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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2014183 times)
Zarathustra
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July 15, 2015, 08:03:02 PM
 #28821

mythology
It's ironic the degree to which your superstitions mirror the ones described by Lloyd de Mause in the link I provided.

This is not mythology, this is reality:

Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia.
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BldSwtTrs
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July 15, 2015, 08:07:59 PM
 #28822

Yes, but additional production is always produced via credit. A system without credit/debt does not need to grow and therefore it doesn't grow. Rain forest people are not forced to increase their 'output'. Their output does not grow in thousand years. Only nationalized people are forced to produce surplus, because they are forced to pay tribute. That's the root of credit/debt: organized violence (collectivism/society).
I am sorry but that's some weird, utterly false statements.

If I am owner of my production I will produce beyond my consumption needs (that's called capital accumulation) to improve my standard of living in the future, even if I have no debt. The capital accumulation will enhance my productivity and thus allow me to produce more output.

The output of rain forest people doesn't grow because their culture haven't evolved private property rules, it is no related to debt.

Tribal people don't have private property rules because they don't want it and because they don't need it. They live within an egalitarian community. Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia. It is a thing of the society, which is collectivism, which is the perversion of the community .
Cultural rules don't come from conscious choice.
Tribal societies aren't egalitarian. Human beings are hierarchical no matter where you look.
Violence exist among tribal societies, they are more violent than modern occidental societies.

Pre-neolithic (pre-patriarchal) tribes were egalitarian, non violent.
No they weren't. They are plenty of evidence this wasn't the case.

You could read the link posted by justusranvier to begin.
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July 15, 2015, 08:09:33 PM
 #28823

Tribal people don't have private property rules because they don't want it and because they don't need it. They live within an egalitarian community. Nobody there produces beyond consumption needs. Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia. It is a thing of the society, which is collectivism, which is the perversion of the community .

Spare us the anti-industrialist New Left's romanticized version of primitivism.

Tribes are the farthest thing from egalitarian.  Tribes have chiefs, elders, and shaman.  Only under the rule of law, freed from the rule of man, do we enjoy approximate egalitarianism.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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BldSwtTrs
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July 15, 2015, 08:09:52 PM
 #28824

mythology
It's ironic the degree to which your superstitions mirror the ones described by Lloyd de Mause in the link I provided.

This is not mythology, this is reality:

Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia.
Rules doesn't need the state to emerge. Violence don't need the state to exist.
Zarathustra
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July 15, 2015, 08:11:36 PM
 #28825

Tribal people don't have private property rules because they don't want it and because they don't need it. They live within an egalitarian community. Nobody there produces beyond consumption needs. Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia. It is a thing of the society, which is collectivism, which is the perversion of the community .

Spare us the anti-industrialist New Left's romanticized version of primitivism.


Spare me your collectivist BS, thanks.
Zarathustra
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July 15, 2015, 08:14:28 PM
 #28826

mythology
It's ironic the degree to which your superstitions mirror the ones described by Lloyd de Mause in the link I provided.

This is not mythology, this is reality:

Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia.
Rules doesn't need the state to emerge. Violence don't need the state to exist.

Private property rules do not exist in an environment beyond the society. They need the state to emerge.
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July 15, 2015, 08:18:09 PM
 #28827



Unsurprisingly, a vast majority of the 'community's vision' is free shit.


Excellent point.

Frankly, I find it offensive frap.doc uses the magical African boy trope to typify and justify the free shit army, whose leaders are actually VC schmucks trying to extract profit from Bitcoin's FOSS stack, via blockchain subsidies for their crappy attempts to add value.


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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Zarathustra
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July 15, 2015, 08:37:19 PM
 #28828

mythology
It's ironic the degree to which your superstitions mirror the ones described by Lloyd de Mause in the link I provided.

This is not mythology, this is reality:

Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia.
Rules doesn't need the state to emerge. Violence don't need the state to exist.

The essays explain the history of the religious doctrines which are in reality Political Theology, proclaimed and installed by the first King-Priests , who are Priest-Kings, selfproclaimed by the Chalcolithic cattle- and horse-domesticat- ing, town- and empire-founding, new aristocracy and analyse and explain when and how the throne of the „Mother of all Gods“ was usurpated by the „Father-God“ - „God-Father“ .

For a task of such complexity, an interdisciplinary approach is indispensable, including the following academic disciplines: * Sociobiology and sociology * Zoology and evolutionary biology * Social science *Archeology and paleoanthropology, including the evolution of the australopitheci and the several species of homo * Prehistory * Paleolithic toolculture * Paleomedicine * Paleodemography * Neolithic prehistory and the earliest dynastic history * Ethnology and the so called ethnological anthropology.
(...)

5. It is important to understand (and draw conclusions) that Paleolithic communities were egalitarian; there was no hierarchy (which is translated as „holy reign“), no domination, no rulers, no chiefs and no warfare violence, as archeology revealed and social science explains. Therefore the Paleolithic division of labour according to gender, i.e. between the female gatherers and the male hunters of a given cooperative, was a collective division of labour and not individual: A woman was not gathering for „her husband“ , and a man was not hunting for „his wife“ as is frequently misunderstood. The collective of women is gathering nutrition for the whole cooperative; her work is public work, not privatized, not domesticated or domesticised Likewise the collective of males hunt for the cooperative as a whole which is composed of the female and the male collectives. „Food- sharing“.


http://gerhardbott.de/das-buch/summary-in-english.html
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July 15, 2015, 08:59:55 PM
 #28829

Perma-capping at 1MB, <3tps globally, and forcing fee growth now is akin to the Greeks jumping out of their wooden horse when Troy first comes into view.

A better strategy, while block reward is comparatively huge, is to scale up tx volume capacity (within reasonable hardware/bandwidth limits) until we have been successfully rolled inside the curtain wall of world finance. Once safely inside, the world will discover that blockspace is a limited resource in the face of (much) larger tx volumes, and the resulting fee market will rise to displace a dwindling block reward. I thought this was the plan all along?

Sure, it may not help, in the short term, the centrally planned artificial bottleneck to promote sidechains, nor incentivize people to move to altcoins. Not suggesting that this is a winner take all game with respect to on-chain vs sidechains vs alts, just that we shouldn't use maxblocksize to steer (centrally plan) their development and adoption.

Making a straw man out of a little black african boy is in poor taste Cry Looking at iCEBLOW and frappe.doc here.  Grin
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July 15, 2015, 09:31:15 PM
 #28830

Perma-capping at 1MB, <3tps globally, and forcing fee growth now is akin to the Greeks jumping out of their wooden horse when Troy first comes into view.

A better strategy, while block reward is comparatively huge, is to scale up tx volume capacity (within reasonable hardware/bandwidth limits) until we have been successfully rolled inside the curtain wall of world finance. Once safely inside, the world will discover that blockspace is a limited resource in the face of (much) larger tx volumes, and the resulting fee market will rise to displace a dwindling block reward. I thought this was the plan all along?

Sure, it may not help, in the short term, the centrally planned artificial bottleneck to promote sidechains, nor incentivize people to move to altcoins. Not suggesting that this is a winner take all game with respect to on-chain vs sidechains vs alts, just that we shouldn't use maxblocksize to steer (centrally plan) their development and adoption.

Making a straw man out of a little black african boy is in poor taste Cry Looking at iCEBLOW and frappe.doc here.  Grin

imho this is about the best sum up of the block size debate. As a long time 'max block size ftw' believer, I've recently come to accept there probably ought to be some limit, but i think this is discoverable over time and will be a result of some kind of 'market efficiency' process, rather than an arbitrary limit set in the (still) very early days. Certainly there is no way right now to predict what that limit should be imho, so we have to take the lid off and see hoe things play out.

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July 15, 2015, 09:48:58 PM
 #28831

Tribal people don't have private property rules because they don't want it and because they don't need it. They live within an egalitarian community. Nobody there produces beyond consumption needs. Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia. It is a thing of the society, which is collectivism, which is the perversion of the community .

Spare us the anti-industrialist New Left's romanticized version of primitivism.


Spare me your collectivist BS, thanks.

Ayn Rand is a collectivist?  I don't even how you would think that.   Huh

Have you been smoking monerijuana again?   Grin


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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BlindMayorBitcorn
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July 15, 2015, 10:02:21 PM
 #28832

Perma-capping at 1MB, <3tps globally, and forcing fee growth now is akin to the Greeks jumping out of their wooden horse when Troy first comes into view.

A better strategy, while block reward is comparatively huge, is to scale up tx volume capacity (within reasonable hardware/bandwidth limits) until we have been successfully rolled inside the curtain wall of world finance. Once safely inside, the world will discover that blockspace is a limited resource in the face of (much) larger tx volumes, and the resulting fee market will rise to displace a dwindling block reward. I thought this was the plan all along?

Sure, it may not help, in the short term, the centrally planned artificial bottleneck to promote sidechains, nor incentivize people to move to altcoins. Not suggesting that this is a winner take all game with respect to on-chain vs sidechains vs alts, just that we shouldn't use maxblocksize to steer (centrally plan) their development and adoption.

Making a straw man out of a little black african boy is in poor taste Cry Looking at iCEBLOW and frappe.doc here.  Grin

imho this is about the best sum up of the block size debate. As a long time 'max block size ftw' believer, I've recently come to accept there probably ought to be some limit, but i think this is discoverable over time and will be a result of some kind of 'market efficiency' process, rather than an arbitrary limit set in the (still) very early days. Certainly there is no way right now to predict what that limit should be imho, so we have to take the lid off and see hoe things play out.

Interesting approach.



Forgive my petulance and oft-times, I fear, ill-founded criticisms, and forgive me that I have, by this time, made your eyes and head ache with my long letter. But I cannot forgo hastily the pleasure and pride of thus conversing with you.
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July 15, 2015, 10:22:03 PM
 #28833

what we're witnessing is Blockstream core dev forcing Bitcoin into their vision of what it should be.  not Satoshi's vision.  

nor the vast majority of the community's vision.

I have to say I agree. Overtones of Greece here. Community and major stakeholders vote for a blocksize increase - core devs who seem to be working for a company with a severe conflict of interest decide the opposite.

The sooner there are viable alternatives to core the sooner it will not be possible to hijack the idea and dream that is bitcoin for personal gain..

EDIT: Suggesting that bitcoin is better off with a bidding war on fees to allow a transaction on the blockchain when it is limited to 3 transactions per second written to the chain is ludicrous for a nascent digital global currency. Suggesting that the network cannot sustain more and scale further is clearly a lie propagated by a small group who have a conflict of interest.


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July 15, 2015, 10:39:57 PM
 #28834

Community and major stakeholders vote for a blocksize increase

Hmmm where did that ever happen  Huh

I sure hope by community and "major stakeholders" you are not referring to reddit and bitcointalk.org

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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July 15, 2015, 10:50:14 PM
 #28835

Community and major stakeholders vote for a blocksize increase



Hmmm where did that ever happen  Huh

I sure hope by community and "major stakeholders" you are not referring to reddit and bitcointalk.org

I don't know, but that alleged "vote" isn't reflected here:



The bleating Gavinistas' paeans to argumetum ad populum are getting very old and busted...


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Monero
"The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine
whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy." 
David Chaum 1996
"Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect."  Adam Back 2014
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July 15, 2015, 11:09:56 PM
 #28836

mythology
It's ironic the degree to which your superstitions mirror the ones described by Lloyd de Mause in the link I provided.

This is not mythology, this is reality:

Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia.

The idea of private property is a meme, it all starts when one can justify denying land to some but not others with the use of a moral code, it is effectively enforced through force, the effectiveness of the meme, is those who are deprived very often understand the meme better than they the natural order of property.

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July 15, 2015, 11:27:15 PM
 #28837

Community and major stakeholders vote for a blocksize increase

Hmmm where did that ever happen  Huh

I sure hope by community and "major stakeholders" you are not referring to reddit and bitcointalk.org

good to see we have made some ground and are all in agreement on the other half of the sentence.

....core devs who seem to be working for a company with a severe conflict of interest decide the opposite.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
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July 15, 2015, 11:38:37 PM
 #28838

Community and major stakeholders vote for a blocksize increase

Hmmm where did that ever happen  Huh

I sure hope by community and "major stakeholders" you are not referring to reddit and bitcointalk.org

good to see we have made some ground and are all in agreement on the other half of the sentence.

....core devs who seem to be working for a company with a severe conflict of interest decide the opposite.


I think it was made quite clear by a few of their developers that sidechains would actually benefit from bigger blocks...

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
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July 15, 2015, 11:39:45 PM
 #28839


I don't know, but that alleged "vote" isn't reflected here:



The bleating Gavinistas' paeans to argumetum ad populum are getting very old and busted...

Hahahahaha.  The sad thing is that cypherdoc himself has like 5% 'distributed' among his far flung empire of hardware situated around the net.  No wonder the 'Show us your XT' thread has not been seen much these days.  I think XT has more shills on this forum than actual XT nodes.  FAIL!

On the other hand, as Hearn says, Bitcoin XT can run just fine with 5 copies of the blockchain worldwide.


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July 15, 2015, 11:40:26 PM
 #28840

Community and major stakeholders vote for a blocksize increase

Hmmm where did that ever happen  Huh

I sure hope by community and "major stakeholders" you are not referring to reddit and bitcointalk.org

good to see we have made some ground and are all in agreement on the other half of the sentence.

....core devs who seem to be working for a company with a severe conflict of interest decide the opposite.


I think it was made quite clear by a few of their developers that sidechains would actually benefit from bigger blocks...

Yes, hence no one is supporting 1MB blocks forever.

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