[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin"

[dooglus]

Quick question:

I bought 1.5 CLAM from Polo and transferred it to my wallet... it is not staking either...

Do transferred coins have to go 510 confirmations to be considered 'mature' as well? ( for staking purposes )

The protocol allows you to stake a coin 4 hours after it was last transferred, but the wallet software won't try staking it until it has 510 confirmations.

I expect this is a bug, and have reported it as such:

https://github.com/nochowderforyou/clams/issues/13

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[dooglus]

Basically we set up a 'public' staking wallet ( controlled by a trusted member ) Everyone who wants to participate sends like 2 Clams to it.

Say 40 people send 2 clams each... that's 80 clams staking.... you must stake for x-amount of time then you can withdraw your 2 clams + 1/40th of the profit. Or roll it over... then start the next enrollment period...

Perhaps we have open enrollment on the last day of the month, then end at the last day of the next month....

What you all think?

I like the idea.

Unfortunately I don't think there's any way to make it zero-trust. You'll have to trust the person with your coins.

I don't see why you would have to have everyone contribute the same amount. Just keep track of how much each person has in their balance, and split all stakes in proportion to their balance. If you have 2 CLAM and I have 18, I get 90% of all stakes (lotto or otherwise) and you get 10%.

It would be worth limiting withdrawals I guess, because coins stake better when they're old, and servicing withdrawals kills their age.

[dooglus]

I like the idea.

Unfortunately I don't think there's any way to make it zero-trust. You'll have to trust the person with your coins.

I don't see why you would have to have everyone contribute the same amount. Just keep track of how much each person has in their balance, and split all stakes in proportion to their balance. If you have 2 CLAM and I have 18, I get 90% of all stakes (lotto or otherwise) and you get 10%.

It would be worth limiting withdrawals I guess, because coins stake better when they're old, and servicing withdrawals kills their age.

Really we're just talking about a web wallet I suppose.

Each user could have an option "share stakes" which lets them decide whether they're pooling their stakes or working alone. One consideration here is that I think it is possible to look a short distance into the future and see whether your coin is going to stake soon. I don't fully understand how it works, but I think the staking algorithm depends on a "stake modifier" which changes every 10 or so minutes based on recent block hashes - so we can't look very far ahead since we don't know future block hashes.

We would need to prevent people from checking "share" only when they're not about to "win"...

[phzi]

I think "pooled staking" is a bad idea.  One of the few good things about Proof of Stake is that there are no mining pools representing a massive portion of the network.

[seedtrue]

 

[phzi]

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?

[im]https://i.imgur.com/91vc5JS.png[/img]

Heh, nice.  How many addresses to you have your coins split across?  Trying to find a more optimal distribution for my stash right now.

[istvandv]

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?

[im]https://i.imgur.com/91vc5JS.png[/img]

Heh, nice.  How many addresses to you have your coins split across?  Trying to find a more optimal distribution for my stash right now.

i see 420 up to j
and polo up to 8

my guess at least 18 coin piles
wish i had as much clams to split up
i had 6.6 clams that staked after 5 days!   

[almightyruler]

Much like POW mining pools, I bet there would be some sort of way to do a CLAM POS staking lottery pool....

The trouble with this is that a pool "re"-centralizes what should be a decentralized operation, and it's worse than PoW. If an operator of a PoW pool goes rogue, miners may lose funds, but they stop sending shares; if the op goes rogue in a PoS pool (eg by disabling withdrawals) he retains a tremendous amount of PoS power, in perpetuity.

The other issue with a PoS pool is that you'd have to keep a large amount of your funds with a third party. With a PoW pool you can basically withdraw as fast as you mine.

And finally, if the op was able to modify the code the pool could choose to stake only when it's worth it. With such a large weight (balance) behind it there is a good chance the pool would win the majority of the lotto blocks, therefore, others have no choice but to join the pool, making the pool even stronger and more centralized, compounding the above issues...

tl;dr a rogue PoS pool op can 51% the network or run off with your funds

[Quantum12]

 I pointed 11mhz at the clam multipool for 48 hours

so far i have received 0.30 clams in total ,.. for 48 hours of 11 mhz?!?!?!?!??!?

seems an awfull waste of hash and electricity , was expecting a little more tbh ..

disappointed with pool although its premise seems a good idea..

Q

[ymod123]

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?

[im]https://i.imgur.com/91vc5JS.png[/img]

Heh, nice.  How many addresses to you have your coins split across?  Trying to find a more optimal distribution for my stash right now.

i see 420 up to j
and polo up to 8

my guess at least 18 coin piles
wish i had as much clams to split up
i had 6.6 clams that staked after 5 days!   

is it better to split your coins to many address?

[seedtrue]

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?

[im]https://i.imgur.com/91vc5JS.png[/img]

Heh, nice.  How many addresses to you have your coins split across?  Trying to find a more optimal distribution for my stash right now.

i see 420 up to j
and polo up to 8

my guess at least 18 coin piles
wish i had as much clams to split up
i had 6.6 clams that staked after 5 days!  

is it better to split your coins to many address?

I don't think so. The way I understand it(I could be completely wrong), the bigger the stack of clams, the more often it stakes. In my head I compared it to the real government-run lottery, if I had enough money for 7 tickets, would it be better to play the same numbers each day for a week, or play 7 different combos of numbers on the same day. Statistically, it should be the same right?


edit: I was just now considering the 510 confirm aspect. There has to be some amount where the stack size is "too big" for optimal staking. Even if you get stakes repeatedly for having a large stack, you still have to wait 510 confirms between stakes, so too big could be bad.

[istvandv]

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?

[im]https://i.imgur.com/91vc5JS.png[/img]

Heh, nice.  How many addresses to you have your coins split across?  Trying to find a more optimal distribution for my stash right now.

i see 420 up to j
and polo up to 8

my guess at least 18 coin piles
wish i had as much clams to split up
i had 6.6 clams that staked after 5 days!   

is it better to split your coins to many address?

if you have large amounts of clams... yes, its better to split them into multiple addresses

scenario 1:
1 address with 200 clams will stake almost immediately after 510 blocks or right after it matures
giving you interest of .1 - 1000 clams

scenario 2:
address 1 with 100 clams - gives you interest of .1 - 1000 clams after 510 confirms
address 2 with 100 clams - gives you interest of .1 - 1000 clams after 510 confirms

in scenario 2 you get .2 clams and two chances at the clam lottery

note: the clam wallet automatically splits/combines your clams depending on how long it has been since its last stake

[paulc010]

Hmmmm. Seems to me that anyone who got free clams own old, mature clams. The lottery now means that those lucky enough to have received free clams (and particularly those who got several piles) are the ones that are getting staking rewards frequently and who have a MUCH larger chance of winning a significant amount of CLAMS via the lottery...

Doesn't this, in effect, mean there's a huge barrier to entry into the CLAM lottery winners club? Probably not intended, but looking at screenshots on here I can't think of any other reason why those of us who bought their CLAMS are finding stake rewards so rare.

Happy to be corrected

[paulc010]

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?

Just worked mine out from last stake reward. 2mins/confirm on that.

[seedtrue]

Hmmmm. Seems to me that anyone who got free clams own old, mature clams. The lottery now means that those lucky enough to have received free clams (and particularly those who got several piles) are the ones that are getting staking rewards frequently and who have a MUCH larger chance of winning a significant amount of CLAMS via the lottery...

Doesn't this, in effect, mean there's a huge barrier to entry into the CLAM lottery winners club? Probably not intended, but looking at screenshots on here I can't think of any other reason why those of us who bought their CLAMS are finding stake rewards so rare.

Happy to be corrected

While I did receive multiple clams from different privkeys, all of my original clams were sent to the exchange for trading. I sent them all back to different addresses in my wallet once the trading slowed down. I do not have many that are more than a week old.

[paulc010]

Hmmmm. Seems to me that anyone who got free clams own old, mature clams. The lottery now means that those lucky enough to have received free clams (and particularly those who got several piles) are the ones that are getting staking rewards frequently and who have a MUCH larger chance of winning a significant amount of CLAMS via the lottery...

Doesn't this, in effect, mean there's a huge barrier to entry into the CLAM lottery winners club? Probably not intended, but looking at screenshots on here I can't think of any other reason why those of us who bought their CLAMS are finding stake rewards so rare.

Happy to be corrected

While I did receive multiple clams from different privkeys, all of my original clams were sent to the exchange for trading. I sent them all back to different addresses in my wallet once the trading slowed down. I do not have many that are more than a week old.

Well that's good to know A week old is likely right now to be significant compared to my clams that are only a couple of days old.

Now sitting back chillin' and staking my CLAMs

[istvandv]

Hmmmm. Seems to me that anyone who got free clams own old, mature clams. The lottery now means that those lucky enough to have received free clams (and particularly those who got several piles) are the ones that are getting staking rewards frequently and who have a MUCH larger chance of winning a significant amount of CLAMS via the lottery...

Doesn't this, in effect, mean there's a huge barrier to entry into the CLAM lottery winners club? Probably not intended, but looking at screenshots on here I can't think of any other reason why those of us who bought their CLAMS are finding stake rewards so rare.

Happy to be corrected

the free old clams have an advantage only on the first stake since it has an accumulated coin age

but after that first stake, the coin age resets and would be the same as those who bought their clams

[kbroadfoot]

I pointed 11mhz at the clam multipool for 48 hours

so far i have received 0.30 clams in total ,.. for 48 hours of 11 mhz?!?!?!?!??!?

seems an awfull waste of hash and electricity , was expecting a little more tbh ..

disappointed with pool although its premise seems a good idea..

Q

You will get more than one payment... even after you stop mining... it is an odd pool...

You are sort of 'spooling up'...

[Quantum12]

I pointed 11mhz at the clam multipool for 48 hours

so far i have received 0.30 clams in total ,.. for 48 hours of 11 mhz?!?!?!?!??!?

seems an awfull waste of hash and electricity , was expecting a little more tbh ..

disappointed with pool although its premise seems a good idea..

Q

You will get more than one payment... even after you stop mining... it is an odd pool...

You are sort of 'spooling up'...

thank for the reply guess i wait a little longer and see

Q

[ymod123]

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?

Just worked mine out from last stake reward. 2mins/confirm on that.

my confirmation is staking long too its been 5 hours now still not complete confirmed