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Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

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Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1806739 times)
cypherdoc
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July 15, 2015, 06:22:08 PM
 #28841

looking very good:

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cypherdoc
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July 15, 2015, 06:38:36 PM
 #28842

oops, $DJI going negative.  get ready for the next leg down:

Zarathustra
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July 15, 2015, 07:11:56 PM
 #28843


Lying won't help you.

I was reading Armstrong's blog daily as of August 2012 when (it was roughly 12,000) he clearly stated that either it would double before October 2015, or it would phase shift and align with private assets and then delay that double or triple until 2017. Indeed the USA stock market did rise to roughly 18,000 and then it phase shifted and so now we await the double or triple in 2017.

Funny.
He really predicted a lot of funny things:

Prediction April 2013:

Slovenia will collapse from a spending spree, not because it invested in Euro bonds.
(...)
It is true that Slovenia is not Cyprus. It is worse.


http://www.armstrongeconomics.com/archives/10720


Reality 2014:


"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
iCEBREAKER
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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.


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July 15, 2015, 07:17:56 PM
 #28844

I really couldn't care less how Mycelium has been a MAJOR force in bringing Bitcoin to the noobs

See this is the problem. "Noobs" preferring user interface and "ease-of-use" in place of robust, well designed software and then crying when the software fails them because of faulty implementation.

I've never used it, but Frap.doc is apparently a devoted fan of Mycelium and utterly distraught over its recent glitch.

Expecting 100% uptime from such a service and freaking out and declaring Bitcoin dead over a little outage is a professional noob move only he has mastered.

Speaking of professional noob maneuvers:



#REKT, please call your office.  Dr. LeBron Bitcoin is on line 2...something about a "vast GavinCoiner majority?"   Cheesy

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
Adrian-x
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July 15, 2015, 07:28:38 PM
 #28845

BIP101, is not ideal, I'd rather have no limit, but it seemed the limit could grow faster than the Bitcoin network grows. and I like the fact that "eight" (八 Pinyin: bā) sounds similar to the word which means "wealth" in Chinese, and we have eight doubling so it should be appalling appealing to those who are governed by superstition.  
Appalling or appealing? It is hard to tell if you are serious or sarcastic.


it was a spelling mistake or a Freudian slip, I was being harsh, but lots of important decisions get made on superstitions, I've had first hand frustration working on project in China.

Thank me in Bits 12MwnzxtprG2mHm3rKdgi7NmJKCypsMMQw
Zarathustra
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July 15, 2015, 07:35:08 PM
 #28846

Yes, but additional production is always produced via credit. A system without credit/debt does not need to grow and therefore it doesn't grow. Rain forest people are not forced to increase their 'output'. Their output does not grow in thousand years. Only nationalized people are forced to produce surplus, because they are forced to pay tribute. That's the root of credit/debt: organized violence (collectivism/society).
I am sorry but that's some weird, utterly false statements.

If I am owner of my production I will produce beyond my consumption needs (that's called capital accumulation) to improve my standard of living in the future, even if I have no debt. The capital accumulation will enhance my productivity and thus allow me to produce more output.

The output of rain forest people doesn't grow because their culture haven't evolved private property rules, it is no related to debt.

Tribal people don't have private property rules because they don't want it and because they don't need it. They live within an egalitarian community. Nobody there produces beyond consumption needs. Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia. It is a thing of the society, which is collectivism, which is the perversion of the community .

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
BldSwtTrs
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July 15, 2015, 07:45:41 PM
 #28847

Yes, but additional production is always produced via credit. A system without credit/debt does not need to grow and therefore it doesn't grow. Rain forest people are not forced to increase their 'output'. Their output does not grow in thousand years. Only nationalized people are forced to produce surplus, because they are forced to pay tribute. That's the root of credit/debt: organized violence (collectivism/society).
I am sorry but that's some weird, utterly false statements.

If I am owner of my production I will produce beyond my consumption needs (that's called capital accumulation) to improve my standard of living in the future, even if I have no debt. The capital accumulation will enhance my productivity and thus allow me to produce more output.

The output of rain forest people doesn't grow because their culture haven't evolved private property rules, it is no related to debt.

Tribal people don't have private property rules because they don't want it and because they don't need it. They live within an egalitarian community. Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia. It is a thing of the society, which is collectivism, which is the perversion of the community .
Cultural rules don't come from conscious choice.
Tribal societies aren't egalitarian. Human beings are hierarchical no matter where you look.
Violence exist among tribal societies, they are more violent than modern occidental societies.
cypherdoc
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July 15, 2015, 07:47:27 PM
 #28848

I really couldn't care less how Mycelium has been a MAJOR force in bringing Bitcoin to the noobs

See this is the problem. "Noobs" preferring user interface and "ease-of-use" in place of robust, well designed software and then crying when the software fails them because of faulty implementation.

I've never used it, but Frap.doc is apparently a devoted fan of Mycelium and utterly distraught over its recent glitch.

Expecting 100% uptime from such a service and freaking out and declaring Bitcoin dead over a little outage is a professional noob move only he has mastered.

Speaking of professional noob maneuvers:



#REKT, please call your office.  Dr. LeBron Bitcoin is on line 2...something about a "vast GavinCoiner majority?"   Cheesy

i think it's pretty clear to everyone around here that you have a frappe.doc fetish.  i always knew you loved me. Kiss
justusranvier
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July 15, 2015, 07:47:32 PM
 #28849

mythology
It's ironic the degree to which your superstitions mirror the ones described by Lloyd de Mause in the link I provided.
Zarathustra
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July 15, 2015, 07:59:49 PM
 #28850

Yes, but additional production is always produced via credit. A system without credit/debt does not need to grow and therefore it doesn't grow. Rain forest people are not forced to increase their 'output'. Their output does not grow in thousand years. Only nationalized people are forced to produce surplus, because they are forced to pay tribute. That's the root of credit/debt: organized violence (collectivism/society).
I am sorry but that's some weird, utterly false statements.

If I am owner of my production I will produce beyond my consumption needs (that's called capital accumulation) to improve my standard of living in the future, even if I have no debt. The capital accumulation will enhance my productivity and thus allow me to produce more output.

The output of rain forest people doesn't grow because their culture haven't evolved private property rules, it is no related to debt.

Tribal people don't have private property rules because they don't want it and because they don't need it. They live within an egalitarian community. Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia. It is a thing of the society, which is collectivism, which is the perversion of the community .
Cultural rules don't come from conscious choice.
Tribal societies aren't egalitarian. Human beings are hierarchical no matter where you look.
Violence exist among tribal societies, they are more violent than modern occidental societies.

Pre-neolithic (pre-patriarchal) tribes were egalitarian, non violent.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=155570.msg2311504#msg2311504

And this is real science:
http://gerhardbott.de/das-buch/summary-in-english.html

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
Zarathustra
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July 15, 2015, 08:03:02 PM
 #28851

mythology
It's ironic the degree to which your superstitions mirror the ones described by Lloyd de Mause in the link I provided.

This is not mythology, this is reality:

Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia.

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
BldSwtTrs
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July 15, 2015, 08:07:59 PM
 #28852

Yes, but additional production is always produced via credit. A system without credit/debt does not need to grow and therefore it doesn't grow. Rain forest people are not forced to increase their 'output'. Their output does not grow in thousand years. Only nationalized people are forced to produce surplus, because they are forced to pay tribute. That's the root of credit/debt: organized violence (collectivism/society).
I am sorry but that's some weird, utterly false statements.

If I am owner of my production I will produce beyond my consumption needs (that's called capital accumulation) to improve my standard of living in the future, even if I have no debt. The capital accumulation will enhance my productivity and thus allow me to produce more output.

The output of rain forest people doesn't grow because their culture haven't evolved private property rules, it is no related to debt.

Tribal people don't have private property rules because they don't want it and because they don't need it. They live within an egalitarian community. Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia. It is a thing of the society, which is collectivism, which is the perversion of the community .
Cultural rules don't come from conscious choice.
Tribal societies aren't egalitarian. Human beings are hierarchical no matter where you look.
Violence exist among tribal societies, they are more violent than modern occidental societies.

Pre-neolithic (pre-patriarchal) tribes were egalitarian, non violent.
No they weren't. They are plenty of evidence this wasn't the case.

You could read the link posted by justusranvier to begin.
iCEBREAKER
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July 15, 2015, 08:09:33 PM
 #28853

Tribal people don't have private property rules because they don't want it and because they don't need it. They live within an egalitarian community. Nobody there produces beyond consumption needs. Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia. It is a thing of the society, which is collectivism, which is the perversion of the community .

Spare us the anti-industrialist New Left's romanticized version of primitivism.

Tribes are the farthest thing from egalitarian.  Tribes have chiefs, elders, and shaman.  Only under the rule of law, freed from the rule of man, do we enjoy approximate egalitarianism.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
BldSwtTrs
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July 15, 2015, 08:09:52 PM
 #28854

mythology
It's ironic the degree to which your superstitions mirror the ones described by Lloyd de Mause in the link I provided.

This is not mythology, this is reality:

Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia.
Rules doesn't need the state to emerge. Violence don't need the state to exist.
Zarathustra
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July 15, 2015, 08:11:36 PM
 #28855

Tribal people don't have private property rules because they don't want it and because they don't need it. They live within an egalitarian community. Nobody there produces beyond consumption needs. Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia. It is a thing of the society, which is collectivism, which is the perversion of the community .

Spare us the anti-industrialist New Left's romanticized version of primitivism.


Spare me your collectivist BS, thanks.

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
Zarathustra
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July 15, 2015, 08:14:28 PM
 #28856

mythology
It's ironic the degree to which your superstitions mirror the ones described by Lloyd de Mause in the link I provided.

This is not mythology, this is reality:

Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia.
Rules doesn't need the state to emerge. Violence don't need the state to exist.

Private property rules do not exist in an environment beyond the society. They need the state to emerge.

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
iCEBREAKER
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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.


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July 15, 2015, 08:18:09 PM
 #28857



Unsurprisingly, a vast majority of the 'community's vision' is free shit.


Excellent point.

Frankly, I find it offensive frap.doc uses the magical African boy trope to typify and justify the free shit army, whose leaders are actually VC schmucks trying to extract profit from Bitcoin's FOSS stack, via blockchain subsidies for their crappy attempts to add value.

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
Zarathustra
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July 15, 2015, 08:37:19 PM
 #28858

mythology
It's ironic the degree to which your superstitions mirror the ones described by Lloyd de Mause in the link I provided.

This is not mythology, this is reality:

Private property rules are always guaranteed by organized violence of the state mafia.
Rules doesn't need the state to emerge. Violence don't need the state to exist.

The essays explain the history of the religious doctrines which are in reality Political Theology, proclaimed and installed by the first King-Priests , who are Priest-Kings, selfproclaimed by the Chalcolithic cattle- and horse-domesticat- ing, town- and empire-founding, new aristocracy and analyse and explain when and how the throne of the „Mother of all Gods“ was usurpated by the „Father-God“ - „God-Father“ .

For a task of such complexity, an interdisciplinary approach is indispensable, including the following academic disciplines: * Sociobiology and sociology * Zoology and evolutionary biology * Social science *Archeology and paleoanthropology, including the evolution of the australopitheci and the several species of homo * Prehistory * Paleolithic toolculture * Paleomedicine * Paleodemography * Neolithic prehistory and the earliest dynastic history * Ethnology and the so called ethnological anthropology.
(...)

5. It is important to understand (and draw conclusions) that Paleolithic communities were egalitarian; there was no hierarchy (which is translated as „holy reign“), no domination, no rulers, no chiefs and no warfare violence, as archeology revealed and social science explains. Therefore the Paleolithic division of labour according to gender, i.e. between the female gatherers and the male hunters of a given cooperative, was a collective division of labour and not individual: A woman was not gathering for „her husband“ , and a man was not hunting for „his wife“ as is frequently misunderstood. The collective of women is gathering nutrition for the whole cooperative; her work is public work, not privatized, not domesticated or domesticised Likewise the collective of males hunt for the cooperative as a whole which is composed of the female and the male collectives. „Food- sharing“.


http://gerhardbott.de/das-buch/summary-in-english.html

"Staat nenne ich's, wo alle Gifttrinker sind, Gute und Schlimme: Staat, wo alle sich selber verlieren, Gute und Schlimme:
Staat, wo der langsame Selbstmord aller – »das Leben« heisst."
Cconvert2G36
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July 15, 2015, 08:59:55 PM
 #28859

Perma-capping at 1MB, <3tps globally, and forcing fee growth now is akin to the Greeks jumping out of their wooden horse when Troy first comes into view.

A better strategy, while block reward is comparatively huge, is to scale up tx volume capacity (within reasonable hardware/bandwidth limits) until we have been successfully rolled inside the curtain wall of world finance. Once safely inside, the world will discover that blockspace is a limited resource in the face of (much) larger tx volumes, and the resulting fee market will rise to displace a dwindling block reward. I thought this was the plan all along?

Sure, it may not help, in the short term, the centrally planned artificial bottleneck to promote sidechains, nor incentivize people to move to altcoins. Not suggesting that this is a winner take all game with respect to on-chain vs sidechains vs alts, just that we shouldn't use maxblocksize to steer (centrally plan) their development and adoption.

Making a straw man out of a little black african boy is in poor taste Cry Looking at iCEBLOW and frappe.doc here.  Grin
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July 15, 2015, 09:31:15 PM
 #28860

Perma-capping at 1MB, <3tps globally, and forcing fee growth now is akin to the Greeks jumping out of their wooden horse when Troy first comes into view.

A better strategy, while block reward is comparatively huge, is to scale up tx volume capacity (within reasonable hardware/bandwidth limits) until we have been successfully rolled inside the curtain wall of world finance. Once safely inside, the world will discover that blockspace is a limited resource in the face of (much) larger tx volumes, and the resulting fee market will rise to displace a dwindling block reward. I thought this was the plan all along?

Sure, it may not help, in the short term, the centrally planned artificial bottleneck to promote sidechains, nor incentivize people to move to altcoins. Not suggesting that this is a winner take all game with respect to on-chain vs sidechains vs alts, just that we shouldn't use maxblocksize to steer (centrally plan) their development and adoption.

Making a straw man out of a little black african boy is in poor taste Cry Looking at iCEBLOW and frappe.doc here.  Grin

imho this is about the best sum up of the block size debate. As a long time 'max block size ftw' believer, I've recently come to accept there probably ought to be some limit, but i think this is discoverable over time and will be a result of some kind of 'market efficiency' process, rather than an arbitrary limit set in the (still) very early days. Certainly there is no way right now to predict what that limit should be imho, so we have to take the lid off and see hoe things play out.

http://haschinabannedbitcoin.com
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"A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution" - Satoshi Nakamoto
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