Bitcoin Forum
May 30, 2017, 07:42:27 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.14.1  [Torrent]. (New!)
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Poll
Question: Will you support Gavin's new block size limit hard fork of 8MB by January 1, 2016 then doubling every 2 years?
1.  yes
2.  no

Pages: « 1 ... 1432 1433 1434 1435 1436 1437 1438 1439 1440 1441 1442 1443 1444 1445 1446 1447 1448 1449 1450 1451 1452 1453 1454 1455 1456 1457 1458 1459 1460 1461 1462 1463 1464 1465 1466 1467 1468 1469 1470 1471 1472 1473 1474 1475 1476 1477 1478 1479 1480 1481 [1482] 1483 1484 1485 1486 1487 1488 1489 1490 1491 1492 1493 1494 1495 1496 1497 1498 1499 1500 1501 1502 1503 1504 1505 1506 1507 1508 1509 1510 1511 1512 1513 1514 1515 1516 1517 1518 1519 1520 1521 1522 1523 1524 1525 1526 1527 1528 1529 1530 1531 1532 ... 1559 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 1907534 times)
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
July 31, 2015, 10:53:43 PM
 #29621

lol, what a piece of junk article.  just another MP regurgitated screed.

what's really laughable is watching little kids like you, Michael Goldstein, & Pierre Rochard dream of becoming Kings.  look, i'm already a 1 percenter and was long before Bitcoin came around.  yet i seem to see more fairness in Bitcoin's potential than you guys.  whodathunk?  i find it sad that youngsters like you can't see what's better for humanity.

furthermore, i guess you're admitting that the 1MB choke is exactly what you want; it is meant to be forever.  for you, it's about boxing out the masses and making them pay you homage.

 Cheesy

...

the more individuals and ppl that use Bitcoin, the more decentralized and more powerful the outcome.

completely misleading, sounds like a new religion.

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1496130147
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1496130147

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1496130147
Reply with quote  #2

1496130147
Report to moderator
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
July 31, 2015, 11:05:10 PM
 #29622

lol, what a piece of junk article.  just another MP regurgitated screed.

what's really laughable is watching little kids like you, Michael Goldstein, & Pierre Rochard dream of becoming Kings.  look, i'm already a 1 percenter and was long before Bitcoin came around.  yet i seem to see more fairness in Bitcoin's potential than you guys.  whodathunk?  i find it sad that youngsters like you can't see what's better for humanity.

furthermore, i guess you're admitting that the 1MB choke is exactly what you want; it is meant to be forever.  for you, it's about boxing out the masses and making them pay you homage.

 Cheesy

...

the more individuals and ppl that use Bitcoin, the more decentralized and more powerful the outcome.

completely misleading, sounds like a new religion.

lol, your arguments have dwindled to nothing except for a smiley face and you resort to bringing in assistance.  haha.
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
July 31, 2015, 11:10:50 PM
 #29623

users have the one thing that has made Bitcoin great for them being taken away; fast, easy, cheap payments.  

 Cheesy

You know what they say about kids, the truth comes out of their mouth. Seems old folks can't help but to spread lies and rewrite history.

It says everything about your character that you have travestied your traditional view of Bitcoin as sound money to support your block size position.

Retail acceptance of Bitcoin is irrelevant to its strength as a SOV. Either way, you have done nothing to disprove my argument.

There are billions if not trillions of dollars that can be served by Bitcoin AS IS. Let's not focus only on how many users we can accomodate



Sorry but if I cannot use btc as an easy form of payment then it certainly loses its appeal as a private currency.

Hopefully you can't realise BTC offers much more than a private, transactional currency.

Moreover:

Quote
Precisely.  And as "just a payment system" Bitcoin is not an especially great one: The design requirements for decenteralization
impose considerable costs.  To the extent that the technology in Bitcoin is useful at all for building "just another payment system" this technology in in the process of being agressively copied by parties with deep fiat relationships (including in partnership with centeral banks).  If the focus for Bitcoin's competative advantage
becomes exclusively "better" payments then it will almost certinatly fail in the market-place against competing systems which avoid the Bitcoin currency adoption related obsticles (but also gain none of Bitcoin's important social/political promise).

Also, critically, if Bitcoin's security properties are manintained and enhanced then Bitcoin can be used to build secure systems which _also_ accomidate those applications and we can have both. But if Bitcoin'ssecurity properties are not strong then then advanced tools cannot be built for it. E.g. atomic swaps make trustless trades with external systems possible; but they are especially sensitive to long reorginizations by miners... so they can only be securely used where
those reorgs are infeasable.  So while I agree that we must be willing to tolerate not catching every conceivable use case; most of the time all that means is addressing them via a less direct but more focused solution rather than ignoring them completely.

http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-July/009729.html

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
July 31, 2015, 11:11:35 PM
 #29624

lol, your arguments have dwindled to nothing except for a smiley face and you resort to bringing in assistance.  haha.

You have failed repeatedly to make any valid argument in your last dozen posts. (Other than everyone should get free stuff of course)

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
hdbuck
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246



View Profile
July 31, 2015, 11:12:07 PM
 #29625

lol, what a piece of junk article.  just another MP regurgitated screed.

what's really laughable is watching little kids like you, Michael Goldstein, & Pierre Rochard dream of becoming Kings.  look, i'm already a 1 percenter and was long before Bitcoin came around.  yet i seem to see more fairness in Bitcoin's potential than you guys.  whodathunk?  i find it sad that youngsters like you can't see what's better for humanity.

furthermore, i guess you're admitting that the 1MB choke is exactly what you want; it is meant to be forever.  for you, it's about boxing out the masses and making them pay you homage.

 Cheesy

...

the more individuals and ppl that use Bitcoin, the more decentralized and more powerful the outcome.

completely misleading, sounds like a new religion.

lol, your arguments have dwindled to nothing except for a smiley face and you resort to bringing in assistance.  haha.

there:

If you want to transact on the Bitcoin blockchain and can't there is a window to acquire that ability cheaply. Enough Bitcoin to transact on the blockchain for all the future can be had for far less than its actual worth. If however you want to try to feed seven billion hungry mouths with hope, social media, and spam there is probably going to be an altcoin released to help you keep pretending in the not too distant future.
cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
July 31, 2015, 11:21:21 PM
 #29626

lol, what a piece of junk article.  just another MP regurgitated screed.

what's really laughable is watching little kids like you, Michael Goldstein, & Pierre Rochard dream of becoming Kings.  look, i'm already a 1 percenter and was long before Bitcoin came around.  yet i seem to see more fairness in Bitcoin's potential than you guys.  whodathunk?  i find it sad that youngsters like you can't see what's better for humanity.

furthermore, i guess you're admitting that the 1MB choke is exactly what you want; it is meant to be forever.  for you, it's about boxing out the masses and making them pay you homage.

 Cheesy

...

the more individuals and ppl that use Bitcoin, the more decentralized and more powerful the outcome.

completely misleading, sounds like a new religion.

lol, your arguments have dwindled to nothing except for a smiley face and you resort to bringing in assistance.  haha.

there:

If you want to transact on the Bitcoin blockchain and can't there is a window to acquire that ability cheaply. Enough Bitcoin to transact on the blockchain for all the future can be had for far less than its actual worth. If however you want to try to feed seven billion hungry mouths with hope, social media, and spam there is probably going to be an altcoin released to help you keep pretending in the not too distant future.

your response is no better. 

pointing to another MP site?  what's with all you guys and your Daddy complex?
hdbuck
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246



View Profile
July 31, 2015, 11:29:45 PM
 #29627

lol, what a piece of junk article.  just another MP regurgitated screed.

what's really laughable is watching little kids like you, Michael Goldstein, & Pierre Rochard dream of becoming Kings.  look, i'm already a 1 percenter and was long before Bitcoin came around.  yet i seem to see more fairness in Bitcoin's potential than you guys.  whodathunk?  i find it sad that youngsters like you can't see what's better for humanity.

furthermore, i guess you're admitting that the 1MB choke is exactly what you want; it is meant to be forever.  for you, it's about boxing out the masses and making them pay you homage.

 Cheesy

...

the more individuals and ppl that use Bitcoin, the more decentralized and more powerful the outcome.

completely misleading, sounds like a new religion.

lol, your arguments have dwindled to nothing except for a smiley face and you resort to bringing in assistance.  haha.

there:

If you want to transact on the Bitcoin blockchain and can't there is a window to acquire that ability cheaply. Enough Bitcoin to transact on the blockchain for all the future can be had for far less than its actual worth. If however you want to try to feed seven billion hungry mouths with hope, social media, and spam there is probably going to be an altcoin released to help you keep pretending in the not too distant future.

your response is no better.  

pointing to another MP site?  what's with all you guys and your Daddy complex?

its not only mp, not even him that wrote the article, but yea, whatever, sorry i wouldnt fall for your bs but quote someone that finds better words than i would. you sound pretty nervous tho.

so much for credibility
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
July 31, 2015, 11:34:54 PM
 #29628

you sound pretty nervous tho.

so much for credibility

frap.doc is desperate at this point  Angry


 Cheesy

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
wpalczynski
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1078


Twitter: @wpalczynski


View Profile
July 31, 2015, 11:38:58 PM
 #29629

estimates are going lower and lower:

Prepare for gold prices to plunge...as low as $350

http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/30/investing/gold-prices-could-drop-to-350/index.html?category=home

Where would that scenario put the silver price?

cypherdoc
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1764



View Profile
July 31, 2015, 11:42:57 PM
 #29630

lol, what a piece of junk article.  just another MP regurgitated screed.

what's really laughable is watching little kids like you, Michael Goldstein, & Pierre Rochard dream of becoming Kings.  look, i'm already a 1 percenter and was long before Bitcoin came around.  yet i seem to see more fairness in Bitcoin's potential than you guys.  whodathunk?  i find it sad that youngsters like you can't see what's better for humanity.

furthermore, i guess you're admitting that the 1MB choke is exactly what you want; it is meant to be forever.  for you, it's about boxing out the masses and making them pay you homage.

 Cheesy

...

the more individuals and ppl that use Bitcoin, the more decentralized and more powerful the outcome.

completely misleading, sounds like a new religion.

lol, your arguments have dwindled to nothing except for a smiley face and you resort to bringing in assistance.  haha.

there:

If you want to transact on the Bitcoin blockchain and can't there is a window to acquire that ability cheaply. Enough Bitcoin to transact on the blockchain for all the future can be had for far less than its actual worth. If however you want to try to feed seven billion hungry mouths with hope, social media, and spam there is probably going to be an altcoin released to help you keep pretending in the not too distant future.

your response is no better.  

pointing to another MP site?  what's with all you guys and your Daddy complex?

its not only mp, not even him that wrote the article, but yea, whatever, sorry i wouldnt fall for your bs but quote someone that finds better words than i would. you sound pretty nervous tho.

so much for credibility

actually, i think it's you who's projecting your insecurities. 

it should be clear to everyone involved that BIP 101 will have the economic majority onboard.
WhatsBitcoin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 420


View Profile
July 31, 2015, 11:45:12 PM
 #29631

estimates are going lower and lower:

Prepare for gold prices to plunge...as low as $350

http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/30/investing/gold-prices-could-drop-to-350/index.html?category=home

Where would that scenario put the silver price?

About tree fiddy?

Get sick. Get well.
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
August 01, 2015, 12:03:13 AM
 #29632

it should be clear to everyone involved that BIP 101 will have the economic majority onboard.

Quote
petertodd commented on Jun 26
Note to readers: in its current form there is a near zero chance of this getting merged due to a number of BIP-level issues in addition to debate about the patch itself. For instance, Gavin has never given any details about testing; at minimum we'd need a BIP16 style quality assurance document. We also frown on writing software with building expiration dates, let alone expiration dates that trigger non-deterministically. (Note how my recently merged CLTV considered the year 2038 problem to avoid needing a hard fork at that date)

Until these issues are addressed I an many other contributors will be muting this thread and ignoring comments until the BIP itself is fixed. Much of the discussion we see in conversations around this subject is highly repetitive and a big timesink; don't interpret silence as agreement.

You sure about that?

"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
lunarboy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 544



View Profile
August 01, 2015, 12:21:24 AM
 #29633



friday humour  Roll Eyes

somebody at zero hedge trying to link the spam attack with the Grexit.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-31/spot-greek-referendum
pa
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 502


View Profile
August 01, 2015, 12:31:34 AM
 #29634

twobitidiot on lifting the 21M cap: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3fbfnj/digital_currency_groups_twobitidiot_calls_for/
Cconvert2G36
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 392


View Profile
August 01, 2015, 12:32:16 AM
 #29635


username checks out
tabnloz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 953


View Profile
August 01, 2015, 12:55:55 AM
 #29636


i dont like the idea as it breaks the social contract of bitcoin, but this discussion needs to be had as the economy and infrastructure grows, if only to do away with it once and for all. The stigma surrounding deflation is already hyped up by the Fed's actions, I hope bitcoin can do away with the bogeyman.
iCEBREAKER
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1680


Crypto is the separation of Power and State.


View Profile WWW
August 01, 2015, 02:09:33 AM
 #29637

frap.doc is desperate at this point  Angry

Thank goodness for small miracles.

Can you imagine how insufferably smug Frap.doc would be at this point, were XT nodes dominating the network (rather than being a lulzy comedy sideshow footnote provided by Gavinsta dead-enders)?

Frap.doc is so 1337 - a true 1%'er, by income *and* by choice of Bitcoin node.

Szaboshi Backamoto, meditating in his Fortress of Solitude, is most assuredly vexed by the mighty 87 XT (out of 5954 total) nodes.   Grin Grin Grin




☐ Not REKT
☑ REKT





☐ Not REKT
☐ REKT
☑ DOUBLE REKT

The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Core GUI - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }
MoneroForCash.com  |  Buy and sell XMR near you  |  Easymonero.com  |  Bitsquare.io - Decentralized XMR Exchange
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004


Warning Dash is a planned instamine, it wasn't
brg444
Hero Member
*****
Online Online

Activity: 644

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks


View Profile
August 01, 2015, 03:10:37 AM
 #29638

No one cares about an altcoin boasting 5x Bitcoin's capacity...because it's not Bitcoin. But if it boasts 100x Bitcoin's capacity, that's a game-changer. We have to at least get in the ballpark. Watching from the sidelines is not going to cut it, and I refuse to call that in any way conservative, patient, or careful.

There is no such things like Bitcoin with 100x capacity. The security trade-off is disproportionate with the incremental amount of txs you can process.

To get in the ballpark where some people here would wanna go you'd need 100000X anyway.

I also happen to think it would be a mistake, from where you sit, to pretend that people involved are "watching from the sidelines".

This post was strangely out of character for you I should say. To read references to alt-coins competition from you was a surprise! It seems more than most here you have championed the importance of the economic majority and its interest in respecting the ledger. Well unless you refer to the "spin-offs" idea, it seems out of question for me that the ledger would ever move to another chain that is not secured by the longest proof-of-work.


"I believe this will be the ultimate fate of Bitcoin, to be the "high-powered money" that serves as a reserve currency for banks that issue their own digital cash." Hal Finney, Dec. 2010
Cconvert2G36
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 392


View Profile
August 01, 2015, 03:40:46 AM
 #29639

This post was strangely out of character for you I should say. To read references to alt-coins competition from you was a surprise! It seems more than most here you have championed the importance of the economic majority and its interest in respecting the ledger. Well unless you refer to the "spin-offs" idea, it seems out of question for me that the ledger would ever move to another chain that is not secured by the longest proof-of-work.


So some carefulness is not wasted.  We will succeed simply by not failing.  The seeds of success are sown into the fabric of the Bitcoin code and architecture.

No, there is competition from altcoins to consider. If we leave 99% of the market on the table because of ultraconservatism about blocksize, we let an altcoin have all that, and Bitcoin gets swept by the wayside. And guess which one ends up more decentralized.

The supposed conservatism or carefulness in keeping the 1MB cap (or growing it only slowly) is entirely illusory. The only position that can conceivably be called conservative is one where the blocksize cap is set as high as is likely to be feasible. The conservative option isn't "do nothing." The conservative option is to set the cap almost as high as we think any competitor will be able to feasibly do so. The network effect will take care of the slop factor, but not if that slop factor is a Texas mile because we didn't even bother aiming.

Quote
Patience...  Bitcoin is still in beta, its so young.  Lets give it the chance to grow up without breaking it along the way.

Over-patience is the same as breaking it. The result is the same because competition is ever-present. Network effect means small mistakes and sub-optimalities are forgiven, and often even substantial ones, but gigantic ones cannot be. An altcoin with orders of magnitude bigger block capabilities, able to scale on the fly because there is no limit, and experiencing no problems because the conjectured issues turned out to be frivolous...that's a tough cookie for the network effect to swallow.

No one cares about an altcoin boasting 5x Bitcoin's capacity...because it's not Bitcoin. But if it boasts 100x Bitcoin's capacity, that's a game-changer. We have to at least get in the ballpark. Watching from the sidelines is not going to cut it, and I refuse to call that in any way conservative, patient, or careful.

Seemed completely lucid and reasonable to me. Being lulled into complacency and justifying it with 1MB ubermensch dogma does not.
Zangelbert Bingledack
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1036


View Profile
August 01, 2015, 05:40:48 AM
 #29640

No one cares about an altcoin boasting 5x Bitcoin's capacity...because it's not Bitcoin. But if it boasts 100x Bitcoin's capacity, that's a game-changer. We have to at least get in the ballpark. Watching from the sidelines is not going to cut it, and I refuse to call that in any way conservative, patient, or careful.

There is no such things like Bitcoin with 100x capacity. The security trade-off is disproportionate with the incremental amount of txs you can process.

To get in the ballpark where some people here would wanna go you'd need 100000X anyway.

I also happen to think it would be a mistake, from where you sit, to pretend that people involved are "watching from the sidelines".

This post was strangely out of character for you I should say. To read references to alt-coins competition from you was a surprise! It seems more than most here you have championed the importance of the economic majority and its interest in respecting the ledger. Well unless you refer to the "spin-offs" idea, it seems out of question for me that the ledger would ever move to another chain that is not secured by the longest proof-of-work.

Spinoffs work as an altcoin defence provided we're talking about Bitcoin vs. altcoins in the context of the Bitcoin community. But as long as you have a gigantic mass market still largely unfamiliar with Bitcoin, an "altcoin" (not an altcoin from their perspective, which is the key point) can take over if it can pull off the miracle of dramatically outpacing Bitcoin's adoption rate.

For elaboration of this aspect of the argument, see:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg11423570#msg11423570
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg11423612#msg11423612
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg11423877#msg11423877
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg11423961#msg11423961 (best summary here)

That miracle becomes a lot easier if Bitcoin gets artificially hobbled way below its potential. Now the question of whether we could have 100MB blocks now without wrecking decentralization, and are leaving all that extra capacity on the table for "Supercoin" to come and grab, remains up in the air. Surely intelligent people can disagree on where exactly the real capacity limit lies, and probably by orders of magnitude at that, considering all the optimizations we have yet to think of and all the new brainpower that the next wave of exponential growth will bring in.

The correction I'd like to make is to the idea that we can afford to keep Bitcoin potentially one or more orders of magnitude below its capacity under the assumption that we have all the time in the world to succeed. If you believe we are definitely very near the real practical limit, then this argument wouldn't apply. But how many people in the smaller blocks camp are so sure of that? A lot of the Core devs seem to simply be concerned about what they would admit are theoretical issues, with the stance, "Why take unnecessary risks?" My point here is that some risk is necessary.
Pages: « 1 ... 1432 1433 1434 1435 1436 1437 1438 1439 1440 1441 1442 1443 1444 1445 1446 1447 1448 1449 1450 1451 1452 1453 1454 1455 1456 1457 1458 1459 1460 1461 1462 1463 1464 1465 1466 1467 1468 1469 1470 1471 1472 1473 1474 1475 1476 1477 1478 1479 1480 1481 [1482] 1483 1484 1485 1486 1487 1488 1489 1490 1491 1492 1493 1494 1495 1496 1497 1498 1499 1500 1501 1502 1503 1504 1505 1506 1507 1508 1509 1510 1511 1512 1513 1514 1515 1516 1517 1518 1519 1520 1521 1522 1523 1524 1525 1526 1527 1528 1529 1530 1531 1532 ... 1559 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!