or was it an attack?

It was bad luck earlier this week.  But who knows, maybe yet another user is attacking (it isn't the previous withholders).  You can read above for why it's impossible to detect an attack unless it is sustained for long enough time to provide statistical anomalies for users.  But the bad luck spike we had lasted only a few days, and was caused by just a few very poor rounds.  The pattern does not fit an attack because we'd have a few normal length rounds, then one or two bad rounds, and then back to normal.  There weren't any significant speed fluctuations between those changes.

Eligius was able to hold 200 BTC hostage because Eligius does not pay out regularly.  BTC Guild pays out multiple times per hour.  Even if I froze the user's accounts, you'd get maybe a dozen, two dozen coins.  In return, you'd end up with some very pissed off people who already know how to weaponize their ASICs against a pool by simply reverting a patch.

R.I.P. BTC Guild, 2011 - 2015.
BTC Guild Forum Thread
os2sam
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June 16, 2014, 09:57:43 PM
 #7127

Now every time luck takes a dip it's going to be an attack.  That's just great.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
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June 16, 2014, 10:46:36 PM
 #7128

If Eligius is withholding payment to this user (and rightfully so), will he redistribute those 200 BTC to the other members?

And what about here on BTC Guild?

I noticed luck has gone back up.  So was it really bad luck before, or was it an attack?

It was bad luck earlier this week.  But who knows, maybe yet another user is attacking (it isn't the previous withholders).  You can read above for why it's impossible to detect an attack unless it is sustained for long enough time to provide statistical anomalies for users.  But the bad luck spike we had lasted only a few days, and was caused by just a few very poor rounds.  The pattern does not fit an attack because we'd have a few normal length rounds, then one or two bad rounds, and then back to normal.  There weren't any significant speed fluctuations between those changes.

Eligius was able to hold 200 BTC hostage because Eligius does not pay out regularly.  BTC Guild pays out multiple times per hour.  Even if I froze the user's accounts, you'd get maybe a dozen, two dozen coins.  In return, you'd end up with some very pissed off people who already know how to weaponize their ASICs against a pool by simply reverting a patch.

 but we know that this group did and they are currently mining on the pool.  there is the opportunity now to force them to make it right to you and us by withholding payouts - or they GTFO.
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June 17, 2014, 04:50:10 AM
 #7129

If Eligius is withholding payment to this user (and rightfully so), will he redistribute those 200 BTC to the other members?

And what about here on BTC Guild?

I noticed luck has gone back up.  So was it really bad luck before, or was it an attack?

Wizkid stated in the Eligius thread that he plans on paying the "shelved" shares from the time period of the withholding attack with the 225 BTC that was held from being distributed.
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June 17, 2014, 05:51:07 AM
 #7130

If Eligius is withholding payment to this user (and rightfully so), will he redistribute those 200 BTC to the other members?

And what about here on BTC Guild?

I noticed luck has gone back up.  So was it really bad luck before, or was it an attack?

Wizkid stated in the Eligius thread that he plans on paying the "shelved" shares from the time period of the withholding attack with the 225 BTC that was held from being distributed.
But how will be be determined who gets what ?

I've been mining BTCGuild for some time now and was quite active during the "attack".

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sconklin321
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June 17, 2014, 06:06:09 AM
 #7131

If Eligius is withholding payment to this user (and rightfully so), will he redistribute those 200 BTC to the other members?

And what about here on BTC Guild?

I noticed luck has gone back up.  So was it really bad luck before, or was it an attack?

Wizkid stated in the Eligius thread that he plans on paying the "shelved" shares from the time period of the withholding attack with the 225 BTC that was held from being distributed.
But how will be be determined who gets what ?

I've been mining BTCGuild for some time now and was quite active during the "attack".

That's what wizkid is doing on Eligius, if you mined there, you'd get paid for the shares that were shelved during that time frame until wizkid has paid out 225 BTC worth of shares.  Obiviously that doesn't apply here as this is BTC Guild.  Not sure what, if anything, eleuthria plans or can do?  I know someone said they wouldn't call it theft, but I don't know what else you would call it.  The miner got paid for shares that were worthless because their hardware/software had an error that prevented them from submitting solved blocks.  So they got paid, but could never actually contribute since there was a bug preventing it.  Intentionally or unintentionally, it's still theft.  It's kinda like shopping and putting something on the bottom of the shopping cart, but forgetting to pay for it on the way out.  If you don't return the item or pay for it when you notice, it's still theft.
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June 17, 2014, 06:23:19 AM
 #7132

Roughly how much power did this user have during the time-frame?  I think in another thread it was mentioned he had 2PH/s, which at that time was about 1/20th the total network.

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June 17, 2014, 07:19:45 AM
 #7133

11 blocks in ~5 hrs?  Shocked
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June 17, 2014, 07:22:42 AM
 #7134

11 blocks in ~5 hrs?  Shocked

Clearly a block withholding att--err, wait a minute...block producing attack?

R.I.P. BTC Guild, 2011 - 2015.
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Bitsaurus
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June 17, 2014, 08:33:14 AM
 #7135

11 blocks in ~5 hrs?  Shocked

Clearly a block withholding att--err, wait a minute...block producing attack?

Thank you may I have another.  Guess it was good timing I got my extra 25TH online yesterday!  I haven't seen a run like this for almost a month I think.

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June 17, 2014, 11:12:53 AM
 #7136

If Eligius is withholding payment to this user (and rightfully so), will he redistribute those 200 BTC to the other members?

And what about here on BTC Guild?

I noticed luck has gone back up.  So was it really bad luck before, or was it an attack?

Wizkid stated in the Eligius thread that he plans on paying the "shelved" shares from the time period of the withholding attack with the 225 BTC that was held from being distributed.
But how will be be determined who gets what ?

I've been mining BTCGuild for some time now and was quite active during the "attack".

That's what wizkid is doing on Eligius, if you mined there, you'd get paid for the shares that were shelved during that time frame until wizkid has paid out 225 BTC worth of shares.  Obiviously that doesn't apply here as this is BTC Guild.  Not sure what, if anything, eleuthria plans or can do?  I know someone said they wouldn't call it theft, but I don't know what else you would call it.  The miner got paid for shares that were worthless because their hardware/software had an error that prevented them from submitting solved blocks.  So they got paid, but could never actually contribute since there was a bug preventing it.  Intentionally or unintentionally, it's still theft.  It's kinda like shopping and putting something on the bottom of the shopping cart, but forgetting to pay for it on the way out.  If you don't return the item or pay for it when you notice, it's still theft.

since eleuthria continues to ignore direct questions regarding this group making restitution for the their admitted 'theft', it seems he is taking the position of just letting it go plus inviting them back.  i guess there is a first time for everything - i agree with the actions of luke-jr in the case of dealing with this mining group. 
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June 17, 2014, 05:37:36 PM
 #7137

if I can rent a rig mine with other people

RIP Miner
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June 18, 2014, 11:08:33 PM
 #7138

All right, WHO ATE ALL the Lucky Charms and put the empty box back in the pantry! Cry
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June 19, 2014, 01:50:41 AM
 #7139

All right, WHO ATE ALL the Lucky Charms and put the empty box back in the pantry! Cry
*Runs like hell...*

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June 19, 2014, 03:34:08 AM
 #7140

Could be worse.
I don't mind bad luck that is fine.  I am glad it is not block withholding anymore.
Heck with Lucky Charms it is time for Golden Grahams!!!


All right, WHO ATE ALL the Lucky Charms and put the empty box back in the pantry! Cry
*Runs like hell...*

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