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Author Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation  (Read 3312371 times)
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aminorex
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March 25, 2015, 09:09:29 PM
 #3941

...failure to achieve critical mass ... leading to a downward spiral of liquidity and capitalization.

We've tested the lower bound of demand, shaken out the weak hands among the founding holders, and now emission decline is reducing supply.  Failure to achieve critical mass is a reason to fail to go exponential.  That's very different from a reason for demand to decline below December levels.  And that is strictly required for a new low.

Quote
There also could be some partial instant collapses, such as the release of a coin based on zerocash or a Bitcoin ring signature sidechain.
Each of these events seems likely to bring more visibility to XMR, and hence more demand.  Demand is really quite low because of a lack of uses.  Since the cryptocoins-dice disaster, xmr.to and CryptoKingdom constitute the bulk of the non-speculative demand.  Even bad news is good news for XMR at this point.

> 1. Bitcoin-style cryptocurrency not seen as useful (enough) by the market. Leads to same sort of downward liquidity spiral as above, but for the entire cryptocoin universe (except maybe other platform concepts such as Ripple, fiatcoin, etc.).

Negligible probability event.

> 2. Private cryptocurrency is not seen as useful by the market. Ditto.

Negligible probability event.

> 3. Bitcoin is perceived private enough or becomes more private (incl. sidechain)

Incredibly low probability event.

> 4. Zerocoin is perceived as trusted enough (both in terms of setup and cryptographic maturity)

Possible. Not sufficient.  It must also be usable.  Adequate trust is potentially achievable, but usability is a very low probability event.

> 5. Dark/dash is perceived as private enough (and/or is improved). Requires Dark/dash to also not collapse into a financial smoldering wreckage, or other non-privacy-related failure.

Now you're at the level of plausible conceivabililty, which is a high-water mark.

> 6. An unknown black swan technology replaces Bitcoin, and is perceived as private enough or has a private version.

That would be XMR, actually.  Very nice outcome.  

> 7. An unknown black swan technology replaces Monero's ring sigs, etc., and is perceived as private enough or has a private version. Monroe does not adopt/adapt, or fails to do so quickly enough.

Of your enumerated risks, this seems the most likely, and would require a failure of the community to adapt technically, forever.  The displacing competitor would have some more usable variation of zerocoin's privacy properties, in all likelihood.

In aggregate I don't think these suffice to make failure to thrive more likely than thriving.  Most of them are of pretty negligible likelihood, or depend on some dramatic technical innovation, which is certain to occur, but only after an unknowable delay, which is time for XMR to consolidate its niche.

Quote
But overall, I'm fairly convinced that failure to "take off" at some point will lead to the liquidity implosion into irrelevance (maybe not literally zero for very long time, but eventually that).

I agree on that point, as a limit in the infinite bound.  But I have seen quite a lot of instances of a specific pattern which I think is dominating XMR valuation dynamics presently, and I consider it more likely than not that it will continue in this pattern:

When a company IPOs, there is a tendency for initial volatility to create a starting spike, after which a long, slow decline occurs, ending in a very wide bottom.  You can imagine the investor dynamics, as hot speculation becomes a quarterly grind.  When the business model and process matures to the point where organic growth is manifest, price rises, slowly at first, then in a sequence of manic rushes, as various tiers of investors pile in.  Such issues are often called 'virgins', perhaps because they have yet to experience their first ecstasies.

This is very much where I see XMR today.

What it needs to flourish is basically just a lot of sweat, to consolidate value-enhancing business processes and models.  In my view the overwhelming bulk of the early risk lies in the possibility that this sweat will not get invested in a timely manner.  The risk profile changes after dramatic success and value-expansion has been achieved.



Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.  Give a man a Poisson distribution and he eats at random times independent of one another, at a constant known rate.
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March 25, 2015, 09:22:19 PM
 #3942

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this behavior is the antithesis of what the Monero Project is working against.
Then, on the theory that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, it must be very closely aligned with what the project is about, eh?



I understand that by breaching one's privacy as such is kind of a way to show the value of privacy through Monero, but there's still, in my opinion, something wrong about not respecting people's privacy in the first place. We should not be the ones doing it to coerce, for lack of a better word, people to consider Monero.
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March 25, 2015, 09:28:19 PM
 #3943

xmr is rocketing just now..... where is the roof ?

i just loose 1btc buy order at 0.001 , just for bter hack days................ HELL
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March 25, 2015, 09:32:26 PM
 #3944

xmr is rocketing just now..... where is the roof ?

i just loose 1btc buy order at 0.001 , just for bter hack days................ HELL

Yeah it's nuts.
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March 25, 2015, 09:32:36 PM
 #3945

^
Pretty much what equipoise said. We looked at AT and saw a lot more challenges integrating it with Monero compared to btc-style coins.

That doesn't mean we aren't interested in more powerful transaction facilities, but its bit much to take on right now. Of course, it is an open source project and if others want to do the work we'll consider including it.


Unfortunate but thats the nature of the beast i suppose. It would be hard to do advanced scripting on an opaque blockchain.

Can somebody please elaborate?
Does a view key play a necessary role in implementing AT with Monero? Or how could it work?
Could Zerocash be used with AT?
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March 25, 2015, 09:39:16 PM
 #3946

^
Pretty much what equipoise said. We looked at AT and saw a lot more challenges integrating it with Monero compared to btc-style coins.

That doesn't mean we aren't interested in more powerful transaction facilities, but its bit much to take on right now. Of course, it is an open source project and if others want to do the work we'll consider including it.


Unfortunate but thats the nature of the beast i suppose. It would be hard to do advanced scripting on an opaque blockchain.

Can somebody please elaborate?
Does a view key play a necessary role in implementing AT with Monero? Or how could it work?
Could Zerocash be used with AT?

It wouldn't really help because in order for scripting to work you need everyone in the network to be able to analyze your scripts to see if they resolve true. We would need a different type of transaction. A fully transparent transaction type. This would be difficult to do without having negative externalities for the privacy of other users.

Someone smarter than me feel free to correct me but this is my understanding.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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March 25, 2015, 09:41:52 PM
 #3947

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this behavior is the antithesis of what the Monero Project is working against.
Then, on the theory that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, it must be very closely aligned with what the project is about, eh?



I understand that by breaching one's privacy as such is kind of a way to show the value of privacy through Monero, but there's still, in my opinion, something wrong about not respecting people's privacy in the first place. We should not be the ones doing it to coerce, for lack of a better word, people to consider Monero.

I do not know your country but at least in my country you cannot be private with your wealth and that's why it is important to offer Monero for the rich elite.
They probably get a lot of calls from different salesmen of business ventures so Monero is only one of the phone calls.
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March 25, 2015, 10:58:35 PM
 #3948

I do not know your country but at least in my country you cannot be private with your wealth and that's why it is important to offer Monero for the rich elite.
They probably get a lot of calls from different salesmen of business ventures so Monero is only one of the phone calls.

I think it boils down to, you can technically be an ass if you really want to, but that doesn't mean it necessarily is a good idea. I agree with vokain's recent posts.


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March 25, 2015, 11:26:25 PM
 #3949

The darkcoin profit taking theory appears to be corroborated by the rally in shadowcash.

Does anyone know if shadowcash is actively developed? Is there much evidence that the dev(s) are serious about their project?

They certainly put in the marketing effort. But I would guess most of us are disinclined to bother with a 2 week instamine PoW-> PoS coin.

It was one week, after a few days they capped the mining to 7 days or so.
They also killed the thread where i explained how they stole the bitmessage whitepaper.

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March 26, 2015, 12:06:12 AM
 #3950

The darkcoin profit taking theory appears to be corroborated by the rally in shadowcash.

Does anyone know if shadowcash is actively developed? Is there much evidence that the dev(s) are serious about their project?

They certainly put in the marketing effort. But I would guess most of us are disinclined to bother with a 2 week instamine PoW-> PoS coin.

I picked up 10 dollars worth today just in case Smiley. I like the rhetoric, im a big fan of proof of stake, pow is clearly the best way to distribute stake (though 2 weeks is disturbing), on the off chance they deliver on it 10 dollars with this early will likely be sufficient. Part of the nice thing about instamines is that the devs have a lot of incentive to make their project valuable.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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March 26, 2015, 12:14:21 AM
 #3951

Quote

 Part of the nice thing about instamines is that the devs have a lot of incentive to make their project valuable.

I would say that the incentive is merely to achieve one good pump.  No value required.
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March 26, 2015, 12:15:31 AM
 #3952

Quote

 Part of the nice thing about instamines is that the devs have a lot of incentive to make their project valuable.

I would say that the incentive is merely to achieve one good pump.  No value required.

A time locked premine would be a great way to fund the development of a crypto project. Like a 10 year long lock. Good luck getting away with a 10 year long pump not adding anything of value to the project.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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March 26, 2015, 12:17:40 AM
 #3953

Quote

 Part of the nice thing about instamines is that the devs have a lot of incentive to make their project valuable.

I would say that the incentive is merely to achieve one good pump.  No value required.

A time locked premine would be a great way to fund the development of a crypto project. Like a 10 year long lock. Good luck getting away with a 10 year long pump not adding anything of value to the project.

Oh.  I was unaware of any such implementation.
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March 26, 2015, 12:39:00 AM
 #3954

Premined, Instamined, coins have no future. Had Bitcoin been instamined to the extent that the actual block reward and coin supply was highly diminished through centralized acts of the developer/s, it would be even far less popular than it is today(Quite possibly dead even).

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March 26, 2015, 12:44:03 AM
 #3955

The darkcoin profit taking theory appears to be corroborated by the rally in shadowcash.

Does anyone know if shadowcash is actively developed? Is there much evidence that the dev(s) are serious about their project?

They certainly put in the marketing effort. But I would guess most of us are disinclined to bother with a 2 week instamine PoW-> PoS coin.

It was one week, after a few days they capped the mining to 7 days or so.
They also killed the thread where i explained how they stole the bitmessage whitepaper.

From my understanding it was a 3 week POW period.  Any source showing it was only 7 days?  The ShadowChat whitepaper sources bit-message, and has many similarities from what I read.  That is no secret.  The ShadowChat whitepaper is here: http://www.shadow.cash/downloads/shadowcoin-p2p-em.pdf  You can link to the bitmessage paper at the end in the citations.

I am not worried about a too short mining period.  The price of SDC has been so cheap that it appears most of the miners dumped their coins cheaply.  You can still scoop like 1% of the total supply of SDC for about 20 BTC.  If anyone was cornering the market the price would be a lot higher.  As the price goes up, larger holders will sell some of their stack, resulting in better distribution.

As for being actively developed.  The team seems very large, which is why DRK's Evan Duffield tried to acquire the ShadowCash team in the early days with their merger proposal. The devs are constantly putting out updates, fixing bugs, adding improvements.  They now have an in-wallet block explorer for example that was added in the last couple of weeks.  They are also working on updating the Android wallet now. They just released the designs of the soon to be implemented decentralized marketplace. I urge you to come into the IRC chat and see that the devs are very active.  You can see the IRC chat logs here and see for yourself: http://shadowcash.io/
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March 26, 2015, 01:08:21 AM
 #3956

Pline it was around 2 weeks; not one - and not 3. Eizh was correct.

Here i exposed the copying of bitmessage:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=700087.msg8156416#msg8156416

That was the reason they closed the thread and now have a self-moderated one.


When i asked about their zk-snarks promises i was referred to google.com and called a cryptonote bagholder Fudster and that cryptonote is not going to last -  since then they copied cryptonotes ringsigs - lol.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=700087.msg8156886#msg8156886


Stay away - shady as shit.

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March 26, 2015, 01:20:56 AM
 #3957

Pline it was around 2 weeks; not one - and not 3. Eizh was correct.

Here i exposed the copying of bitmessage:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=700087.msg8156416#msg8156416

That was the reason they closed the thread and now have a self-moderated one.


When i asked about their zk-snarks promises i was referred to google.com and called a cryptonote bagholder Fudster and that cryptonote is not going to last -  since then they copied cryptonotes ringsigs - lol.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=700087.msg8156886#msg8156886


Stay away - shady as shit.

Well I agree their whitepapers could have been more professionally done and been more in depth.  But I do like what they have delivered so far.
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March 26, 2015, 02:32:10 AM
 #3958

Pline it was around 2 weeks; not one - and not 3. Eizh was correct.

Here i exposed the copying of bitmessage:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=700087.msg8156416#msg8156416

Quote from: othe post linked above
First of all, if you write a whitepaper and add footnotes, you have to reference them in the text...But of course you cant because you reworded the text too much.

Isn't this the exact same thing they did with the cryptonote white paper and ShadowSend? Seems to be a pattern of behavior.

Quote
shady as shit.

Indeed
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March 26, 2015, 02:37:48 AM
Last edit: March 26, 2015, 03:00:28 AM by smooth
 #3959

Premined, Instamined, coins have no future. Had Bitcoin been instamined to the extent that the actual block reward and coin supply was highly diminished through centralized acts of the developer/s, it would be even far less popular than it is today(Quite possibly dead even).

Probably just reimplemented by something that would replace it, like maybe LTC would have actually passed it instead of just coming within a factor of 20.

satoshi wrote something about this with licenses. Paraphrasing: If you make something closed source you encourage an open source reimplementation. If you do GPL you encourage the same with an MIT-style license. So why not just start with an MIT license and avoid all the unnecessary reimplementation. Same with premines.

This is one of my concerns with the fast-ish Monero emission curve BTW. If we get too far into it without a lot of adoption then some clone or reimplementation will replace it (assuming that still is worthwhile at the time), although maybe the tail emission helps with that somewhat. Not really an issue if you're more interested in the technology than investment though.
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March 26, 2015, 02:54:31 AM
 #3960

Over 35 days since the Feb 18 low, XMR has been appreciating relatively stably at ~2.7% per diem.

Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.  Give a man a Poisson distribution and he eats at random times independent of one another, at a constant known rate.
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