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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1808262 times)
majamalu
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July 14, 2015, 05:59:24 AM
 #28761

I support Satoshi's ideas.

I have never heard that Satoshi propose exponential growth of block. (doubling size every 2 years)

that's a compromise Gavin did for you folk, Satoshi didn't support a limit at all.

The block size limit is a short term hack.  Someday we might get beyond such a limit, but it could be quite a while.  BIP100 looks promising though.

"a short term hack" is how I see it, what concerns me is developers appear to be leveraging it to push through other hacks. (hacking the hack - postponing indefinably until such time as other hard fork changes could be bundled in with this one.)

BIP100 is good in that it removes the hard fork limit, my reservations though are that it does nothing to erode the centralized control system that has evolved. I prefer Bib 101 as it implies some central gate keepers need to eat humble pie, however nether are my first choice.  

At this stage I'd like to start seeing more decentralized development, the notion that Bitcoin is resilient in that if the protocol is modified the ideals will never be eroded because it is open source and can be forked to keep the original intent appears to only be valid so long as we share the same motives as the centralized development team.

The very idea of forking that was originally proposed to protect Bitcoin Values was vehemently opposed by the centralized developers who expressed disdain that they were not consulted and their process for seeking permission to propose change was not adhere too, even going so far as calling the idea of forking to remove the hard limit a threat to the very success of bitcoin.

I think there is a distortion of perception and lack of empathy all round. ultimately it is the people who put economic energy into the idea that make it viable, and while developers are important, they are not the gods who conduct this experiment, its the people who put in their economic energy.


Amen. They can cry all they want; the economic majority will prevail.

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tvbcof
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July 14, 2015, 06:54:03 AM
 #28762

I support Satoshi's ideas.

I have never heard that Satoshi propose exponential growth of block. (doubling size every 2 years)

that's a compromise Gavin did for you folk, Satoshi didn't support a limit at all.

The block size limit is a short term hack.  Someday we might get beyond such a limit, but it could be quite a while.  BIP100 looks promising though.

"a short term hack" is how I see it, what concerns me is developers appear to be leveraging it to push through other hacks. (hacking the hack - postponing indefinably until such time as other hard fork changes could be bundled in with this one.)

BIP100 is good in that it removes the hard fork limit, my reservations though are that it does nothing to erode the centralized control system that has evolved. I prefer Bib 101 as it implies some central gate keepers need to eat humble pie, however nether are my first choice.  

At this stage I'd like to start seeing more decentralized development, the notion that Bitcoin is resilient in that if the protocol is modified the ideals will never be eroded because it is open source and can be forked to keep the original intent appears to only be valid so long as we share the same motives as the centralized development team.

The very idea of forking that was originally proposed to protect Bitcoin Values was vehemently opposed by the centralized developers who expressed disdain that they were not consulted and their process for seeking permission to propose change was not adhere too, even going so far as calling the idea of forking to remove the hard limit a threat to the very success of bitcoin.

I think there is a distortion of perception and lack of empathy all round. ultimately it is the people who put economic energy into the idea that make it viable, and while developers are important, they are not the gods who conduct this experiment, its the people who put in their economic energy.


Amen. They can cry all they want; the economic majority will prevail.

Suit yourself.  A subordinate chain ecosystem needs a reserve or balancing currency, but that doesn't need to be Bitcoin.  Go ahead and get everyone buying coffee and a grand total of 5 copies of the blockchain worldwide (assuming that the 'economic majority' will obtain the best coders money can buy) and we'll have no choice but to use something else.  To me that will be at the very worst a mixed blessing because Bitcoin itself has some serious inherent design deficiencies which makes it questionable about whether it really could be distributed and defensible over the long term even at the current 1MB setting.

I would still rather give Bitcoin a shot but every time one of you guys open your mouths it takes something away from my even wanting to.  I've still got a decent number of BTC but I'm pretty confident that I will have a window of opportunity to dump them off on imbeciles who think that making Bitcoin be the 'one-size-fits-all' has any long term hope at being anything worthwhile.


Zarathustra
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July 14, 2015, 08:06:36 AM
 #28763

I will delete this post. This is perhaps my last FYI to try to help the fools here.

The catalysts. Some years ago I independently happenstanced on (discovered) Martin Armstrong's 78.9 (79) year cycle of real estate (which I also correlated to technological unemployment cycles). So when I later discovered Armstrong's cycle models and that he had back tested them to the Athenian empire and before (even as far back as Mesopotamia), I'm keen to accept that such a cycle does exist. Armstrong is the largest hedge fund manager in history, formerly managing $3 trillion in Japanese sovereign funds before he got unintentionally entangled in the USA bankster's involved in the LTCM and Russian bonds scam via Republic bank which involved some of the funds he was managing. It is with this wealth that he compiled the massive $billion (in today's money) historical economics and natural phenomenon database that enable his supercomputer system to correlate and find these patterns and repeating cycles.

It is with this system that he has been accurately predicting everything since the 1980s without fail. In fact, I have predicted the past 4 major moves in the Bitcoin price employing his model, including my recent prediction in May that BTC would rise to $315 in June and July, then crash back down to below $150 for the Octoberish bottom.

This is it folks. Cash is king. Get out while you still can. This may be my last warning.


Your prediction will be wrong.

And I think his prediction will be correct. Anonymint has pin pointed the last 2 years or so of bitcoin movement better than anyone I know on this forum. With his help I sold before the dip to $150 and re-bought and sold again yesterday at $315. I think he should get much more credit. His macro economic predictions are probably also going to be correct. On the basis of Armstrongs models (who has been consistently correct for decades) I think it is very likely we have some very dark times ahead.

Armstrongs models ...

http://www.silverdoctors.com/martin-armstrong-the-stock-market-will-double-by-2015/

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
HarHarHar9965
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July 14, 2015, 08:21:53 AM
 #28764

I think Gold will carsh now i see in chart price want go to down same like bitcoin will goes down too

Gold is not going to crash for a couple decades, sure its position might weaken but if Gold crashes, people panic and the whole economy is damaged. Besides, Gold is also used for jewelry and that market is very big, constant trade taking place continuously. New people also keep investing in Gold, yes its position is weakening but crash is way overstated.
iCEBREAKER
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July 14, 2015, 10:54:48 AM
 #28765


[extensive wailing]


[gnashing of teeth]


The 1MB "short term hack" got Bitcoin to where it is today.

Go ahead and make all the noise you want.  Stamp your feet and hold your breath.

Enlist Reddit as your personal army.  Issue threats.  Spin up XT nodes.

It won't make a difference; the block size is staying at 1MB for the foreseeable future.

Nobody except your fellow Gavinistas cares how many times you fatuously repeat 'ZOMG TEMPORARY 1MB LIMIT IS TEMPORARY RAISE IT NOW.'


The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
Zarathustra
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July 14, 2015, 11:11:55 AM
 #28766


[extensive wailing]


[gnashing of teeth]


The 1MB "short term hack" got Bitcoin to where it is today.

Go ahead and make all the noise you want.  Stamp your feet and hold your breath.

Enlist Reddit as your personal army.  Issue threats.  Spin up XT nodes.

It won't make a difference; the block size is staying at 1MB for the foreseeable future.

Nobody except your fellow Gavinistas cares how many times you fatuously repeat 'ZOMG TEMPORARY 1MB LIMIT IS TEMPORARY RAISE IT NOW.'


It won't stay, because the Gavinistas are the majority and you represent a minority.

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
iCEBREAKER
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July 14, 2015, 11:32:46 AM
 #28767

The 1MB "short term hack" got Bitcoin to where it is today.

Go ahead and make all the noise you want.  Stamp your feet and hold your breath.

Enlist Reddit as your personal army.  Issue threats.  Spin up XT nodes.

It won't make a difference; the block size is staying at 1MB for the foreseeable future.

Nobody except your fellow Gavinistas cares how many times you fatuously repeat 'ZOMG TEMPORARY 1MB LIMIT IS TEMPORARY RAISE IT NOW.'


It won't stay, because the Gavinistas are the majority and you represent a minority.

Is that why Gavin's 20MB proposal got #REKT like Stannis at Winterfell?   Cheesy

The Gavinista's supposed numerical superiority is irrelevant, because they don't have as many Bitcoins as the 1MB defenders.

Even if they had more (and were willing to risk/spend/lose them), the leverage provided by the Gavincoin Short allows Team 1MB to survive extended siege by swarming plagues of redditards.

Make all the grandiose claims and populist appeals you wish.  Like you, they have no power here.

The Gavinistas will continue to discover what it means to attack a system that is defensible, diffuse, diverse, and resilient.

I hope these teachable moments will educate them on the principles of Bitcoin Sovereignty!   Smiley

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
NewLiberty
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July 14, 2015, 11:34:50 AM
 #28768


[extensive wailing]


[gnashing of teeth]


The 1MB "short term hack" got Bitcoin to where it is today.

Go ahead and make all the noise you want.  Stamp your feet and hold your breath.

Enlist Reddit as your personal army.  Issue threats.  Spin up XT nodes.

It won't make a difference; the block size is staying at 1MB for the foreseeable future.

Nobody except your fellow Gavinistas cares how many times you fatuously repeat 'ZOMG TEMPORARY 1MB LIMIT IS TEMPORARY RAISE IT NOW.'


It won't stay, because the Gavinistas are the majority and you represent a minority.

Democracy is over rated.

FREE MONEY1 Bitcoin for Silver and Gold NewLibertyDollar.com and now BITCOIN SPECIE (silver 1 ozt) shows value by QR
Bulk premiums as low as .0012 BTC "BETTER, MORE COLLECTIBLE, AND CHEAPER THAN SILVER EAGLES" 1Free of Government
hdbuck
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July 14, 2015, 11:49:06 AM
 #28769


[extensive wailing]


[gnashing of teeth]


The 1MB "short term hack" got Bitcoin to where it is today.

Go ahead and make all the noise you want.  Stamp your feet and hold your breath.

Enlist Reddit as your personal army.  Issue threats.  Spin up XT nodes.

It won't make a difference; the block size is staying at 1MB for the foreseeable future.

Nobody except your fellow Gavinistas cares how many times you fatuously repeat 'ZOMG TEMPORARY 1MB LIMIT IS TEMPORARY RAISE IT NOW.'


It won't stay, because the Gavinistas are the majority and you represent a minority.

Since when Bitcoin is about majority?!
iCEBREAKER
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July 14, 2015, 11:58:42 AM
 #28770

The 1MB "short term hack" got Bitcoin to where it is today.

Go ahead and make all the noise you want.  Stamp your feet and hold your breath.

Enlist Reddit as your personal army.  Issue threats.  Spin up XT nodes.

It won't make a difference; the block size is staying at 1MB for the foreseeable future.

Nobody except your fellow Gavinistas cares how many times you fatuously repeat 'ZOMG TEMPORARY 1MB LIMIT IS TEMPORARY RAISE IT NOW.'


It won't stay, because the Gavinistas are the majority and you represent a minority.

Since when Bitcoin is about majority?!

Since never. 

The Gavinistas, having badly lost the technical debate, are resorting to populist appeals in an attempt to demagogue the blocksize issue.

Poor DeathAndTaxes, he made killing the 1MB block the hill he would die on, and has been MIA since April.   What a try-hard!  Cheesy

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
Hueristic
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July 14, 2015, 01:22:59 PM
 #28771

Can someone explain clearly to me what is wrong with a dynamic blocksize with a exponential cost ratio?

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justusranvier
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July 14, 2015, 01:56:15 PM
 #28772

Can someone explain clearly to me what is wrong with a dynamic blocksize with a exponential cost ratio?
Who decides what parameters to use for the exponential cost ratio?
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July 14, 2015, 02:05:22 PM
 #28773

Speaking of zero hedge as an information source, which we don't really do at the moment, anyway, I found these two near perfect articles today:

This is about mining, but the author nearly completely understands that in general, the low interest rate and money expansion distorts both production, by focusing on the investments that has a long time interval between investment and finished consumer goods, and consumption, because the consumer due to low interest has exhausted his resources in advance, and is now in a consumption reduction mode:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-13/miners-buried-billions-debt-after-colossal-misjudgment-demand

And this, which reveals (to me, anyway) new details about the conditions in Argentina, and how the state's intervention in just about everything reduces productivity, running all kinds of value destructive enterprises, including the traditional export industries which are now unprofitable due to the managed peso dollar exchange rate. There is only one single important difference to conditions in greece, and that is that greece have relatively sound money. If anybody think that not joining the euro in 2001, but keeping the insane regulations, the outrageous spending on welfare, and the defense spendings, would change anything for the good, this article gives food for thought:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-13/argentina-model-greece


...and this one was an interesting cross-over for the Armstrong followers:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-14/bofa-stumped-fund-managers-have-highest-cash-levels-lehman-yet-nobody-selling

"The latest BofA Fund Managers Survey has left the report authors stumped: on one hand fund managers have the highest cash levels since Lehman at 5.5% (most since December 2008 and prior to that November 2001), which combined with a capitulation in risk appetite due to ongoing stress in Greece and China would suggest a screaming buy signal... but there is one problem: the same fund managers refuse to actually capitulate and sell, and as a result not only are bank longs at record highs, but equities remains solidly overowned but the group, offset by "protection" levels which are the highest since February 2008. In short, the current positioning is a "complete contrast to 2008.""

...

"In short: not only is everyone on the same side of the boat when it comes to underlying cash positioning, but this groupthink is doubled down as virtually everyone has all the same hedges.  If nothing else, this explains why even on down days volume lately has been anemic (we know "up" volume barely exists): the smart money no longer sells at all but merely buy index puts."


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July 14, 2015, 02:15:34 PM
 #28774

Is that why Gavin's 20MB proposal got #REKT like Stannis at Winterfell?   Cheesy

The douchechills emanating from that statement are unbearable.
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July 14, 2015, 02:27:03 PM
 #28775

(Matonis is clueless to claim there is a fee-market - though my estimation of him is now down to zero as he talks about monkeying with the 21M limit).
+KB blocks now.

yep. 

his whole thesis is, "ZOMG, if we yield on the block size limit, it's a foregone conclusion we'll get a supply increase!"

furtheremore, listening to him dissemble over the technicalities of the block size limit is painful to listen to.  as little understanding as iCEBlow.
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July 14, 2015, 02:28:32 PM
 #28776

i'll be offline for the next 3d camping.  have fun with your new Master "iCEBlow"  et al!

2d without your FUD and bitcoin is at $318.


BOO!!!




as someone said on Reddit, your willingness to connect two dots is astounding.
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July 14, 2015, 02:31:18 PM
 #28777

As gmax quipped, "the attack is actually much less effective against the network itself than it is against the forums."

this is all gmax does these days; quip. 

there is no way he would ever change the block size limit when push comes to shove.  that's b/c his $21M blinders will make him see nothing more than roses.
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July 14, 2015, 03:05:07 PM
 #28778

I support Satoshi's ideas.

I have never heard that Satoshi propose exponential growth of block. (doubling size every 2 years)

that's a compromise Gavin did for you folk, Satoshi didn't support a limit at all.

The block size limit is a short term hack.  Someday we might get beyond such a limit, but it could be quite a while.  BIP100 looks promising though.

"a short term hack" is how I see it, what concerns me is developers appear to be leveraging it to push through other hacks. (hacking the hack - postponing indefinably until such time as other hard fork changes could be bundled in with this one.)

BIP100 is good in that it removes the hard fork limit, my reservations though are that it does nothing to erode the centralized control system that has evolved. I prefer Bib 101 as it implies some central gate keepers need to eat humble pie, however nether are my first choice.  

At this stage I'd like to start seeing more decentralized development, the notion that Bitcoin is resilient in that if the protocol is modified the ideals will never be eroded because it is open source and can be forked to keep the original intent appears to only be valid so long as we share the same motives as the centralized development team.

The very idea of forking that was originally proposed to protect Bitcoin Values was vehemently opposed by the centralized developers who expressed disdain that they were not consulted and their process for seeking permission to propose change was not adhere too, even going so far as calling the idea of forking to remove the hard limit a threat to the very success of bitcoin.

I think there is a distortion of perception and lack of empathy all round. ultimately it is the people who put economic energy into the idea that make it viable, and while developers are all important, they are not the gods who conduct this experiment, its the people who put in there economic energy.    

Your reasoning is interesting to me.  Mostly because your evaluation appears to contradict your conclusion.  And so, I suspect you have a some well thought out ideas and nuances that you've not yet communicated.

Both 100 and 101 provide a mechanism for more block size.  Choosing between the two may depend on your perspectives and assessment of different risk levels within the operating groups.

Do you see more centralized control among developers or miners?
- If development is more centralized, BIP100, (developers giving controls to miners).
- If mining is more centralized, BIP101, (developers retaining control over block size increases and schedules).

Both remain fairly centralized, though both are less so than they previously have been.  From your discourse, it would seem your evaluation would be the devs are more centralized and so would favor BIP100, (irrespective of who authored it).

my take on this is that BIP 101 would be more favorable b/c it doesn't involve "voting" twice, imo.  formal vote once and then again with the block versioning.  example might be they formally vote yes and then change their minds and vote no thru versioning for whatever reason.  giving miners that much say doesn't seem proportionate to everyone else's (nodes, merchants, users) participation.

i like 101 b/c it is automated and imo attempts to remove as much core dev decision making in the process.  knowing Gavin, he'd like to remove himself from the process as much as possible, except for routine maintenance on core.  he has the big picture and all his actions to date have demonstrated a willingness to let Bitcoin Run with a hands off approach as well as from a charity perspective as demonstrated by giving away 10000 BTC, Satoshi's trust in him, his refunding of BTCGuild for lost rewards from 0.8.1, and his overall demeanor and presentation.

personally, i like No Limit b/c of the free mkt dynamic it creates by placing all the control on to a user/miner negotiation.  miners have every incentive to prevent bloat and adverse network affects from that. 
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July 14, 2015, 03:08:49 PM
 #28779

The Gavinista's supposed numerical superiority is irrelevant, because they don't have as many Bitcoins as the 1MB defenders.

more blow from iCEBlow.
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July 14, 2015, 05:36:09 PM
 #28780


Make all the grandiose claims and populist appeals you wish.  Like you, they have no power here.

The Gavinistas will continue to discover what it means to attack a system that is defensible, diffuse, diverse, and resilient.

I hope these teachable moments will educate them on the principles of Bitcoin Sovereignty!   Smiley

If you're so sure about that, why did you chicken out when PeterR proposed the bet?

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