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Question: What type of pool payouts do you prefer?
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Author Topic: [40+ PH] SlushPool (slushpool.com); World's First Mining Pool  (Read 3933059 times)
nottm28
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May 26, 2013, 10:32:06 PM
 #9001

I am too much of a noob to call anyone a newbie, i did notice your sr member status earlier, apologies if i offended.

Ok, sorry. I have to bite again. Anyone can get sr member status. All you have to do is make 250 posts (or is it 300 - something like that). And then that's it. Doesn't actually matter if your posts all say 'hello' - just the quantity that counts...

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May 26, 2013, 10:41:50 PM
 #9002

I am too much of a noob to call anyone a newbie, i did notice your sr member status earlier, apologies if i offended.

Ok, sorry. I have to bite again. Anyone can get sr member status. All you have to do is make 250 posts (or is it 300 - something like that). And then that's it. Doesn't actually matter if your posts all say 'hello' - just the quantity that counts...
Same goes for any kind of member... Even Hero member like... And after today crash of the reword system even you can't say that everything is good since some blocks are still off and confirmed. Or can you?

valladex no offence. I was just wondering to who are you referring to...
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May 26, 2013, 10:42:05 PM
 #9003

I am too much of a noob to call anyone a newbie, i did notice your sr member status earlier, apologies if i offended.

Ok, sorry. I have to bite again. Anyone can get sr member status. All you have to do is make 250 posts (or is it 300 - something like that). And then that's it. Doesn't actually matter if your posts all say 'hello' - just the quantity that counts...

i know, but dont forget you still gotta get out of newbie hell first(an achievement in itself) and then im still in no position to disrespect anyone, not that i like/intend to be disrespectful.

lucko- general post for any confused newbies deciding on a pool just like i did 5-6 weeks ago.
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May 26, 2013, 11:07:24 PM
 #9004

ok, I went through my rewards for the last 30 blocks, and this is my result;

Should have   Actually got
0.00214735    0.00216359    (+0.00001624)
0.00210076    0.00169320    (-0.00040756)
0.00220479    0.00232812    (+0.00012333)
0.00234641    0.00208303    (-0.00026338)
0.00236026    0.00199255    (-0.00036771)
0.00217719    0.00217718    (-0.00000001)
0.00373447    0.00380921    (+0.00007474)
0.00216618    0.00215662    (-0.00000956)
0.00223093    0.00153012    (-0.00070081)
0.00225072    0.00225071    (-0.00000001)
0.00239262    0.00230805    (-0.00008457)
0.00234718    0.00204312    (-0.00030406)
0.00227435    0.00210339    (-0.00017096)
0.00234844    0.00253735    (+0.00018891)
0.00216790    0.00216790    (spot on)
0.00235738    0.00252040    (+0.00016302)
0.00204599    0.00173246    (-0.00031353)
0.00216293    0.00203870    (-0.00012423)
0.00259688    0.00258963    (-0.00000725)
0.00226194    0.00252865    (+0.00026671)
0.00227676    0.00229782    (+0.00002106)
0.00225564    0.00250850    (+0.00025286)
0.00217043    0.00236650    (+0.00019607)
0.00212075    0.00204352    (-0.00007723)
0.00291798    0.00283840    (-0.00007958)
0.00215613    0.00222617    (+0.00007004)
0.00203890    0.00180461    (-0.00023429)
0.00225685    0.00228657    (+0.00002972)
0.00224263    0.00206756    (-0.00017507)
0.00226371    0.00219391    (-0.0000698)
TOTAL           TOTAL           TOTAL DIFF
0.06937445    0.06738754    0.00198691 (OR $0.23)

On average, I should have got 0.002312482 per block

So in 30 blocks, I lost less than one average payment, which doesn't really worry me that much. If I was on some other pools, I'd lose the extra (and more) in fees.

So when I commented on the ups & downs in calculation - I wondered merely if anyone actually took into consideration the positive differences.
Ok, I may have put it into less inflammatory words, I guess. Sorry for that.

Friends?

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May 26, 2013, 11:28:18 PM
 #9005

ok, I went through my rewards for the last 30 blocks, and this is my result;

Should have   Actually got
0.00214735    0.00216359    (+0.00001624)
0.00210076    0.00169320    (-0.00040756)
0.00220479    0.00232812    (+0.00012333)
0.00234641    0.00208303    (-0.00026338)
0.00236026    0.00199255    (-0.00036771)
0.00217719    0.00217718    (-0.00000001)
0.00373447    0.00380921    (+0.00007474)
0.00216618    0.00215662    (-0.00000956)
0.00223093    0.00153012    (-0.00070081)
0.00225072    0.00225071    (-0.00000001)
0.00239262    0.00230805    (-0.00008457)
0.00234718    0.00204312    (-0.00030406)
0.00227435    0.00210339    (-0.00017096)
0.00234844    0.00253735    (+0.00018891)
0.00216790    0.00216790    (spot on)
0.00235738    0.00252040    (+0.00016302)
0.00204599    0.00173246    (-0.00031353)
0.00216293    0.00203870    (-0.00012423)
0.00259688    0.00258963    (-0.00000725)
0.00226194    0.00252865    (+0.00026671)
0.00227676    0.00229782    (+0.00002106)
0.00225564    0.00250850    (+0.00025286)
0.00217043    0.00236650    (+0.00019607)
0.00212075    0.00204352    (-0.00007723)
0.00291798    0.00283840    (-0.00007958)
0.00215613    0.00222617    (+0.00007004)
0.00203890    0.00180461    (-0.00023429)
0.00225685    0.00228657    (+0.00002972)
0.00224263    0.00206756    (-0.00017507)
0.00226371    0.00219391    (-0.0000698)
TOTAL           TOTAL           TOTAL DIFF
0.06937445    0.06738754    0.00198691 (OR $0.23)

On average, I should have got 0.002312482 per block

So in 30 blocks, I lost less than one average payment, which doesn't really worry me that much. If I was on some other pools, I'd lose the extra (and more) in fees.

So when I commented on the ups & downs in calculation - I wondered merely if anyone actually took into consideration the positive differences.
Ok, I may have put it into less inflammatory words, I guess. Sorry for that.

Friends?
You were lucky. I don't have time to do what you did but you have last line in statistic.
Total:   360867254   50048   0.09695804       757.36552008
So 50048/360867254*757.36552008=0,105037598 and I got 0.09695804.

And that is not full 30 rounds. I was testing if Slush fixed the pool for about 24 hours and about 6 hours was with all miners and lost out on 0.01 BTC. So if I calculate for all miners on this pool for 24 hours that would be 0.04BTC0.03BTC. And if you take 30 days that is 1.2 0.9BTC. If this is not a problem for you it is for me. This is more then 150120$ if every day would be like this one... I can't afford that.

EDIT:And I moved miners in in a middle of a Block and got practicably full reword since I did 1 hour in the run and it was 3 hour run. So teoretecly I lost even more in reword system crash.
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May 26, 2013, 11:33:22 PM
 #9006

Well, of course, when my ASICs arrive, it will be of a lot more concern to me.

I guess my low hashrate (and - believe it or not - easy going nature) clouds my judgement a bit.

I wonder what is causing the miscalculations?

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nottm28
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May 26, 2013, 11:36:01 PM
 #9007

Using a bit of simple java to read slush's api - I am now storing all results going forward - here's what I have for the last 96 blocks...

Pretty consistent I find... Note the result for 237575 - I don't mind admitting this was way more than expected and others complained about this block.

block=start_time,duration,reward,hashes,luck,difficulty,confirmations
238076=2013-05-26 22:26:09,0:42:39,0.00722143,10284,0.93,12153411,
238072=2013-05-26 21:43:30,0:35:45,0.00809340,10804,1.03,12153411,
238067=2013-05-26 21:07:45,2:23:55,0.00704795,10595,1.08,12153411,
238052=2013-05-26 18:43:50,0:20:55,0.00641399,10583,0.91,12153411,
238048=2013-05-26 18:22:55,2:14:21,0.00717486,10482,0.94,12153411,
238033=2013-05-26 16:08:34,1:11:51,0.00704562,11814,0.88,12153411,
238029=2013-05-26 14:56:43,2:04:08,0.00745546,10597,0.90,12153411,
238017=2013-05-26 12:52:35,1:14:40,0.00619396,10766,0.88,12153411,
238003=2013-05-26 11:37:55,1:21:22,0.00620576,10772,0.89,12153411,
237996=2013-05-26 10:16:33,1:24:44,0.00733699,10410,0.88,12153411,
237983=2013-05-26 08:51:49,2:13:47,0.00743041,9189,0.90,12153411,
237971=2013-05-26 06:38:02,3:11:30,0.00717705,10238,1.02,12153411,
237951=2013-05-26 03:26:32,2:54:45,0.00710204,10340,1.41,12153411,
237930=2013-05-26 00:31:47,0:33:15,0.00847152,10582,1.08,12153411,
237928=2013-05-25 23:58:32,0:25:35,0.00719589,10502,1.01,12153411,
237921=2013-05-25 23:32:57,1:00:46,0.00725148,10399,0.99,12153411,
237915=2013-05-25 22:32:11,0:26:24,0.00692039,10658,1.01,12153411,
237911=2013-05-25 22:05:47,0:39:06,0.00715212,10543,0.94,12153411,
237904=2013-05-25 21:26:41,0:01:08,0.00719272,10639,0.86,12153411,
237903=2013-05-25 21:25:33,0:28:52,0.00755953,10650,0.86,12153411,
237901=2013-05-25 20:56:41,4:16:32,0.00771986,10560,0.95,12153411,
237878=2013-05-25 16:40:09,2:42:32,0.00676582,10401,0.98,11187257,
237854=2013-05-25 13:57:37,1:33:22,0.00725034,10533,0.99,11187257,
237840=2013-05-25 12:24:15,1:04:10,0.00730492,10564,1.09,11187257,
237833=2013-05-25 11:20:05,0:01:38,0.00736490,10489,1.14,11187257,
237832=2013-05-25 11:18:27,3:04:34,0.00771931,10504,1.14,11187257,
237818=2013-05-25 08:13:53,0:08:27,0.00794650,9750,1.14,11187257,
237817=2013-05-25 08:05:26,1:39:50,0.00806913,9621,1.14,11187257,
237807=2013-05-25 06:25:36,0:29:47,0.00783007,10626,1.13,11187257,
237802=2013-05-25 05:55:49,0:32:47,0.00780047,10622,0.93,11187257,
237799=2013-05-25 05:23:02,0:18:18,0.00785517,10668,0.90,11187257,
237796=2013-05-25 05:04:44,0:44:33,0.00764717,10544,0.87,11187257,
237791=2013-05-25 04:20:11,0:13:41,0.00746889,10642,0.81,11187257,
237789=2013-05-25 04:06:30,0:39:30,0.00735985,10590,0.81,11187257,
237787=2013-05-25 03:27:00,0:05:17,0.00755139,10640,0.77,11187257,
237785=2013-05-25 03:21:43,0:15:41,0.00727747,10611,0.78,11187257,
237784=2013-05-25 03:06:02,1:57:45,0.01005058,10515,0.73,11187257,
237770=2013-05-25 01:08:17,7:13:34,0.00784526,10564,0.96,11187257,
237719=2013-05-24 17:54:43,0:02:26,0.00866961,10413,1.21,11187257,
237718=2013-05-24 17:52:17,0:04:50,0.00671417,10399,1.21,11187257,
237717=2013-05-24 17:47:27,4:38:12,0.00875716,10376,1.08,11187257,
237692=2013-05-24 13:09:15,0:00:47,0.00659933,10251,1.11,11187257,
237691=2013-05-24 13:08:28,0:21:19,0.00809546,10259,1.11,11187257,
237687=2013-05-24 12:47:09,0:49:59,0.00851697,10232,1.10,11187257,
237682=2013-05-24 11:57:10,0:17:29,0.00787294,10179,1.08,11187257,
237679=2013-05-24 11:39:41,1:46:36,0.00817001,10088,1.09,11187257,
237666=2013-05-24 09:53:05,1:41:22,0.00733902,10022,1.15,11187257,
237652=2013-05-24 08:11:43,0:18:19,0.00839849,9551,1.15,11187257,
237648=2013-05-24 07:53:24,0:05:31,0.00743627,9637,1.03,11187257,
237647=2013-05-24 07:47:53,1:48:51,0.00808714,9718,1.03,11187257,
237634=2013-05-24 05:59:02,5:59:04,0.00805881,9854,1.37,11187257,
237593=2013-05-23 23:59:58,2:17:42,0.00833270,9817,1.45,11187257,
237575=2013-05-23 21:34:50,0:07:57,0.02476670,10034,1.38,11187257,
237574=2013-05-23 21:42:16,0:07:26,0.00742560,9665,1.38,11187257,
237573=2013-05-23 21:26:53,0:06:46,0.00705477,9984,1.38,11187257,
237571=2013-05-23 21:20:07,0:28:39,0.00750324,9964,1.38,11187257,
237567=2013-05-23 20:51:28,2:06:53,0.00531363,9869,1.32,11187257,
237559=2013-05-23 18:44:35,1:40:46,0.00840785,9782,1.36,11187257,
237546=2013-05-23 17:03:49,0:12:37,0.00849736,10025,1.22,11187257,
237543=2013-05-23 16:51:12,0:18:22,0.00750947,10025,1.17,11187257,
237541=2013-05-23 16:32:50,0:09:48,0.00772226,9895,1.09,11187257,
237540=2013-05-23 16:23:02,0:37:17,0.00812397,9867,1.09,11187257,
237534=2013-05-23 15:45:45,3:00:18,0.00925976,9716,1.18,11187257,
237517=2013-05-23 12:45:27,0:15:24,0.00806292,9663,1.23,11187257,
237515=2013-05-23 12:30:03,0:41:01,0.00737965,9567,1.18,11187257,
237506=2013-05-23 11:49:02,1:40:20,0.00873779,9401,1.20,11187257,
237495=2013-05-23 10:08:42,0:37:26,0.00868290,9416,1.26,11187257,
237493=2013-05-23 09:31:16,2:23:19,0.00842615,9206,1.35,11187257,
237468=2013-05-23 07:07:57,0:26:47,0.00878185,9515,1.18,11187257,
237463=2013-05-23 06:41:10,0:58:02,0.00763858,9457,1.17,11187257,
237455=2013-05-23 05:43:08,0:12:24,0.00729014,9475,1.06,11187257,
237454=2013-05-23 05:30:44,0:37:06,0.00768914,9348,1.06,11187257,
237447=2013-05-23 04:53:38,3:17:55,0.00802322,8912,1.17,11187257,
237430=2013-05-23 01:35:43,0:04:00,0.00742885,9404,1.06,11187257,
237429=2013-05-23 01:31:43,0:06:52,0.00844826,9387,1.06,11187257,
237427=2013-05-23 01:24:51,0:13:37,0.00872385,9399,1.02,11187257,
237426=2013-05-23 01:11:14,0:25:39,0.00872593,9450,1.00,11187257,
237423=2013-05-23 00:45:35,0:07:22,0.00838761,9474,1.03,11187257,
237422=2013-05-23 00:38:13,4:04:19,0.00840443,9444,1.03,11187257,
237404=2013-05-22 20:33:54,2:16:21,0.00872369,9649,1.03,11187257,
237396=2013-05-22 18:17:33,3:04:10,0.00841272,9377,1.10,11187257,
237373=2013-05-22 15:13:23,0:16:44,0.00714505,9546,1.06,11187257,
237371=2013-05-22 14:56:39,1:26:03,0.00824117,9459,1.07,11187257,
237358=2013-05-22 13:30:36,0:18:05,0.00772997,9566,0.90,11187257,
237355=2013-05-22 13:12:31,1:26:50,0.01115425,9484,0.90,11187257,
237343=2013-05-22 11:45:41,0:09:11,0.00820818,9427,0.90,11187257,
237340=2013-05-22 11:36:30,1:28:06,0.00911549,9351,0.84,11187257,
237331=2013-05-22 10:08:24,0:05:28,0.00823078,9468,0.74,11187257,
237330=2013-05-22 10:02:56,0:45:39,0.00851554,9419,0.74,11187257,
237322=2013-05-22 09:17:17,3:48:29,0.00851632,9354,0.80,11187257,
237296=2013-05-22 05:28:48,1:38:40,0.00833779,9147,0.77,11187257,
237286=2013-05-22 03:50:08,2:18:08,0.02264307,9074,0.77,11187257,
237274=2013-05-22 01:32:00,0:22:36,0.00856823,9147,0.66,11187257,
237270=2013-05-22 01:09:24,0:44:11,0.00845058,9200,0.66,11187257,
237265=2013-05-22 00:25:13,2:00:35,0.00891731,9017,0.65,11187257,

[EDIT] my post is longer than yours Smiley

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oroboras
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May 26, 2013, 11:39:25 PM
 #9008

I wonder if the total volume is balanced out across the pool?

i.e. if x people are being underpaid, are y people being overpaid on that block, equal to the full volume of BTC per that block?

Or is there a deficit?

Have I said something wonderful or witty? It's unlikely, but if so all donations:
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May 26, 2013, 11:50:21 PM
 #9009

I wonder if the total volume is balanced out across the pool?

i.e. if x people are being underpaid, are y people being overpaid on that block, equal to the full volume of BTC per that block?

Or is there a deficit?

Probably more than 30 pages ago did we see these problems happen for some people while others get extra. When the issues were new, some reported getting just dust and someone else chimed in "I guess I got all that lol".  Just last night I saw my estimate go to .22 BTC (it's usually around .0022) but the round had the nerve to continue another hour and I got a normal reward. Maybe this is all an elaborate bonus system  Shocked

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May 26, 2013, 11:59:27 PM
 #9010

I wonder if the total volume is balanced out across the pool?

i.e. if x people are being underpaid, are y people being overpaid on that block, equal to the full volume of BTC per that block?

Or is there a deficit?
No it is balanced out. nottm28 is example of this. He got 4 times normal on one of the blocks and it didn't get fixed so my guess is that system didn't detect a mistake. As I was saying. I saw 20% mistake not being fixed so for positive mistake this number must be much higher. But the number of underpaid is bigger then number of overpaid. I newer got overpaid or even see mistake in positive direction so I guess it must be a number of underpaid allot bigger then overpaid or they are always the same peoples.

EDIT: Probably if I would not be afraid that Slush will fixed this I could say to myself that it will balance out. But Slush might came back and start taking care of his pool and if I would be just loosing out till then... Well you get the idea...
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May 27, 2013, 12:03:10 AM
 #9011

I wonder if the total volume is balanced out across the pool?

i.e. if x people are being underpaid, are y people being overpaid on that block, equal to the full volume of BTC per that block?

Or is there a deficit?
No it is balanced out. nottm28 is example of this. He got 4 times normal on one of the blocks and it didn't get fixed so my guess is that system didn't detect a mistake. As I was saying. I saw 20% mistake not being fixed so for positive mistake this number must be much higher. But the number of underpaid is bigger then number of overpaid. I newer got overpaid or even see mistake in positive direction so I guess it must be a number of underpaid allot bigger then overpaid or they are always the same peoples.

I guess it may is occur by miner, rather than worker - so someone with a larger share rate has a better chance of gaining from the error.
 Thanks for the info.

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May 27, 2013, 12:15:05 AM
 #9012

I wonder if the total volume is balanced out across the pool?

i.e. if x people are being underpaid, are y people being overpaid on that block, equal to the full volume of BTC per that block?

Or is there a deficit?
No it is balanced out. nottm28 is example of this. He got 4 times normal on one of the blocks and it didn't get fixed so my guess is that system didn't detect a mistake. As I was saying. I saw 20% mistake not being fixed so for positive mistake this number must be much higher. But the number of underpaid is bigger then number of overpaid. I newer got overpaid or even see mistake in positive direction so I guess it must be a number of underpaid allot bigger then overpaid or they are always the same peoples.

I guess it may is occur by miner, rather than worker - so someone with a larger share rate has a better chance of gaining from the error.
 Thanks for the info.

I have had several blocks where my reward was well under too - but these were prior to java app recording the results so I cannot show. And as 'autonomous42' pointed out when he quoted someone as saying 'lol I got the lot' - that was one of the blocks where my reward was almost zarro. So I think we can assume that for the occasional problem blocks, someone in the pool is benefiting. But I guess it balances out over time...

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May 27, 2013, 12:16:44 AM
 #9013

I wonder if the total volume is balanced out across the pool?

i.e. if x people are being underpaid, are y people being overpaid on that block, equal to the full volume of BTC per that block?

Or is there a deficit?
No it is balanced out. nottm28 is example of this. He got 4 times normal on one of the blocks and it didn't get fixed so my guess is that system didn't detect a mistake. As I was saying. I saw 20% mistake not being fixed so for positive mistake this number must be much higher. But the number of underpaid is bigger then number of overpaid. I newer got overpaid or even see mistake in positive direction so I guess it must be a number of underpaid allot bigger then overpaid or they are always the same peoples.

EDIT: Probably if I would not be afraid that Slush will fixed this I could say to myself that it will balance out. But Slush might came back and start taking care of his pool and if I would be just loosing out till then... Well you get the idea...

yep

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May 27, 2013, 12:38:59 AM
 #9014

Only once did I show a larger than normal payout...it was about 20 times normal...everyone was claiming the block was off and it was adjusted and my payout went back to normal. Now I had a lot of questionable lower ones that were never adjusted and have had a lot that were adjusted. And had the one that was never posted but Slush made up for on the next one. I guess with so many problems it kind of makes us all look for mistakes even if they are there or not.  I do notice my payouts seem lower when the pool hash rate is higher ?
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May 27, 2013, 12:41:27 AM
 #9015

Well, of course, when my ASICs arrive, it will be of a lot more concern to me.

I guess my low hashrate (and - believe it or not - easy going nature) clouds my judgement a bit.

I wonder what is causing the miscalculations?
From what I can see and was reported on forum is the reset of the score. Some workers don't get resetted. And since they have really hi score compeer to the rest of the workers they got a big reword. I have no idea why... But if I have to guess I would say they just send a share when a reset accrued and after the reset system re-entered a previous score. But this is only speculation...
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May 27, 2013, 12:43:48 AM
 #9016

I'm happy to post my java code here if others want to see what they 'really' get as time goes by...

[EDIT] you just need to run it on a box that has 24x7 internet access - i.e. one of your mining servers...

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May 27, 2013, 12:44:00 AM
 #9017

Only once did I show a larger than normal payout...it was about 20 times normal...everyone was claiming the block was off and it was adjusted and my payout went back to normal. Now I had a lot of questionable lower ones that were never adjusted and have had a lot that were adjusted. And had the one that was never poasted but Slush made up for. I guess with so many problems it kind of makes us all look for mistakes even if they are there or not.  I do notice my payouts seem lower when the pool hash rate is higher ?
Yes payouts are smaller but you get more of them... So it is the same. But if you are looking only last days you need to know that difficulty went up.
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May 27, 2013, 12:52:27 AM
 #9018

Using a bit of simple java to read slush's api - I am now storing all results going forward - here's what I have for the last 96 blocks...

Pretty consistent I find... Note the result for 237575 - I don't mind admitting this was way more than expected and others complained about this block.

block=start_time,duration,reward,hashes,luck,difficulty,confirmations
238076=2013-05-26 22:26:09,0:42:39,0.00722143,10284,0.93,12153411,
(...)

[EDIT] my post is longer than yours Smiley

I store stats of blocks found by the pool since the DDoS mid April, and also plot various charts via gnuplot every 6 hours - all automated via cron & a couple of scripts.
I also include the difficulty increase so I can correlate it with the trends in my cumulative reward. But I do not think it would be a bright idea to paste all the data right here Smiley

Using http://pastebin.com/ or similar services for bulk data could help a lot in keeping posts short and to the point.

Cheers,
   T
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May 27, 2013, 12:53:32 AM
 #9019

Only once did I show a larger than normal payout...it was about 20 times normal...everyone was claiming the block was off and it was adjusted and my payout went back to normal. Now I had a lot of questionable lower ones that were never adjusted and have had a lot that were adjusted. And had the one that was never poasted but Slush made up for. I guess with so many problems it kind of makes us all look for mistakes even if they are there or not.  I do notice my payouts seem lower when the pool hash rate is higher ?
Yes payouts are smaller but you get more of them... So it is the same. But if you are looking only last days you need to know that difficulty went up.

Yes I seen the difficulty went up and do understand the payouts are smaller and that we should find more with the higher hash rates.... I guess it all seems right .. but I  like when the hash rate drops below 9500GHS as my payout goes up and then hope for those 2 -5 mins blocks!

I am still mining and plan on staying but it does concern me when it took so long to get people to agree that we have a problem as we did last week with all the invailds and to understand when certain block payouts are not  normal at all.
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May 27, 2013, 12:57:50 AM
 #9020



[EDIT] my post is longer than yours Smiley

Show off Tongue

So are your payouts.

And your hashrate.

I feel so inadequate now Cry

C'mon ASIC's, arrive already XD

[EDIT] This is a humourous post, btw Cheesy

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