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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1803721 times)
TPTB_need_war
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July 10, 2015, 07:31:18 PM
 #28681

Next year, XT is the villain and there is briefly some FUD about whether it or QT is the "real" Bitcoin.

What is the real bitcoin will be clear after just a few blocks, maybe 20.


You are entitled to your opinion.   Cool

Remember everything you wrote in the Mad Max thread iCe. I will be calling you out soon on it when you are proven wrong in spades.

I warned you my time was coming and I would not be wrong.

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cypherdoc
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July 10, 2015, 07:33:03 PM
 #28682

I just wanted you to say "no, I don't want to bet against the block size limit increasing within the next year (since it likely will)"  Wink

Sorry, this season of All My Bitcoins is about the "best" block size.

Next year, XT is the villain and there is briefly some FUD about whether it or QT is the "real" Bitcoin.

/spoilers

What is the real bitcoin will be clear after just a few blocks, maybe 20.


Its obvious he doesn't want to bet because he knows he will loose.  Good job Peter.

iCEBlow is all Blow and no iCE  Grin
Zarathustra
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July 10, 2015, 07:34:27 PM
 #28683

the congestion really has only just begun.  if it persists, yes, ppl will start to stop using Bitcoin.  the exit starts slowly at first and then will morph into a stampede; especially if the price starts plunging.  the mempool is a problem that does have to be fixed so that ordinary users can start getting their tx's through.  they won't be as patient as some of us here.

Hi doc.  I can't help but notice with each passing day you sound more like a Buttcoiner.


No, with each passing day you sound more like a stalker. You are not able to attract people on your own thread.

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
iCEBREAKER
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July 10, 2015, 07:35:05 PM
 #28684

I just wanted you to say "no, I don't want to bet against the block size limit increasing within the next year (since it likely will)"  Wink

Sorry, this season of All My Bitcoins is about the "best" block size.

Next year, XT is the villain and there is briefly some FUD about whether it or QT is the "real" Bitcoin.

/spoilers

What is the real bitcoin will be clear after just a few blocks, maybe 20.


Its obvious he doesn't want to bet because he knows he will loose.  Good job Peter.

It's obvious the terms of the bet are ambiguous (Core vs XT will both claim to be the "real" Bitcoin), and I explained why the limit might be changed for some good reason (fiat dies and Sidechains suddenly rule the world), but not for the controversial, exaggerated reasons given at present.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
TPTB_need_war
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July 10, 2015, 07:35:38 PM
 #28685

the congestion really has only just begun.  if it persists, yes, ppl will start to stop using Bitcoin.  the exit starts slowly at first and then will morph into a stampede; especially if the price starts plunging.  the mempool is a problem that does have to be fixed so that ordinary users can start getting their tx's through.  they won't be as patient as some of us here.

Hi doc.  I can't help but notice with each passing day you sound more like a Buttcoiner.


No, with each passing day you sound more like a stalker. You are not able to attract people on your own thread.

Is that all that Bitcoin has become is a contest of who can mobilize male boredom?

Armchair masturbation 24 x 7 is very productive.

Note I will be deleting these noise posts.

cypherdoc
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July 10, 2015, 07:35:55 PM
 #28686

iCEBlow is all Blow and no iCE  Grin

Sounds like you are an expert on both.  Undecided

BOO!!!

iCEBREAKER
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July 10, 2015, 07:44:36 PM
 #28687

the congestion really has only just begun.  if it persists, yes, ppl will start to stop using Bitcoin.  the exit starts slowly at first and then will morph into a stampede; especially if the price starts plunging.  the mempool is a problem that does have to be fixed so that ordinary users can start getting their tx's through.  they won't be as patient as some of us here.

Hi doc.  I can't help but notice with each passing day you sound more like a Buttcoiner.


No, with each passing day you sound more like a stalker. You are not able to attract people on your own thread.

And last week you were saying how much you like my posts bumping your thread to the top.  Are you allergic to logical consistency or what?

No one is forcing you to read my posts, this thread, or this forum.  You are free to use the Ignore button, or perhaps go play some golf.

This thread isn't moderated, but you may create one that is if you don't want to be pestered by people noting you sound exactly like a Buttcoiner, except say "Cripplecoin" instead.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
cypherdoc
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July 10, 2015, 07:47:25 PM
 #28688

the congestion really has only just begun.  if it persists, yes, ppl will start to stop using Bitcoin.  the exit starts slowly at first and then will morph into a stampede; especially if the price starts plunging.  the mempool is a problem that does have to be fixed so that ordinary users can start getting their tx's through.  they won't be as patient as some of us here.

Hi doc.  I can't help but notice with each passing day you sound more like a Buttcoiner.


No, with each passing day you sound more like a stalker. You are not able to attract people on your own thread.

And last week you were saying how much you like my posts bumping your thread to the top.  Are you allergic to logical consistency or what?

No one is forcing you to read my posts, this thread, or this forum.  You are free to use the Ignore button, or perhaps go play some golf.

This thread isn't moderated, but you may create one that is if you don't want to be pestered by people noting you sound exactly like a Buttcoiner, except say "Cripplecoin" instead.

your knee jerk mouthy masturbation stops you from even identifying who you're talking to.  you just assume any criticism comes from me while being unable to understand that most ppl around here think you're a thug aka Monero Pimp.  you're here to try and bring me down for the Cripplecoiners.  ain't gonna happen.

go blow more iCE, iCEBlow.
iCEBREAKER
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July 10, 2015, 07:53:06 PM
 #28689

the congestion really has only just begun.  if it persists, yes, ppl will start to stop using Bitcoin.  the exit starts slowly at first and then will morph into a stampede; especially if the price starts plunging.  the mempool is a problem that does have to be fixed so that ordinary users can start getting their tx's through.  they won't be as patient as some of us here.

Hi doc.  I can't help but notice with each passing day you sound more like a Buttcoiner.


No, with each passing day you sound more like a stalker. You are not able to attract people on your own thread.

And last week you were saying how much you like my posts bumping your thread to the top.  Are you allergic to logical consistency or what?

No one is forcing you to read my posts, this thread, or this forum.  You are free to use the Ignore button, or perhaps go play some golf.

This thread isn't moderated, but you may create one that is if you don't want to be pestered by people noting you sound exactly like a Buttcoiner, except say "Cripplecoin" instead.

your knee jerk mouthy masturbation stops you from even identifying who you're talking to.  you just assume any criticism comes from me while being unable to understand that most ppl around here think you're a thug aka Monero Pimp.  you're here to try and bring me down for the Cripplecoiners.  ain't gonna happen.

go blow more iCE, iCEBlow.

LOL, he sounded exactly like you!  Are you twins?   Shocked

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
Peter R
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July 10, 2015, 07:58:34 PM
 #28690

It's obvious the terms of the bet are ambiguous (Core vs XT will both claim to be the "real" Bitcoin)...

It's not ambiguous at all.  I win the bet if, by this time next year, a block larger than 1 MB exists on the longest proof-of-work chain whether that's XT, Core or something else.  You win the bet otherwise.

Care to make a wager, iCEBREAKER?  1 BTC that the longest proof-of-work chain contains a block larger than 1 MB by this time next year (10-Jul-2016).  Escrowed by someone in this thread (2-of-3 multisig), of course.

Run Bitcoin Unlimited (www.bitcoinunlimited.info)
thezerg
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July 10, 2015, 07:59:16 PM
 #28691



He's just confused.  He seems to want some kind of centralized control:

Quote
I think it's time for miners to drop their max block size ASAP. Or maybe a better solution will be to simply up the min fees.

But then he (correctly) suggests that the miners should make these decisions.

Quote
Yes, that's why Bitcoin has an intelligent/human component: the miners. Miners are supposed to make decisions to help filter the spam and low priority traffic, so the real transactions aren't affected. The simplest way to do this is to increase the minimum transaction fee.

Well then I guess by his own argument the miners are not finding any issue with the network as it is running today.  Its not the MINERS that have an issue (or they WOULD change their block size), its Luke jr.

(same would happen if block size got "released" to 20 or 100 MB -- not that I'm advocating for this, I'm advocating for compromise -- the miners simply would not mine gargantuan blocks.  Except for one or 2 rogue miners who might do so every once in a while for the lulz)

 




GotaPauj
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July 10, 2015, 08:00:20 PM
 #28692

I like gold, it shines, but bitcoin isa not a real coin
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July 10, 2015, 08:12:36 PM
 #28693

if we are doing a hardfork anyway would lightening transactions help alleviate some of the spam attacks by creating instant transactions through locktime/multisig? Thus those that are attacked because they cant get their tx through for days can use lightening tx?
Erdogan
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July 10, 2015, 09:10:43 PM
 #28694

The human aspect. What will happen (any blocksize really) if a powerful opponent fills the queue with spam transactions with high fee, like 0.01 BTC or even higher? A few million dollars could suffocate the functioning of bitcoin for months. My guess: As such situation is not advantageous for the miners despite the good fee money, they would find the spam transactions using heuristics, then fill blocks say half with spam transaction to take the good money, and half with normal transactions. The attack would be costly for the attacker, reduce the payment functionality to a degree, otherwise bitcoin would continue as always.

sickpig
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July 10, 2015, 09:23:17 PM
 #28695

if we are doing a hardfork anyway would lightening transactions help alleviate some of the spam attacks by creating instant transactions through locktime/multisig? Thus those that are attacked because they cant get their tx through for days can use lightening tx?

LN would be opt- in I suppose, so if an attacker want to hit the block chain directly there's no way to block him, the Bitcoin network is open afterall. You could put in place mechanisms/incentives to dissuade those attacks, but they have to be at the protocol level I think (increase the dust fee threshold, remove tx priority based on coinbase age, ...).

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
sickpig
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July 10, 2015, 09:27:21 PM
 #28696

So your take is that devs are going full "political" rather than technical? (serious question)

If yes, what's the way to unlock this impasse?
Exactly. The heavy political bent of the core developers was obvious to me since I joined this forum. I just underestimated the amount of internal tension and mutual distrust within that group until the March 2013 event.

My proposal was published late 2011 and I always wear it in my signature:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0

In one sentence:

Don't sign political slogans like "Chancellor on the brink...", sign the "digital prospectus" specifying exactly the rules of consensus and explicitly track their inevitable changes as the world evolves, including through the splits and joins that form a DAG (directed acyclic graph), not just forks.

Posted in this thread couple of days ago:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg11664787#msg11664787



Thanks for the pointer, I will definetly have look. From a cursory Iook it seems I have a lot to digest Smiley

Bitcoin is a participatory system which ought to respect the right of self determinism of all of its users - Gregory Maxwell.
cypherdoc
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July 10, 2015, 09:38:58 PM
 #28697

The human aspect. What will happen (any blocksize really) if a powerful opponent fills the queue with spam transactions with high fee, like 0.01 BTC or even higher? A few million dollars could suffocate the functioning of bitcoin for months. My guess: As such situation is not advantageous for the miners despite the good fee money, they would find the spam transactions using heuristics, then fill blocks say half with spam transaction to take the good money, and half with normal transactions. The attack would be costly for the attacker, reduce the payment functionality to a degree, otherwise bitcoin would continue as always.



i was pondering this the other day.  the best way to handle it?  no limit.  let the miners chew through high fees like that.  is it even spam at that point?  who cares?  those would be tremendous profit to miners and strengthen and drive the hashrate even higher securing Bitcoin even tighter.  which ultimately is the last thing the spammer wants which would eventually cause them to conclude it wasn't worth it.  and then stop.
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July 10, 2015, 09:49:05 PM
 #28698

if we are doing a hardfork anyway would lightening transactions help alleviate some of the spam attacks by creating instant transactions through locktime/multisig? Thus those that are attacked because they cant get their tx through for days can use lightening tx?

LN would be opt- in I suppose, so if an attacker want to hit the block chain directly there's no way to block him, the Bitcoin network is open afterall. You could put in place mechanisms/incentives to dissuade those attacks, but they have to be at the protocol level I think (increase the dust fee threshold, remove tx priority based on coinbase age, ...).

It won't be necessary to rely on LN-type solutions to overcome spam. The correct solutions exist to handle it.

This major spam attack has been instructive, and some good things will come from it, most importantly Jeff's solution to clean up tx prioritization with a fee/KB basis and a 288 block mempool expiry, and dynamic dust threshold. If it takes this type of attack to make blue-hat thinking reach the codebase - then great.

The attack was much worse than it should have been, peaking around 90,000 tx, would have been about 16,000 tx if the dust threshold was not cut in a software change last year. Mike proposed this because btc had reached the $500 region, but it was a premature proposal and simply left a bigger window for spamming.

The biggest defense to spam is the coin dust threshold, secondly it is fees. In fact, spam can be defined as txout<coin_dust, so this value should be high enough to eliminate most noise, and fees prioritize beyond that.
Greg wants software improvements in adversity, well he is getting that with wallet software, which has been the great success of decentralization, since there must be a hundred wallet providers now, of all types. So there is a lot of inertia to change, and a lot of wallet developers were happy to let a simple default fee apply to their user's tx, this is no longer sufficient. Wallets need to be more intelligent about confirmation delays and act  by raising and lowering fees acoordingly. This is happening.

It is amazing how resilient the network is with long periods of full blocks, but anyone who thinks that this is a green light for 1MB4EVR is misreading the situation. A lot of users are upset about delayed tx, but they could have applied a higher fee to beat the spam attack. This is fine when blocks are normally 40% of the of the limit. But this is not a solution when blocks are full of sensible, real-world, kosher tx. Users battling each other for block space with higher fees will be the point where the PR disaster begins.

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July 10, 2015, 09:51:23 PM
 #28699

The human aspect. What will happen (any blocksize really) if a powerful opponent fills the queue with spam transactions with high fee, like 0.01 BTC or even higher? A few million dollars could suffocate the functioning of bitcoin for months. My guess: As such situation is not advantageous for the miners despite the good fee money, they would find the spam transactions using heuristics, then fill blocks say half with spam transaction to take the good money, and half with normal transactions. The attack would be costly for the attacker, reduce the payment functionality to a degree, otherwise bitcoin would continue as always.



i was pondering this the other day.  the best way to handle it?  no limit.  let the miners chew through high fees like that.  is it even spam at that point?  who cares?  those would be tremendous profit to miners and strengthen and drive the hashrate even higher securing Bitcoin even tighter.  which ultimately is the last thing the spammer wants which would eventually cause them to conclude it wasn't worth it.  and then stop.

Yep.
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July 10, 2015, 09:54:16 PM
 #28700

The human aspect. What will happen (any blocksize really) if a powerful opponent fills the queue with spam transactions with high fee, like 0.01 BTC or even higher? A few million dollars could suffocate the functioning of bitcoin for months. My guess: As such situation is not advantageous for the miners despite the good fee money, they would find the spam transactions using heuristics, then fill blocks say half with spam transaction to take the good money, and half with normal transactions. The attack would be costly for the attacker, reduce the payment functionality to a degree, otherwise bitcoin would continue as always.



It will cost 40 BTC per block,  240 BTC per hour, 5 760 BTC/day,  40 320/week, 161 280/month and 1 935 360/year. ... I'll hold or just pay 0.0101 per transaction :-)
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