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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1805738 times)
iCEBREAKER
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July 11, 2015, 12:17:04 PM
 #28721

Frappuccino_doc's car insurance is about to go up.

Because the Gavinmobile just got wr3cked, again.   Tongue

Quote
Transaction Fee Market Develops Amid Surge in Transaction Volume
http://qntra.net/2015/07/transaction-fee-market-develops-amid-surge-in-transaction-volume/

The illusion that every coffee might end up on the blockchain has faded [this] week to reveal the glory of a robust, attack and censorship resistant settlement network of actual value.

EDIT: Great minds think alike:


The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
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cypherdoc
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July 11, 2015, 01:19:23 PM
 #28722

Frappuccino_doc's car insurance is about to go up.

Because the Gavinmobile just got wr3cked, again.   Tongue

Quote
Transaction Fee Market Develops Amid Surge in Transaction Volume
http://qntra.net/2015/07/transaction-fee-market-develops-amid-surge-in-transaction-volume/

The illusion that every coffee might end up on the blockchain has faded [this] week to reveal the glory of a robust, attack and censorship resistant settlement network of actual value.

EDIT: Great minds think alike:



lol, quoting Popescu?  what a joke:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3cs3q8/bitcoin_price_rallies_sharply_as_robust/

also, look thru the comments of that link you put.  even large tx's got held up for 12h or so.

Bitcoin is working despite you Cripplecoiners.  we'll never realize Bitcoin's true growth potential until we lift the limit.
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July 11, 2015, 01:23:04 PM
 #28723

Frappuccino_doc's car insurance is about to go up.

Because the Gavinmobile just got wr3cked, again.   Tongue

Quote
Transaction Fee Market Develops Amid Surge in Transaction Volume
http://qntra.net/2015/07/transaction-fee-market-develops-amid-surge-in-transaction-volume/

The illusion that every coffee might end up on the blockchain has faded [this] week to reveal the glory of a robust, attack and censorship resistant settlement network of actual value.

EDIT: Great minds think alike:



the saddest part of that article is here:

"This is exactly the point and the intent of Bitcoin : to force the poor to yield to the rich, universally, as a matter of course."

Cripplecoiners are going to be worse than our current financial elite.
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July 11, 2015, 01:24:00 PM
 #28724

i'll be offline for the next 3d camping.  have fun with your new Master "iCEBlow"  et al!
thezerg
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July 11, 2015, 01:52:29 PM
 #28725

iCEBREAKER makes 2 posts IN A ROW without ever realizing they espouse mutually incompatible futures for bitcoin.  The first talks about how fees will increase given limited supply of transaction space (block size)  -- a fact that was never in doubt.  And it includes an awesomely honest quote from MP (which others have already commented on) which basically espouses plutocracy -- rule by the rich (although "rule" in this context may be more that the rich do whatever they want and everybody else sucks it up).  

The second post talks about the growth and value of the "underground economy" (of which the black markets are a subset) and how technologies should be focused on it.  However, the underground economy is characterized by lots of small transactions.  The underground economy isn't going to fit in 1 MB, and can't afford high txn fees (please read Hernando De Soto, The mystery of Capital).  The only thing that will fit the 1MB block limit profile are large settlements between banking institutions.

The recent spam was a technical test and succeeded, as far as it went (we did not see the sustained mempool growth we will see when demand is consistently above 100%).  But it was not a social test.  Recently on reddit we are hearing exciting reports of 1000s of new customers (likely operating in the underground economy) getting their first bitcoin ($5 to $10 worth) for backpage advertisements.  

What if the message coming from them had been different?  What if it had been: "This is unusable.  I don't want to pay this $1 (aggregate of a minimum of 3 txns, 1 xfer to wallet, 1 to plausible deniability address, 1 to backpage) fee to get $5 of backpage ads.  And its taking forever to see the bitcoin actually show up in my phone!"



Frappuccino_doc's car insurance is about to go up.

Because the Gavinmobile just got wr3cked, again.   Tongue

Quote
Transaction Fee Market Develops Amid Surge in Transaction Volume
http://qntra.net/2015/07/transaction-fee-market-develops-amid-surge-in-transaction-volume/

The illusion that every coffee might end up on the blockchain has faded [this] week to reveal the glory of a robust, attack and censorship resistant settlement network of actual value.

EDIT: Great minds think alike:



The recent surge in Backpage BTC use proves how spot on Justus was with his Black Market blog post.  Its obvious that BTC will change how we do commerce, no the other way around.

Agreed.  Justus hit it out of the park with that one.

Sigworthy quotes therein:

Quote
Erdogan
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July 11, 2015, 02:41:07 PM
 #28726

The only reason we have to talk about spam is because the resource allocation of network bandwidth and storage isn't handled very well.

Nobody is ever going to agree on what is or is not spam, so a more productive solution is to make whatever changes to the network are needed to ensure that everybody pays for what they use.

Once that condition is achieved, it doesn't matter how many resources people use.

Edit: Agree, and...
Someone just out of nowhere defined what is spam, and entered it into the code. But we have seen earlier, that not all miners care about that. It is really impossible to say, some people need small amounts. It is best that there is no agreement. Again, trust the market, don't fight it. It is natural, it comes from the human in each individual.


Currently we have a sort of default fee, and the only resource counted is TX size.  The spam consumes also a different resource, the UXTO data set.
To charge for that resource, it might take some sort of incremental fee increase for outputs > inputs?



I suppose miners will make up rules that possibly also are based on the amounts. Anyway, whether there is a single rule, or multiple rules among miners, there will always be an element of randomness.
Wexlike
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July 11, 2015, 02:41:56 PM
 #28727

Great points Zerg. Crippling bitcoin to 1 mb/10 minutes is insane. I can download 5mb/s and upload 2 mb/s with my casual internet connection. Leaving bitcoin this way, feels like using 3,5" floppy discs when your mother already uses 20gb usb sticks.
iCEBREAKER
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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.


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July 11, 2015, 10:17:48 PM
 #28728

Great points Zerg. Crippling bitcoin to 1 mb/10 minutes is insane. I can download 5mb/s and upload 2 mb/s with my casual internet connection. Leaving bitcoin this way, feels like using 3,5" floppy discs when your mother already uses 20gb usb sticks.

Zerg mercilessly assaulted and battered two strawmen IN A ROW.

First, I never said "the underground economy IS going to fit in 1 MB."  And Zerg is incorrect to blanketly assert System D "can't afford high txn fees."  System D is vast, and while some parts of it are highly efficient, other parts (EG the darknet and off-line sex/drug markets) ALREADY thrive despite exceedingly high transactional friction.  EG, the state often locks System D participants in cages and disputes, having no recourse to law, are sometimes settled with (non-state) violence.

Second strawman: "the only thing that will fit the 1MB block limit profile are large settlements between banking institutions."

Zerg must have been asleep for the past year, enjoying pleasant dreams about 8MB (or 20MB, or 200MB) blocks magically scaling Bitcoin to Visa+gold+fiat TPS levels, while the rest of us learned about and grew to appreciate the potential of sidechains and Lightning.

As for the "honestly awesome" quote, MP is predicting and endorsing a meritocratic future where looters (both rich and poor) may not vote themselves plunder created by the efforts of rich industrialists.  That is completely different from the present plutocracy and crony capitalism Bitcoin was built to undermine and eventually consign to the dustbin of history.  If you don't want the Takers to be prevented from appropriating the economic rewards of the Makers, perhaps Bitcoin isn't as good a fit for you as good old BIS fiat.

The 1MB floppy (OLD, BUSTED, BOOO!1!!) vs 20GB usb (NEW, HAWTNESS, YAAAY!1!!) shtick is at this point itself old and busted.

Maybe Zerg disabled signatures and missed the opportunity to read the latest additions to my own artfully curated collection:

Quote
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralised, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015
Quote
The raison d'etre of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015

The 'stress test' DOS attempt was not a success.  Please, if you are able, cite a tx with a competitive fee that got stuck.

Until such a unicorn is produced, I will side with gmax and quote his scathing quip on the matter of actual reality vs herd-mind consensus:

Quote

Damn, I haven't seen someone get served like ^that^ since Pete Sampras retired!   Cool

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
Odalv
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July 11, 2015, 10:51:49 PM
 #28729

iCEBREAKER makes 2 posts IN A ROW without ever realizing they espouse mutually incompatible futures for bitcoin.  The first talks about how fees will increase given limited supply of transaction space (block size)  -- a fact that was never in doubt.  And it includes an awesomely honest quote from MP (which others have already commented on) which basically espouses plutocracy -- rule by the rich (although "rule" in this context may be more that the rich do whatever they want and everybody else sucks it up).  

The second post talks about the growth and value of the "underground economy" (of which the black markets are a subset) and how technologies should be focused on it.  However, the underground economy is characterized by lots of small transactions.  The underground economy isn't going to fit in 1 MB, and can't afford high txn fees (please read Hernando De Soto, The mystery of Capital).  The only thing that will fit the 1MB block limit profile are large settlements between banking institutions.

The recent spam was a technical test and succeeded, as far as it went (we did not see the sustained mempool growth we will see when demand is consistently above 100%).  But it was not a social test.  Recently on reddit we are hearing exciting reports of 1000s of new customers (likely operating in the underground economy) getting their first bitcoin ($5 to $10 worth) for backpage advertisements.  

What if the message coming from them had been different?  What if it had been: "This is unusable.  I don't want to pay this $1 (aggregate of a minimum of 3 txns, 1 xfer to wallet, 1 to plausible deniability address, 1 to backpage) fee to get $5 of backpage ads.  And its taking forever to see the bitcoin actually show up in my phone!"



Frappuccino_doc's car insurance is about to go up.

Because the Gavinmobile just got wr3cked, again.   Tongue

Quote
Transaction Fee Market Develops Amid Surge in Transaction Volume
http://qntra.net/2015/07/transaction-fee-market-develops-amid-surge-in-transaction-volume/

The illusion that every coffee might end up on the blockchain has faded [this] week to reveal the glory of a robust, attack and censorship resistant settlement network of actual value.

EDIT: Great minds think alike:



The recent surge in Backpage BTC use proves how spot on Justus was with his Black Market blog post.  Its obvious that BTC will change how we do commerce, no the other way around.

Agreed.  Justus hit it out of the park with that one.

Sigworthy quotes therein:

Quote

I admire how you care about poor africans who cannot afford to pay 0.001BTC for transaction while "you"(your white horse) stole 3,000 BTC into your pocket.
thezerg
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July 12, 2015, 02:16:36 AM
 #28730

I admire how you care about poor africans who cannot afford to pay 0.001BTC for transaction while "you"(your white horse) stole 3,000 BTC into your pocket.

?? You're confusing me with Cypherdoc and claims on hashfast?


@iCEBREAKER:  while its true of course that black markets have a high margin and so therefore can handle high transaction fees, my honest hope for Bitcoin is that it allows every person to "be their own bank".  I hope that it is not solely useful as currency of choice for criminal activity due to high transaction fees.  That betrays the promise of crypto-currency (IMHO)

RE: sidechains and Lightning  -- these are vaporware right now, and I have seen too many 100million dollar startups fail due to a great vaporware story.  Products have failed because they promise V2 with all these features, so people choose to wait rather than buy V1.  But if you rewind this thread about 6 months you'll see that I was an avid supporter sidechains and lightning. 

Even if the technical details are a slam-dunk, the organizational details may be problematic.  We don't know if individual companies will be backing these functions and therefore be pressure points and behave just like CoinCafe has done for the completely legal action of posting an ad on Backpage -- that is, block it due to fear of litigation.  There is TREMENDOUS power in a 1-hop (no intermediary) peer to peer network with no "sponsoring" company.  The political pressure attack surface is basically zero.


Its unfortunate that certain people can't see the wisdom of reasonable scaling until we are certain that these issues work themselves out in a manner the protects an individual's inalienable right to property and the transactions that implies.

I'm agreeing with you that the stress test was in general a success.  I mean some people had 12-14 hour txn waits (according to reddit posts), but in theory wallets will now be changed to suggest fees dynamically.  But this was a very static situation -- the spammer was issuing txns at a well known fee so it was easy to outbid him (if you read reddit and knew what was going on, which you know most casual users won't do).  But the the point of the spammer was to fill blocks, NOT to get his txns IN a block.  However, the situation will be VERY different when there is sustained 110% demand by people who need their txns in a block.
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July 12, 2015, 04:07:51 AM
 #28731

...
EDIT: Great minds think alike:




Yes, a fee market was indeed "intended". As was a high-volume of microtransactions:


...
We can't hope to guess at what anyone from back then would think about the current state of the world, though we do know that e.g. the current mining ecosystem would have been regarded as a system failure from the original precepts; and we also know that decentralization and autonomy were principle motivations for the creation of the system in the first place.
...


Perhaps you're forgetting the below, but we do have a number of Satoshi quotes that are relevant to today's discussion:


Right.  Otherwise we couldn't have a finite limit of 21 million coins, because there would always need to be some minimum reward for generating.  In a few decades when the reward gets too small, the transaction fee will become the main compensation for nodes.  I'm sure that in 20 years there will either be very large transaction volume or no volume.
(emphasis added)



...
While I don't think Bitcoin is practical for smaller micropayments right now, it will eventually be as storage and bandwidth costs continue to fall.  If Bitcoin catches on on a big scale, it may already be the case by that time.  Another way they can become more practical is if I implement client-only mode and the number of network nodes consolidates into a smaller number of professional server farms.  Whatever size micropayments you need will eventually be practical.  I think in 5 or 10 years, the bandwidth and storage will seem trivial.
...
(emphasis added)



Quote from: satoshi
Long before the network gets anywhere near as large as that, it would be safe
for users to use Simplified Payment Verification (section Cool to check for
double spending, which only requires having the chain of block headers, or
about 12KB per day.  Only people trying to create new coins would need to run
network nodes.  At first, most users would run network nodes, but as the
network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to
specialists with server farms of specialized hardware.

http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography%40metzdowd.com/msg09964.html
(emphasis added)



It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.

When we're near the cutoff block number, I can put an alert to old versions to make sure they know they have to upgrade.





I read these in aggregate to indicate that Satoshi thought Bitcoin should eventually support a high number of transactions (even very low "micro" transactions), and that consolidation of network resources (nodes and miners) was both inevitable and workable in order to achieve that *primary* goal of high-adoption rate and a large number of on-chain transactions.

I'm not saying with any absolute that Satoshi was right (though I tend to think he was), but if we're going to be discussing "original precepts", let's look at the relevant statements.

Bitcoin is the first monetary system to credibly offer perfect information to all economic participants.
But Bitcointalk & /r/bitcoin are heavily censored. bitco.in/forum, forum.bitcoin.com, and /r/btc are open.
Best info on Casascius coins: http://spotcoins.com/casascius
iCEBREAKER
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July 12, 2015, 05:55:01 AM
 #28732

I admire how you care about poor africans who cannot afford to pay 0.001BTC for transaction while "you"(your white horse) stole 3,000 BTC into your pocket.

?? You're confusing me with Cypherdoc and claims on hashfast?


@iCEBREAKER:  while its true of course that black markets have a high margin and so therefore can handle high transaction fees, my honest hope for Bitcoin is that it allows every person to "be their own bank".  I hope that it is not solely useful as currency of choice for criminal activity due to high transaction fees.  That betrays the promise of crypto-currency (IMHO)

RE: sidechains and Lightning  -- these are vaporware right now, and I have seen too many 100million dollar startups fail due to a great vaporware story.  Products have failed because they promise V2 with all these features, so people choose to wait rather than buy V1.  But if you rewind this thread about 6 months you'll see that I was an avid supporter sidechains and lightning. 

Even if the technical details are a slam-dunk, the organizational details may be problematic.  We don't know if individual companies will be backing these functions and therefore be pressure points and behave just like CoinCafe has done for the completely legal action of posting an ad on Backpage -- that is, block it due to fear of litigation.  There is TREMENDOUS power in a 1-hop (no intermediary) peer to peer network with no "sponsoring" company.  The political pressure attack surface is basically zero.


Its unfortunate that certain people can't see the wisdom of reasonable scaling until we are certain that these issues work themselves out in a manner the protects an individual's inalienable right to property and the transactions that implies.

I'm agreeing with you that the stress test was in general a success.  I mean some people had 12-14 hour txn waits (according to reddit posts), but in theory wallets will now be changed to suggest fees dynamically.  But this was a very static situation -- the spammer was issuing txns at a well known fee so it was easy to outbid him (if you read reddit and knew what was going on, which you know most casual users won't do).  But the the point of the spammer was to fill blocks, NOT to get his txns IN a block.  However, the situation will be VERY different when there is sustained 110% demand by people who need their txns in a block.


Thanks for considerate and intelligent reply.  I don't know how anyone could possibly confuse you with the increasingly unstable Frappuccino_Doc of late.

Please don't cite "Reddit posts" as proof any tx with a competitive fee failed to be given proper priority.  Blocktrail or it didn't happen.

Wallets are starting to support RBF and dynamic fees, so stuck payments shouldn't be an issue in the future.

Sidechains and Lightning (spelled it correctly this time!) are coming along nicely:

https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning

https://github.com/ElementsProject/elements

JR's profound "only black markets matter" thesis is greatly enhanced by the fact that "Being your own bank" is considered a criminal activity.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
molecular
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July 12, 2015, 12:46:32 PM
 #28733

The only reason we have to talk about spam is because the resource allocation of network bandwidth and storage isn't handled very well.

Nobody is ever going to agree on what is or is not spam, so a more productive solution is to make whatever changes to the network are needed to ensure that everybody pays for what they use.

Once that condition is achieved, it doesn't matter how many resources people use.

Edit: Agree, and...
Someone just out of nowhere defined what is spam, and entered it into the code. But we have seen earlier, that not all miners care about that. It is really impossible to say, some people need small amounts. It is best that there is no agreement. Again, trust the market, don't fight it. It is natural, it comes from the human in each individual.


Currently we have a sort of default fee, and the only resource counted is TX size.  The spam consumes also a different resource, the UXTO data set.
To charge for that resource
, it might take some sort of incremental fee increase for outputs > inputs?



Sounds like a good idea. Also something miners can simply do w/o protocol permission.

I personally perceive UTXO bloat as being much worse than blockchain bloat. *looks at his electrum-server*

PGP key molecular F9B70769 fingerprint 9CDD C0D3 20F8 279F 6BE0  3F39 FC49 2362 F9B7 0769
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July 12, 2015, 10:22:18 PM
 #28734

I admire how you care about poor africans who cannot afford to pay 0.001BTC for transaction while "you"(your white horse) stole 3,000 BTC into your pocket.
?? You're confusing me with Cypherdoc and claims on hashfast?

No, I only had a feeling that you support cypherdoc's ideas.
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July 12, 2015, 10:51:13 PM
 #28735

i'll be offline for the next 3d camping.  have fun with your new Master "iCEBlow"  et al!

2d without your FUD and bitcoin is at $318.


BOO!!!


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July 12, 2015, 11:04:13 PM
 #28736


Right.  Otherwise we couldn't have a finite limit of 21 million coins, because there would always need to be some minimum reward for generating.  In a few decades when the reward gets too small, the transaction fee will become the main compensation for nodes.  I'm sure that in 20 years there will either be very large transaction volume or no volume.
(emphasis added)



...
While I don't think Bitcoin is practical for smaller micropayments right now, it will eventually be as storage and bandwidth costs continue to fall.  If Bitcoin catches on on a big scale, it may already be the case by that time.  Another way they can become more practical is if I implement client-only mode and the number of network nodes consolidates into a smaller number of professional server farms.  Whatever size micropayments you need will eventually be practical.  I think in 5 or 10 years, the bandwidth and storage will seem trivial.
...
(emphasis added)



Quote from: satoshi
Long before the network gets anywhere near as large as that, it would be safe
for users to use Simplified Payment Verification (section Cool to check for
double spending, which only requires having the chain of block headers, or
about 12KB per day.  Only people trying to create new coins would need to run
network nodes.  At first, most users would run network nodes, but as the
network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to
specialists with server farms of specialized hardware.

http://www.mail-archive.com/cryptography%40metzdowd.com/msg09964.html
(emphasis added)



It can be phased in, like:

if (blocknumber > 115000)
    maxblocksize = largerlimit

It can start being in versions way ahead, so by the time it reaches that block number and goes into effect, the older versions that don't have it are already obsolete.

When we're near the cutoff block number, I can put an alert to old versions to make sure they know they have to upgrade.





A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System*

*A limit of less than three transactions per second occurring on planet earth may apply.
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July 13, 2015, 12:06:42 AM
 #28737

I admire how you care about poor africans who cannot afford to pay 0.001BTC for transaction while "you"(your white horse) stole 3,000 BTC into your pocket.
?? You're confusing me with Cypherdoc and claims on hashfast?

No, I only had a feeling that you support cypherdoc's ideas.

I support Satoshi's ideas.
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July 13, 2015, 05:10:15 AM
 #28738

The 7-day moving average of the blocksize is now in the red zone--six months ahead of schedule.


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July 13, 2015, 05:39:18 AM
 #28739

The 7-day moving average of the blocksize is now in the red zone--six months ahead of schedule.

If we rephrase your statement to replace the alarmist "red zone" nonsense with something less panicky and more practical, we get:

A surge in transaction volume has led to a healthy fee market--six months ahead of schedule.


The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

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July 13, 2015, 06:07:53 AM
 #28740


If we rephrase your statement to replace the alarmist "red zone" nonsense with something less panicky and more practical, we get:

A surge in transaction volume has led to a healthy fee market--six months ahead of schedule.

The 'red zone' coincides with an increase in hash rate and price.
Is there a metric for user frustration more useful than percentage of blocks being full?  It might be hard to find a less useful one.

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