Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network

[dmitryshech]

Hi Ohad,
It  looks like this project: www.aeternity.com  is very similar to Tau, they also aiming to be "Turing complete" and trying to solve the decidability problem by somehow implementing the decentralized "oracle machine"... I might be wrong though, I am not a tech so they Scientific Whitepaper is chinese for me

[ohad]

Hi Ohad,
It  looks like this project: www.aeternity.com  is very similar to Tau, they also aiming to be "Turing complete" and trying to solve the decidability problem by somehow implementing the decentralized "oracle machine"... I might be wrong though, I am not a tech so they Scientific Whitepaper is chinese for me

it looks like a flavor of ethereum. tau tries not to be turing complete, exactly because it leads to undecidability

[ohad]

today i had a thought about how to solve the mining pools centralization tendency problem. will be glad for your thoughts:

On Bitcoin as it is now, there is an inherent incentive to miners to mine in pools, while it virtually doesn't matter how much mining power they have. The reason is that even though the expected income is theoretically the same if mining with pool or solo, at least for a certain period (due to the halving of the block reward), still the variance of the income is quite high, frequently up to impractical extent. Mining in a pool on the other hand dramatically decreases the variance. So if a rational player has to choose between two options, both have same expected return but one has a significantly higher risk (volatility/variance), the player will prefer the safer option. Especially for miners who take a financial risk by buying mining hardware and electricity, they would prefer to minimize the risk of loss to the minimum possible. That's why everyone mine in pools, and for good reason.

But this situation made many Bitcoin's community member concerned about the centralization of the mining, which implies centralization of other aspects of Bitcoin as well. The tendency is to have bigger and fewer pools, just because it pays for the miners, but is in contrast to the philosophy of decentralization.

Having a slightly closer look, mining is the process of hashing a block's header while incrementing a certain field in it called the nonce. The block header contains also the Merkle root of the transactions hash tree, which in turn contains the address of the pool to receive the mining reward, and share it with the miners afterwards. This way the pool knows that if the miners find a block, they cannot fool the pool by publishing the block themselves and avoiding all other miners in the pool to get their share, since the hash matches only the block header that contains a Merkle root that hashes the transaction of the block reward.

Imagine that miners could indeed steal from everyone a block they found and not share it with the pool members. Then what? Then mining in a pool would turn a bad business, and we wouldn't have the mining centralization tendency problem we began with.

But how can we achieve that?

The point is to require the miner to sign on the block with the private key that corresponds to the miner's reward address. Consider a pool that wants to receive the reward into address X. Then every miner will have to sign the block header with the private key that corresponds to X. We then require the hash of this signature to meet the difficulty level.

This way, in order to verify that a block is valid we don't need the private key of the miner's reward, we just need to be able to verify the signature from the public key which is the address itself. On the other hand, to mine with pools, the reward address' private key must be shared with the miners, which will turn it highly unsecure and eliminate the incentive to mine in pools, since they will be able to take the reward from that address immediately.

[gjhiggins]

today i had a thought about how to solve the mining pools centralization tendency problem. will be glad for your thoughts:

Already implemented by “Mr Spread”, Spreadcoin dev - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=715435.0

Pool Prevention
To prevent pools each block must be signed with the private key which correspondents to the coinbase transaction. See whitepaper for more details.

ocminer developed a workaround for pool mining and was able to offer a Spreadcoin mining pool. Nevertheless, the technique seems to have provided some degree of protection from predation by algo-driven multipools and the “encouraged” (rather than “enforced”) decentralisation of mining did seem to be effective to the degree that the (original) distribution profile was more equably spread than is typical for alts.

An adapted version of the technique is/was also employed by Ziftrcoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=970363.0 - described more coherently in the README https://github.com/ZiftrCOIN/ziftrcoin.

Cheers

Graham

[ohad]

today i had a thought about how to solve the mining pools centralization tendency problem. will be glad for your thoughts:

Already implemented by “Mr Spread”, Spreadcoin dev - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=715435.0

Pool Prevention
To prevent pools each block must be signed with the private key which correspondents to the coinbase transaction. See whitepaper for more details.

ocminer developed a workaround for pool mining and was able to offer a Spreadcoin mining pool. Nevertheless, the technique seems to have provided some degree of protection from predation by algo-driven multipools and the “encouraged” (rather than “enforced”) decentralisation of mining did seem to be effective to the degree that the (original) distribution profile was more equably spread than is typical for alts.

An adapted version of the technique is/was also employed by Ziftrcoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=970363.0 - described more coherently in the README https://github.com/ZiftrCOIN/ziftrcoin.

Cheers

Graham

wonderful, thanks!

[yuyu123]

In 2017, Bittrex will delist Agoras Tokens due to the very very low volume.

another good reason why Ohad should stop selling the tokens in private agreements and with huge discount and concentrate all the token salling in bittrex, in fixed full price: to have more volume in bittrex for the better of the traders and to avoid delisting.

[e1ghtSpace]

An adapted version of the technique is/was also employed by Ziftrcoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=970363.0 - described more coherently in the README https://github.com/ZiftrCOIN/ziftrcoin.

Cheers

Graham

I didn't know about this coin. Interesting, and probably a bit harder to work around. But what do I know?

Edit:
If only there was a way to do this where the pool would not even know if they had coins stolen from them.

[bcmine]

In 2017, Bittrex will delist Agoras Tokens due to the very very low volume.

another good reason why Ohad should stop selling the tokens in private agreements and with huge discount and concentrate all the token salling in bittrex, in fixed full price: to have more volume in bittrex for the better of the traders and to avoid delisting.

when there is no trading, because of no one want to touch the coin until its ready to work system, like production ready, with some tasks worked around, its better to be traded on openledger

[bcmine]

How much Bitcoin was actually invested into this project?


I personally invested 36 BTC, currently worth $36,000.   Not looking like i will see a single cent of that again.   
Coin has very little buy support and very few people who actually believe anything will get done.

 

ja but when you go on tau btc price is the half, maybe you buy cheaper than cheapest sell order now, in fiat.

10 btc buy suport when btc make x10 and who knows if its going to touch 10k$ each next month is a good buy support isnt?

so feel free to dump some of your taus !!   

its a community driven project. we will see a good community work here and spin-offs, thats what matters.

[infovortice2013]

ey sea that order bout 13000sat,,,,, plop its a bag of 150k agrs bout 20 btc

some little btc can be interested just saying

happy and good 2017

[VintageBazaar]

That sell order on Bittrex for 20BTC is doing a good job at keeping prices at rock bottom...

Ohad, you really need to get something released in the next 6 months, if you get delisted from bittrex, then its game over.
No one will touch this coin if that happens.

I pray to God it does not happen.

[infovortice2013]

Ohad is fully funded to realice tau proyect in fiat out exchanges. so i not see a problem beeing delisted from bittrex for project, people can buy from Ohad directly. And the day that had finished something usable can come back to exchange by people claiming it.

the problem will be for investors that wanna exit before proyect is finished, or for those that only wanna take easy btc from agrs market.

just saying.

[Matchpool]

How does one guy thinks he can do this entire project alone? as gifted as he might be that is not feasible...

[human]

Hi Ohad,
It  looks like this project: www.aeternity.com  is very similar to Tau, they also aiming to be "Turing complete" and trying to solve the decidability problem by somehow implementing the decentralized "oracle machine"... I might be wrong though, I am not a tech so they Scientific Whitepaper is chinese for me

it looks like a flavor of ethereum. tau tries not to be turing complete, exactly because it leads to undecidability

hi, www.aeternity.com is not a flavor of ethereum. it has not much to do with ethereum. it is a fully new implementation written in erlang with a new VM, which is stack-based, similar to Bitcoin, but turing-complete. this way it becomes easier to reason about and easier to write more secure smart contract code. generally, aeternity solves quite a lot of issues of ethereum for scalable real-world applications. ethereum is great for apps which require to keep all state and code on-chain, no doubt.

how does tau-chain compare to ethereum? where can I find an overview? would be great, thanks!

[ohad]

Hi Ohad,
It  looks like this project: www.aeternity.com  is very similar to Tau, they also aiming to be "Turing complete" and trying to solve the decidability problem by somehow implementing the decentralized "oracle machine"... I might be wrong though, I am not a tech so they Scientific Whitepaper is chinese for me

it looks like a flavor of ethereum. tau tries not to be turing complete, exactly because it leads to undecidability

hi, www.aeternity.com is not a flavor of ethereum. it has not much to do with ethereum. it is a fully new implementation written in erlang with a new VM, which is stack-based, similar to Bitcoin, but turing-complete. this way it becomes easier to reason about and easier to write more secure smart contract code. generally, aeternity solves quite a lot of issues of ethereum for scalable real-world applications. ethereum is great for apps which require to keep all state and code on-chain, no doubt.

how does tau-chain compare to ethereum? where can I find an overview? would be great, thanks!

comparison with eth can be found here https://docs.google.com/document/d/16239hEjL_IgXYsk2I6RMjMKhmUte30leYI3jJ-Vgp3M/edit

[SEOcrypto]

excited for the upcoming whitepaper 

any idea when u think you'll have a sneak peak?

[ohad]

excited for the upcoming whitepaper 

any idea when u think you'll have a sneak peak?

a friend of ours who already wrote several articles about tau is going to write a sneak peak after i explained to him the core of the new ideas in a conversation. that's along my efforts for a presentation that summarizes the paper

[bitcoinsforall]

is this coin minable?

would love to get more info...thanks

[ohad]

is this coin minable?

would love to get more info...thanks

no, at least not yet

[Cibervision]

Can anyone show the steps to store the ágora tokens on a bitcoincore wallet?