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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1921120 times)
cypherdoc
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July 15, 2015, 02:06:24 AM
 #28801

iCEBLow has been cooing on about a fiction fee market. His prime example just blew up:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3db7qr/mycelium_servers_down/
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July 15, 2015, 03:07:03 AM
 #28802

BIP101, is not ideal, I'd rather have no limit, but it seemed the limit could grow faster than the Bitcoin network grows. and I like the fact that "eight" (八 Pinyin: bā) sounds similar to the word which means "wealth" in Chinese, and we have eight doubling so it should be appalling to those who are governed by superstition.  
Appalling or appealing? It is hard to tell if you are serious or sarcastic.

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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July 15, 2015, 06:21:41 AM
 #28803

It is about a majority of brain cells and intellectual authority.
The value of money comes from future economic output.

The majority of entities that will produce the most economic value in the future is the majority that matters.

In many cases, people who have accumulated a large amount of money in the present have done so because they have a high capacity to produce economic value and so in their case they contribute significantly to the economic majority.

This is not true in all cases, however. Someone who obtained large amounts of money through luck or via processes which are not repeatable in the future don't contribute as much to the economic majority as their current holdings would suggest.

This is the primary flaw behind who try to frame debates in terms of "rich" vs "poor". They aren't being sufficiently precise.

Yes, but additional production is always produced via credit. A system without credit/debt does not need to grow and therefore it doesn't grow. Rain forest people are not forced to increase their 'output'. Their output does not grow in thousand years. Only nationalized people are forced to produce surplus, because they are forced to pay tribute. That's the root of credit/debt: organized violence (collectivism/society).

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
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July 15, 2015, 06:31:49 AM
 #28804

OK.  Provide me with your estimates for the following (and explain how you arrived at your numbers) and I'll update my table using your numbers:
1.  The cost per node to store 1 GB of additional blockchain data for 5 years, assume the outputs are spent.
2.  The cost per node to store 1 GB of additional blockchain data for 5 years, assuming the outputs are unspent.
I may be missing the context as this thread is high volume and I've not read any of the backlog...

But for a full verifying node, the on-going cost cost of 1GB of additional transactions with all outputs spent is 0; all the cost related to that 1GB of data is related to the bandwidth to get it to you and the verification cost, and for short term storage until its burried, after that it need not be stored.
The cost for unspent is some non-zero number which depends on your estimation of storage costs.

This thread can be hard to follow if you're not following it all the time!  

The question was in reference to a debate I was having with Odalv about these "order of magnitude" estimates shown in this table.  I was suggesting that, under the conditions considered in the table, it is cheaper for miners to write the spam to the Blockchain and more costly for the spammer, than continually rejecting it:



Does CreateNewBlock currently take longer to execute if there are more TXs in a miner's mempool to pick from?  If so, this would add credence to Cypherdoc's hunch that miner's are producing more empty blocks when mempool swells.  
Yep, I already pointed that out to you specifically! It's superlinear in the mempool size (well, ignoring caching)  But thats unrelated to f2pool/antpool and the other SPV miners, as they're not ever calling createnewblock in that case, as they're mining without even validating.   One can mine on a validated chain with no transactions while waiting for createnewblock (which is what eligius does, for example).  

Sorry, yes I know you explained that.  The point I'm trying to make is that if CreateNewBlock is super-linear in mempool size, then it would not be surprising to see more empty blocks (what Cypher was calling "defensive blocks") when mempool swells (the miners are mining on an empty block for longer while waiting for CreateNewBlock to finish).  This was Cypher's point from the very beginning that many people, including myself, were suggesting was probably not the case!  

Furthermore, how can f2pool/antpool mine a non-empty block without calling createnewblock?

So pretty much it is more costly to the spammer if miners just write the spam (or accept the tx) into the block chain.

Interesting.

Sorry, but this cannot be true. It is like perpetuum mobile. The bigger block the cheaper it is => let's are try 1 TB block => it must be free

spammers don't control size of blocks in a no limit scenario.  miners do.  so we won't have 1TB blocks b/c miners have the incentive to not destabilize or destroy the network so they will construct large enough blocks that are efficiently optimized so as to not get orphaned and not create significant decentralization of full nodes.  they will also raise their minfee to keep their mempool from destabilizing their full nodes and to keep users access open and readily accessible.  spammers will actually have to pay instead of just recycling their unwritten spam fees.

It makes sense to accept the spam transactions assuming it will cost the spammer more than to reject it and have them recycle the tx for those unwritten.

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. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.        SMOOTHIE'S HEALTH AND FITNESS JOURNAL          History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
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July 15, 2015, 06:37:34 AM
 #28805

The 7-day moving average of the blocksize is now in the red zone--six months ahead of schedule.



Where can I gain access to this chart as it is updated?

███████████████████████████████████████

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           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
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     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.        SMOOTHIE'S HEALTH AND FITNESS JOURNAL          History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
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July 15, 2015, 06:40:23 AM
 #28806

The 7-day moving average of the blocksize is now in the red zone--six months ahead of schedule.



Where can I gain access to this chart as it is updated?

You'd have to hack my laptop Cheesy  Actually, just post a request here or PM me and I'll try to upload an updated version.  I use the 7-day moving average, so it responds slow to changes.    

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
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July 15, 2015, 06:46:23 AM
 #28807

The 7-day moving average of the blocksize is now in the red zone--six months ahead of schedule.



Where can I gain access to this chart as it is updated?

You'd have to hack my laptop Cheesy  Actually, just post a request here or PM me and I'll try to upload an updated version.  I use the 7-day moving average, so it responds slow to changes.    

Got it.  Wink Will make a request.

███████████████████████████████████████

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███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
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 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
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     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
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. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.        SMOOTHIE'S HEALTH AND FITNESS JOURNAL          History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
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BldSwtTrs
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July 15, 2015, 09:11:08 AM
 #28808

Yes, but additional production is always produced via credit. A system without credit/debt does not need to grow and therefore it doesn't grow. Rain forest people are not forced to increase their 'output'. Their output does not grow in thousand years. Only nationalized people are forced to produce surplus, because they are forced to pay tribute. That's the root of credit/debt: organized violence (collectivism/society).
I am sorry but that's some weird, utterly false statements.

If I am owner of my production I will produce beyond my consumption needs (that's called capital accumulation) to improve my standard of living in the future, even if I have no debt. The capital accumulation will enhance my productivity and thus allow me to produce more output.

The output of rain forest people doesn't grow because their culture haven't evolved private property rules, it is no related to debt.
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July 15, 2015, 12:06:00 PM
 #28809

Now, for the first time ever, people are starting to have to think about abandoning Mycelium, probably the most popular android wallet,  because core dev refuses to address the spam attack with bigger blocks.

Great job ICBLow!
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July 15, 2015, 12:27:10 PM
 #28810

Now, for the first time ever, people are starting to have to think about abandoning Mycelium, probably the most popular android wallet,  because core dev refuses to address the spam attack with bigger blocks.

Great job ICBLow!

Will you please spare us your brainless FUD?

This is why people cannot take you seriously.

Mycelium fucked up. That's all there is to it.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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July 15, 2015, 12:59:50 PM
 #28811

The output of rain forest people doesn't grow because their culture haven't evolved private property rules, it is no related to debt.
There are a few prerequisites needed before people can start producing economic surplus.

Tribal people in rain forests haven't yet figured out how to not routinely murder each other, so learning how to not respect property is still a ways off.
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July 15, 2015, 03:36:35 PM
 #28812

here's Tom Harding's reply on bitcoin-dev to the double spends being inflicted on the 0confs in the bloated mempools as a result of the full blocks.

https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org/msg00500.html:

On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 07:35:21AM -0700, Tom Harding via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>
> You perform a valuable service with your demonstration, but you
> neglected to include the txid's to show that you actually did it.
 
> Your advice is must-follow for anyone relying on an unconfirmed tx: it
> must pay a good fee and be highly relayable/minable.

Actually, I was looking at what I believe was (part of?) this attack
yesterday in the logs on my full-RBF nodes and the txs involved *did*
have good fees and were highly relayable/minable
- the double-spent txs
had near 100% propagation on blockchain.info (who has unfortunately
purged the relevant data already)

Shapeshift.io depends on Blockcypher's "confidence factor" model(1)
under the hood - yet another one of those sybil attacking network
monitoring things - to estimate tx confirmation probability by looking
at the % of nodes a tx has propagated too. But miners frequently use
customized Bitcoin Core codebases that don't follow normal policies, so
those measurements don't actually tell you what you need to know.

hapeshift confirmed(2) the attack - confirming that they disabled
unconfirmed tx acceptance - said they're going to "improve" their
system... It'll be interesting to see what that actually entails.

1) https://medium.com/blockcypher-blog/from-zero-to-hero-bitcoin-transactions-in-8-seconds-7c9edcb3b734
2) https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3ddkhy/bitcoindev_significant_losses_by_doublespending/ct468p7

-- 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org 000000000000000010bf087ed645cba129e2523930d5cde636ddbae9e03aef9c
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July 15, 2015, 03:39:27 PM
 #28813

Now, for the first time ever, people are starting to have to think about abandoning Mycelium, probably the most popular android wallet,  because core dev refuses to address the spam attack with bigger blocks.

Great job ICBLow!

Will you please spare us your brainless FUD?

This is why people cannot take you seriously.

Mycelium fucked up. That's all there is to it.

it's idiots like you that will get Bitcoin into trouble.  i can't help you if you don't understand the technicals behind what is going on.  bigger blocks would allow clearing of the mempool:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3db7qr/mycelium_servers_down/ct3mbjj
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July 15, 2015, 03:40:08 PM
 #28814

oh.

Gold collapsing.  Bitcoin UP.
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July 15, 2015, 03:41:40 PM
 #28815

here's Gavin this morning on dynamic block size:

@flix1 : dynamic limits are harder to implement-- I volunteered to help @jgarzik implement BIP100, and when diving into actually coding it up, the combination of headers-first and out-of-order block fetching makes any dynamic limit based on previous block sizes or votes in coinbase transactions non-trivial because the max block size may not be known when the block data is received.

That's not a show-stopper problem: a 'maximum feasible block size' could be used for initial denial-of-service checks on 'block' message size based on the block height, with a tighter check on size done when all previous blocks have been downloaded and validated and the block is added to the chain.

But it is much simpler if the max size is a pure function based on data in the block header.


Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.
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July 15, 2015, 03:44:58 PM
 #28816

Now, for the first time ever, people are starting to have to think about abandoning Mycelium, probably the most popular android wallet,  because core dev refuses to address the spam attack with bigger blocks.

Great job ICBLow!

Will you please spare us your brainless FUD?

This is why people cannot take you seriously.

Mycelium fucked up. That's all there is to it.

Have mercy on poor befuddled old Frap.doc.

So paltry is his understanding of Bitcoin technology, he believes Mycelium's issues in some way supervene upon Bitcoin itself!

So great is his ignorance of Bitcoin affairs, he fails to notice core devs addressing the spam attack on several fronts, including community reach-out to educate on best practices, code improvements/optimizations, and BIP submissions addressing his beloved 'bigger blocks.'

We should feel sorry for him, instead of committing cruelty to dumb animals.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
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Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004
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July 15, 2015, 03:49:15 PM
 #28817

Now, for the first time ever, people are starting to have to think about abandoning Mycelium, probably the most popular android wallet,  because core dev refuses to address the spam attack with bigger blocks.

Great job ICBLow!

Will you please spare us your brainless FUD?

This is why people cannot take you seriously.

Mycelium fucked up. That's all there is to it.

it's idiots like you that will get Bitcoin into trouble.  i can't help you if you don't understand the technicals behind what is going on.  bigger blocks would allow clearing of the mempool:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3db7qr/mycelium_servers_down/ct3mbjj

Then why aren't every nodes down?

The problem is clearly shoddy backend implementation on Mycelium part, as is clearly explained in the reddit thread you have linked by Mycelium devs themselves. Moreover, any user not relying on outdate wallet models with centralized server dependent on 3!!! nodes is not experiencing any of these problems.

Bitcoin isn't to blame for amateur software. Everytime you cling on to any minor, user-defined issue to promote your FUD makes you look more pathetic and desperate.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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July 15, 2015, 03:50:38 PM
 #28818

Now, for the first time ever, people are starting to have to think about abandoning Mycelium, probably the most popular android wallet,  because core dev refuses to address the spam attack with bigger blocks.

Great job ICBLow!

Will you please spare us your brainless FUD?

This is why people cannot take you seriously.

Mycelium fucked up. That's all there is to it.

Have mercy on poor befuddled old Frap.doc.

So paltry is his understanding of Bitcoin technology, he believes Mycelium's issues in some way supervene upon Bitcoin itself!

So great is his ignorance of Bitcoin affairs, he fails to notice core devs addressing the spam attack on several fronts, including community reach-out to educate on best practices, code improvements/optimizations, and BIP submissions addressing his beloved 'bigger blocks.'

We should feel sorry for him, instead of committing cruelty to dumb animals.

thank you for paying me such great homage.

it's a flattering tribute when thug trolls like you follow me around the forums trying so hard to counter my messages.  you may kiss my feet now.

and yes, keep pushing this thread up to the top so everyone can read what i write while having you on ignore.
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July 15, 2015, 03:56:01 PM
 #28819

Now, for the first time ever, people are starting to have to think about abandoning Mycelium, probably the most popular android wallet,  because core dev refuses to address the spam attack with bigger blocks.

Great job ICBLow!

Will you please spare us your brainless FUD?

This is why people cannot take you seriously.

Mycelium fucked up. That's all there is to it.

it's idiots like you that will get Bitcoin into trouble.  i can't help you if you don't understand the technicals behind what is going on.  bigger blocks would allow clearing of the mempool:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3db7qr/mycelium_servers_down/ct3mbjj

Then why aren't every nodes down?

The problem is clearly shoddy backend implementation on Mycelium part, as is clearly explained in the reddit thread you have linked by Mycelium devs themselves. Moreover, any user not relying on outdate wallet models with centralized server dependent on 3!!! nodes is not experiencing any of these problems.

Bitcoin isn't to blame for amateur software. Everytime you cling on to any minor, user-defined issue to promote your FUD makes you look more pathetic and desperate.



Mycelium has been the most popular of all the android wallets.  ignoramus's like you are quick to blame them when in fact all the congestion problems are a result of full blocks and bloated mempools as a result of false "fee market" delusions from core dev worshippers like you.

let's flip this around.  just what kinda trouble would actually make you agree that blocks are too small?  i suspect there aren't any that you would dare to admit to since you are stuck on your position no_matter_what.

let me remind everybody what Bitcoin was meant to be:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg11625671#msg11625671
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July 15, 2015, 04:04:15 PM
 #28820

Now, for the first time ever, people are starting to have to think about abandoning Mycelium, probably the most popular android wallet,  because core dev refuses to address the spam attack with bigger blocks.

Great job ICBLow!

Will you please spare us your brainless FUD?

This is why people cannot take you seriously.

Mycelium fucked up. That's all there is to it.

it's idiots like you that will get Bitcoin into trouble.  i can't help you if you don't understand the technicals behind what is going on.  bigger blocks would allow clearing of the mempool:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3db7qr/mycelium_servers_down/ct3mbjj

Then why aren't every nodes down?

The problem is clearly shoddy backend implementation on Mycelium part, as is clearly explained in the reddit thread you have linked by Mycelium devs themselves. Moreover, any user not relying on outdate wallet models with centralized server dependent on 3!!! nodes is not experiencing any of these problems.

Bitcoin isn't to blame for amateur software. Everytime you cling on to any minor, user-defined issue to promote your FUD makes you look more pathetic and desperate.



Mycelium has been the most popular of all the android wallets.  ignoramus's like you are quick to blame them when in fact all the congestion problems are a result of full blocks and bloated mempools as a result of false "fee market" delusions from core dev worshippers like you.

let's flip this around.  just what kinda trouble would actually make you agree that blocks are too small.  i suspect there aren't any that you would dare to admit to since you are stuck on your position no_matter_what.

let me remind everybody what Bitcoin was meant to be:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg11625671#msg11625671

Your ignorance and disingenuity transpires through your tendency to rely on a variety of argumentum ad populum

I don't care if 100% of Bitcoin users use Mycelium it doesn't change the fact that it is amateur software and should be treated as such.

Maybe you should read again ICEBreaker post about supervenience?


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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