2024 NBA Season

[Sanitough]

There's always been talks and intrigue about these 2 teams since the Mavs made an upset and knocked the Suns out in the playoffs in 2021. It seems like some Phoenix fans and maybe even Booker himself hasn't moved on yet.

That's why when these two teams meet again early in the season and the Suns won it after a big comeback, the celebration is like they truly got revenge on the Mavericks lol. They should really be bitter in their last year's playoffs exit as just imagined having the best record in the NBA and up by 2 wins in the playoffs against the Mavericks but still choking and losing it. And the worst, they allow the Mavericks to give them as much as 46 points behind, a literal choke.

I hope though that they will meet again in this year's playoffs to continue their rivalry, with no injuries and in a healthy lineup.

But this lost though, I mean no Luka but still the Dallas were able to escape and get that needed win against their rival. So this could be another huge lost for them mentally and it's worst for them.

I wonder what Luka is saying at the back when he saw that his team won against the Suns without him.

Well, the Suns don't have Booker as well. Since he got injured, the Suns played not that good. Well, they got a 4 game winning streak before that lost and that shows a sign of adjustments, but still, many are expecting that the Suns will be the same team as they are 2 years ago when they are at the top of the standings. Now they are 25-25 and currently 9th in the league. Nowhere near the expectation of their fans and other people who have high expectations to them.

Will they enter the playoffs? Yes for sure. The question now is, where they will land. The worst thing that can happen to them is if they will end up at the play-in tournament.

I really doubt their presence if they can have an appearance in the playoffs because they won't get that far because they are heavily relying on Devin Booker alone, point god can't lift the team anymore if he can't give his power pass to someone who is reliable to shoot anymore. Moreover, the Jazz, Thunder, Blazers and Lakers might force their way too. So if CP3 and Booker will get injured again in the precious times then it's a no go for them for sure.

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[freedomgo]

Don't know what's wrong with Poole but likely he's trying to prove he is good or just showing off, too bad for Curry to be triggered like that. I think he should behave more old on his seniors because this isn't the first time he did this kind of attitude.

Showing off most likely, I am glad it ended at his hands too because that erases the mistakes he done. But Steve Kerr should still point it out to him, all the turnovers and poor decisions he is making.
Speaking of Poole, after the game Steph Curry was waiting in the dugout to congratulate the team and Poole was the last one, he made a joke out of the frustration action of Curry throwing his mouthguard. Poole mimics what he did and also threw his mouthguard before he gets near Steph. Hilarious.
https://twitter.com/GoIdenState/status/1618493239786639361?s=20&t=T-JOlfPYJ3ayQEehhxT7Og

If they lose on that segment for sure Curry will get disappointed about what Poole done in that sequence but since they won and Poole got a huge recovery for the mistake he done well that somehow erase the pressure. But still as what you said Kerr still need to correct that since this could start up another heated argument to their rooster and might could destroy their chemistry so coach should do their job to correct their players action next time to avoid their player getting ejected on the game since this is crucial especially if this will happen again to curry.

But it was just one game, Poole was also thinking that he can make it but failed. Good thing in the end he delivered a big win for the team. Curry understand the urgency of winning as they are not in a comfortable standing, and it's a shame that a depending champion would not even make it to the playoffs.

One game is important since it could destroy their relationship especially if the player is hard headed and will not follow the play set or play their role on the team. But since they win it eliminate the tension and now they are back ballin again. Poole shouldn't do it again because its very crucial matter if the same thing will happen and Curry or any other important player will get ejected to the game due to disappointment since this might be the reason to their defeat in a game.

Remember the time when Green and KD got an argument, they manage to bring them together and continue the season, but
after that look, where's KD now?

It is very important that the chemistry is still intact. The good example is how the splash bro works, Klay knows Steph is the main man
and he respects that and that's how they keep winning titles.

Looking to see if how Curry and Poole will continue to play together and how coach Kerr will take care of this.

The management are surely looking at the matter seriously because if they let them be, this issue will become worse and worse as the day goes by and destroying the whole roster. But that's not yet the worst part because they won't know that their standing is getting lower and lower until they can't join the upcoming playoffs. Looking at Poole closely, I like the fact that he is confident to shoot the ball because he can indeed make it and he is good at crucial moments, but the problem is, his head is getting bigger.

[Distinctin]

There's always been talks and intrigue about these 2 teams since the Mavs made an upset and knocked the Suns out in the playoffs in 2021. It seems like some Phoenix fans and maybe even Booker himself hasn't moved on yet.

That's why when these two teams meet again early in the season and the Suns won it after a big comeback, the celebration is like they truly got revenge on the Mavericks lol. They should really be bitter in their last year's playoffs exit as just imagined having the best record in the NBA and up by 2 wins in the playoffs against the Mavericks but still choking and losing it. And the worst, they allow the Mavericks to give them as much as 46 points behind, a literal choke.

I hope though that they will meet again in this year's playoffs to continue their rivalry, with no injuries and in a healthy lineup.

But that revenge wasn't as sweet because they just defeated the Mavericks during the normal season games and not during the intense playoffs, whether they'll be bitter about it or not, Mavericks still holds them as they choke them for good and gave an embarrassment exit because of the big gap mainly in the eliminations where it's expected that most teams will be defensive and scores aren't that much in gap.

[Baofeng]

There's always been talks and intrigue about these 2 teams since the Mavs made an upset and knocked the Suns out in the playoffs in 2021. It seems like some Phoenix fans and maybe even Booker himself hasn't moved on yet.

That's why when these two teams meet again early in the season and the Suns won it after a big comeback, the celebration is like they truly got revenge on the Mavericks lol. They should really be bitter in their last year's playoffs exit as just imagined having the best record in the NBA and up by 2 wins in the playoffs against the Mavericks but still choking and losing it. And the worst, they allow the Mavericks to give them as much as 46 points behind, a literal choke.

I hope though that they will meet again in this year's playoffs to continue their rivalry, with no injuries and in a healthy lineup.

But this lost though, I mean no Luka but still the Dallas were able to escape and get that needed win against their rival. So this could be another huge lost for them mentally and it's worst for them.

I wonder what Luka is saying at the back when he saw that his team won against the Suns without him.

Well, the Suns don't have Booker as well. Since he got injured, the Suns played not that good. Well, they got a 4 game winning streak before that lost and that shows a sign of adjustments, but still, many are expecting that the Suns will be the same team as they are 2 years ago when they are at the top of the standings. Now they are 25-25 and currently 9th in the league. Nowhere near the expectation of their fans and other people who have high expectations to them.

Will they enter the playoffs? Yes for sure. The question now is, where they will land. The worst thing that can happen to them is if they will end up at the play-in tournament.

I really doubt their presence if they can have an appearance in the playoffs because they won't get that far because they are heavily relying on Devin Booker alone, point god can't lift the team anymore if he can't give his power pass to someone who is reliable to shoot anymore. Moreover, the Jazz, Thunder, Blazers and Lakers might force their way too. So if CP3 and Booker will get injured again in the precious times then it's a no go for them for sure.

Most likely that the Suns has reach it's peaked with CP3 and Booker and the rest, like Ayton.

So now they are starting to crumble and struggle with their current roster, they are no longer in their primes, and the NBA has catch up with them. And the injuries too to CP3 and Booker could be a factor as well.

Most likely they could make the playoff, but again, facing a difficult team in the first round, they might choke again.

[jakelyson]

Simmons' fear of shooting the ball doesn't surprise me anymore, and I highly doubt the Nets will want to take a risk and offer him a contract extension. I'd rather believe the Nets will get rid of him before his current contract expires. By the way, I'm amused by the fact that even Shaq had a better free throw percentage in his career than Simmons has this season.

Even if he doesn't shoot perimeter shots, driving to the hoop should be his bread and butter in scoring. But even that is missing now to him. If he could just shoot free throws, taking it hard to the basket could earn him a lot of free throws. I think, he is afraid even of that.

Nevertheless, he can request for the max contract extension, it's just a matter of whether the Nets is going to give in to his demand.

Because him and the Nets organization has some issues in the past and so with that I have a feeling that the Nets will not give him that huge contract extension.

That is probably true but we know that Irving is still a very valuable player without his antics. And lately, we are not hearing any issues about him. He just keeps playing ball and focuses on it, I am sure other ball organization will pick him up if the Nets will drop him.

The Nets are a power house, they could've become a champion if they were not bugged with injuries.
But I'm not really sure why they struggled with Harden in their roster. Not really a huge Nets fan, but this year, if they can be healthy, they'll have a good chance for the championship.
Kyrie and Durant will be enough for the Nets to go to the Finals, the current Nets roster has depth.

with how they are performing right now, I am inclined to believe the real problem was with the coach last year. Aside from the injuries, he was not able to make the team work together. Nets basketball last year was just full of iso and no teamwork.

[harizen]

If this will happen, offered Jerami Grant his maximum four year, $112 million extension...

Thave offered Jerami Grant his maximum four year, $112 million extension but the versatile forward is yet to accept the deal, reports Bleacher Report’s Jake Fischer. Grant became eligible for the deal earlier this month.

Do you think he is deserving of this huge contract? or will help accept it or decline it?

The final decision should have a very serious approach.

Expecting a much higher contract extension in the free agency is a good option but how sure he was that it will be offered by the Blazers? The original offer was already good and I can't blame him expecting for more but that was a risky move. Surely, he was thinking that overnight.

I hope Jerami Grant, if ever really pushes to decline the 4-year $112M contract extension but is, unfortunately, unable to get what he's expected in the free agency in the postseason, won't turn into a Dennis Schroder 2.0.

[SquallLeonhart]

I even follow this team before and considered it one of the most humble and silent teams in the league.

In the NBA bubble, they are the only team that didn't lose any game. They are 9-0 in that season return on the bubble but still weren't able to play in the playoffs. That's the time they buzz on my mind that this team might be one of the threats in the league in the future.

And it happened, Phoenix Suns make a name and were able to dominate the Western Conference for two consecutive seasons finishing 2nd and 1st in the 2020-21 and 2021-22 seasons respectively. That's also the start of Devin Booker's turning from being silent into trash talking person. I thought of him as a humble player before but maybe because of his game improvement, his behavior also changed thinking he was a solid Superstar.

I believe that CP3 got old, and he used to be a floor general for that team, meaning they had some good players in the team and CP3 managed to bring the best out of those players and gave them the ball exactly when they needed it, he knew who needed the ball early on to get hot, he knew how long it would take them to get cold to keep them hot etc etc. However, the older he got, the less he could do any of that.

Plus, the whole thing with Ayton not wanting to be there and wanting to get paid a lot more but failed to do that, ended up with some resentment between him and the club as well. All these combined caused Booker to be a lone star, and he can't do much by himself, he needs some help.

[wheelz1200]

If this will happen, offered Jerami Grant his maximum four year, $112 million extension...

Thave offered Jerami Grant his maximum four year, $112 million extension but the versatile forward is yet to accept the deal, reports Bleacher Report’s Jake Fischer. Grant became eligible for the deal earlier this month.

Do you think he is deserving of this huge contract? or will help accept it or decline it?

The final decision should have a very serious approach.

Expecting a much higher contract extension in the free agency is a good option but how sure he was that it will be offered by the Blazers? The original offer was already good and I can't blame him expecting for more but that was a risky move. Surely, he was thinking that overnight.

I hope Jerami Grant, if ever really pushes to decline the 4-year $112M contract extension but is, unfortunately, unable to get what he's expected in the free agency in the postseason, won't turn into a Dennis Schroder 2.0.

The difference here is Dennis Schroeder and Jerami Grant are 2 completely separate players.  Any team would take on Jeremy if they had cap space.  He can get that same contract from multiple teams.  Dennis Schroeder is easily replaceable with a player coming out of the draft for much cheaper.

[OgNasty]

A triple-header today on ABC.  I know what I'll have going on in the background today...  First up is the Nuggets vs 76ers here in less than 2 hours, which will be a great game as both teams are on a tear this year.  Then you have the Knicks and Nets, battle of NY thing going on.  With KD out and the Knicks playing well, I think that the Knicks have a good chance of winning this one.  Then finally you have the Lakers vs the Celtics.  The Lakers have been playing great this month, so this game might be closer than you'd think, but the Celtics have one of the best records in the NBA this year, so it will be a challenge for LeBron.  I think a betting man would probably take Boston.

[goinmerry]

I believe that CP3 got old, and he used to be a floor general for that team, meaning they had some good players in the team and CP3 managed to bring the best out of those players and gave them the ball exactly when they needed it, he knew who needed the ball early on to get hot, he knew how long it would take them to get cold to keep them hot etc etc. However, the older he got, the less he could do any of that.

Plus, the whole thing with Ayton not wanting to be there and wanting to get paid a lot more but failed to do that, ended up with some resentment between him and the club as well. All these combined caused Booker to be a lone star, and he can't do much by himself, he needs some help.

What I see in this Phoenix Suns is, no one literally can be called a leader now that's why instead of progressing into a much-improved team, which actually they already did before, lots of dramas rise on this team and their key players are mostly involved.

As far as the trading rumor goes on this team, they are doing some moves before the trade deadline. Hope that it will change the whole atmosphere of the team which is currently not that good and that's the obvious scene there.

For who are those players that will be involved, let's stay tuned on this.

[mirakal]

Milwaukee Bucks and Indiana pacers went off huge tonight. Between the 2 teams there was 272 points scored. That's pretty high IMO. Bucks got the win 141-131 and Giannis was the top scorer with 41. We see a lot of scores in the NBA in the 100s-120s range but 140 points in a game is just amazing.

Ya, that was a crazy high scoring game. We’re seeing more and more of those this season as the pace in the NBA continues to quicken. I’m sure we’re only a few years away from seeing a 200 point score in a game.

The Splash Brothers also went off tonight in a pretty high scoring game. Steph Curry especially had a great shooting night and nearly a triple double. Safe to say he’s feeling healthy.

Splash Bros. got a combined score of 64 points and that's more than half of the total points that the Toronto Raptors made throughout the night, moreover, there were four other guys in the Warriors roster who contributed a double-digit score that really helped the team achieved a win. It was a close game because the Raptors doesn't want the gap to go wider but it's still evident that the Warriors owned the game since the 1st half as they owned and led every quarter of the game.

[Botnake]

And still the Memphis Grizzlies on the losing streak, they have no answer from the Wolves, good shooting night and everyone was scoring on their side. While the Memphis had one of their worst game and a lot of turnovers.

So much from them for not taking the West and just looking at Boston Celtics are per Ja Morant.

Now they are on a desperation, although they are still in the second spot but this is their 5th straight lost.

The Grizzlies' performance really hasn't been impressive lately, but I don't think they're desperate because of their current losing streak. As you said, they're still in second place in the Western Conference standings, and they still have an advantage over the Kings, who are currently in third place in the standings. I mean, the Grizzlies coach still has time to analyze and find the reason for the team's poor performance and make adjustments accordingly.

Yes, the Grizz are still 4 games ahead from the Kings who's currently sitting on the 3rd seed in the West and that gives them some time to reflect on themselves what they're lacking and what competence should they improve so that their 5th lose streak won't balloon anymore. Even if they got that huge margin from the 3rd seed, they still need to be careful because teams on the league will be taking some advantage while they are weak and continuously showing some weakness.

Aside from that, I wonder if they will still lose the game versus the Wolves and Warriors if Steve Adams was there to help the team.

[Vaculin]

There's always been talks and intrigue about these 2 teams since the Mavs made an upset and knocked the Suns out in the playoffs in 2021. It seems like some Phoenix fans and maybe even Booker himself hasn't moved on yet.

That's why when these two teams meet again early in the season and the Suns won it after a big comeback, the celebration is like they truly got revenge on the Mavericks lol. They should really be bitter in their last year's playoffs exit as just imagined having the best record in the NBA and up by 2 wins in the playoffs against the Mavericks but still choking and losing it. And the worst, they allow the Mavericks to give them as much as 46 points behind, a literal choke.

I hope though that they will meet again in this year's playoffs to continue their rivalry, with no injuries and in a healthy lineup.

But this lost though, I mean no Luka but still the Dallas were able to escape and get that needed win against their rival. So this could be another huge lost for them mentally and it's worst for them.

I wonder what Luka is saying at the back when he saw that his team won against the Suns without him.

Well, the Suns don't have Booker as well. Since he got injured, the Suns played not that good. Well, they got a 4 game winning streak before that lost and that shows a sign of adjustments, but still, many are expecting that the Suns will be the same team as they are 2 years ago when they are at the top of the standings. Now they are 25-25 and currently 9th in the league. Nowhere near the expectation of their fans and other people who have high expectations to them.

Will they enter the playoffs? Yes for sure. The question now is, where they will land. The worst thing that can happen to them is if they will end up at the play-in tournament.

I really doubt their presence if they can have an appearance in the playoffs because they won't get that far because they are heavily relying on Devin Booker alone, point god can't lift the team anymore if he can't give his power pass to someone who is reliable to shoot anymore. Moreover, the Jazz, Thunder, Blazers and Lakers might force their way too. So if CP3 and Booker will get injured again in the precious times then it's a no go for them for sure.

Most likely that the Suns has reach it's peaked with CP3 and Booker and the rest, like Ayton.

So now they are starting to crumble and struggle with their current roster, they are no longer in their primes, and the NBA has catch up with them. And the injuries too to CP3 and Booker could be a factor as well.

Most likely they could make the playoff, but again, facing a difficult team in the first round, they might choke again.

That's right, it's seems to me that their path now has been predicted already because they are already showing some bad signs that their team can't make that far enough anymore and it's either they will choke in the 1st round of the playoffs or they won't get past the qualifiers or even play-in tournament.

It's like the whole league has gave some time to study about them last season because they got a good record but in the end, they choke and gave the franchise an embarrassment after having a good run.

[Blitzboy]

And still the Memphis Grizzlies on the losing streak, they have no answer from the Wolves, good shooting night and everyone was scoring on their side. While the Memphis had one of their worst game and a lot of turnovers.

So much from them for not taking the West and just looking at Boston Celtics are per Ja Morant.

Now they are on a desperation, although they are still in the second spot but this is their 5th straight lost.

The Grizzlies' performance really hasn't been impressive lately, but I don't think they're desperate because of their current losing streak. As you said, they're still in second place in the Western Conference standings, and they still have an advantage over the Kings, who are currently in third place in the standings. I mean, the Grizzlies coach still has time to analyze and find the reason for the team's poor performance and make adjustments accordingly.

Although the Grizzlies have had recent difficulties, they are still in the race. They have some breathing space since they are still comfortably in second position. But let's face it—if they want to hold onto that position, they need to improve. The Kings, after all, are right behind them and won't give up easily. However, I have faith in the coach, knowing that he will identify the issue and implement some fixes. There is still time for them to make a comeback since the season is still young.

[karabiber]

Minnesota is having a great January. They scored 10 wins in 14 matches. The Sacramento Kings are third in the West. The Kings are currently the league's top scorer, averaging 119.7 points. The points average in the last five games are 135.2! Yes, you didn't misread. We cannot say that the host Minnesota is far behind its rival. In addition to 115.1 overall points average, they also averaged 118.4 points in the last five game periods. With these data, i say that the limit is exceeded in the struggle of two teams that love open field and fast play.

[wheelz1200]

There's always been talks and intrigue about these 2 teams since the Mavs made an upset and knocked the Suns out in the playoffs in 2021. It seems like some Phoenix fans and maybe even Booker himself hasn't moved on yet.

That's why when these two teams meet again early in the season and the Suns won it after a big comeback, the celebration is like they truly got revenge on the Mavericks lol. They should really be bitter in their last year's playoffs exit as just imagined having the best record in the NBA and up by 2 wins in the playoffs against the Mavericks but still choking and losing it. And the worst, they allow the Mavericks to give them as much as 46 points behind, a literal choke.

I hope though that they will meet again in this year's playoffs to continue their rivalry, with no injuries and in a healthy lineup.

But this lost though, I mean no Luka but still the Dallas were able to escape and get that needed win against their rival. So this could be another huge lost for them mentally and it's worst for them.

I wonder what Luka is saying at the back when he saw that his team won against the Suns without him.

Well, the Suns don't have Booker as well. Since he got injured, the Suns played not that good. Well, they got a 4 game winning streak before that lost and that shows a sign of adjustments, but still, many are expecting that the Suns will be the same team as they are 2 years ago when they are at the top of the standings. Now they are 25-25 and currently 9th in the league. Nowhere near the expectation of their fans and other people who have high expectations to them.

Will they enter the playoffs? Yes for sure. The question now is, where they will land. The worst thing that can happen to them is if they will end up at the play-in tournament.

I really doubt their presence if they can have an appearance in the playoffs because they won't get that far because they are heavily relying on Devin Booker alone, point god can't lift the team anymore if he can't give his power pass to someone who is reliable to shoot anymore. Moreover, the Jazz, Thunder, Blazers and Lakers might force their way too. So if CP3 and Booker will get injured again in the precious times then it's a no go for them for sure.

Most likely that the Suns has reach it's peaked with CP3 and Booker and the rest, like Ayton.

So now they are starting to crumble and struggle with their current roster, they are no longer in their primes, and the NBA has catch up with them. And the injuries too to CP3 and Booker could be a factor as well.

Most likely they could make the playoff, but again, facing a difficult team in the first round, they might choke again.

I mean cp3 might not be in his pri.e but Booker and ayton are 26 and 24 years old which is the sweet spot for nba players.  They are absolutely in theor prime.  Problem they have is with Booker out with injury it reduces theor ability to spread the floor.  Booker is the key piece to this team.  They will be just fine once everyone gets back on the court.

[passwordnow]

Kyrie Irving's consistency in the last few games is spectacular, he's been helping the Nets a lot, because he's been on fire lately.

And that's why he's been asking for a maximum extension contract. There has to be a reason why he's playing like that and showing of the Nets management on what they've got if they're with him.

Yes, absolutely.
Despite the problems that Kyrie Irving had in the past, he's still showing, he is an excellent player (for me, even an allstar).
If Durant returns as soon as possible and Kyrie Irving maintains the performance he's been having lately, that will make the Nets a dangerous team as well an excellent one!!

Well, no doubt that he's really good and we'll see if the Nets management will reciprocate what he's asking. If not, how much are they going to offer him with the possible extension contract that he's asking for?
It's just all about basketball and let's remove all of those issues that he's got in recently since it's almost forgotten, the Nets standing is doing good and he's one of those contributors that the team has ever had.

[Captain Corporate]

There is no doubt that Kyrie is a max contract "player", but is he a max contract "person"? I am not sure about that. You may agree with his views or not, but at the end of the day this dude has been controversial for a long time now. During that 2016 Cavs title run, I did not know he was like that, but for the past 5 years or so, he has been saying or doing things that gets bad attention. Teams do not need that, they need players that will get love from everyone. This is why he is definitely worth a max contract if we were looking at what he does on the court, but Nets still consider an alternative to this because they are not entirely sure if they want to get the bad attention he causes.

[gagux123]

I think it's more likely that Durant is absent that's why he is taking the game over. But if Durant will come back again, maybe his role will diminished as we all know that Durant is the alpha of the team.

Nevertheless, he can request for the max contract extension, it's just a matter of whether the Nets is going to give in to his demand.

Because him and the Nets organization has some issues in the past and so with that I have a feeling that the Nets will not give him that huge contract extension.

Well, could that really happen?
I also admit that Durant is the alpha player on the team and I have no doubt that he makes a difference on the team.
I know Irving has had some issues personally and also with the Brooklyn Nets, but can the Nets offer maximum extension for Kyrie Irving? Or is this something impossible to happen?

[jakelyson]

There is no doubt that Kyrie is a max contract "player", but is he a max contract "person"? I am not sure about that. You may agree with his views or not, but at the end of the day this dude has been controversial for a long time now. During that 2016 Cavs title run, I did not know he was like that, but for the past 5 years or so, he has been saying or doing things that gets bad attention. Teams do not need that, they need players that will get love from everyone. This is why he is definitely worth a max contract if we were looking at what he does on the court, but Nets still consider an alternative to this because they are not entirely sure if they want to get the bad attention he causes.

If the Nets don't give him the max contract and let him go for UFA, I believe there are still a lot of teams that will be interested in Kyrie Irving. He is controversial but at least for now, it is under control. Never heard anything controversial about him lately. That is a good sign. A lot of fans still love to see him play.

I mean cp3 might not be in his pri.e but Booker and ayton are 26 and 24 years old which is the sweet spot for nba players.  They are absolutely in theor prime.  Problem they have is with Booker out with injury it reduces theor ability to spread the floor.  Booker is the key piece to this team.  They will be just fine once everyone gets back on the court.

That is true. Even when CP3 is not in his prime anymore he can still contribute a lot aside from being a floor general in the court. He is a good leader and can guide both Ayton and Booker. These two stars should carry heavier load than CP3. When they get back healthy, they are still a threat to those teams at the top of the ranking right now. The West is too close that even though they are 9th right now, they are only 2 games away from the Pelicans who are currently at #4.